Urban city game: 3.5 or Pathfinder?


Advice


So I have been planning a urban city game for a long time now. I had originally designed the game using mostly 3.5 rules (I am using the pathfinder feat progression since I always thought it is a much better progression and is only 2 more feats that the 3.5). The game would start around lvl 5-7 and probably end somewhere in the mid teens.

Now the reason I was using 3.5 was because I felt that PCs in Pathfinder have a lot more powerful abilities than their 3.5 counterparts. But with the recent release of Intrigue and a player who thinks the game would be better in pathfinder I figured I would ask the paizo hivemind their opinions.

So the real question would be the following; are pathfinder PCs too powerful to be contained within a single city urban adventure?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Yes. Even 3.5 characters are too powerful at those levels to be contained.


Pathfinder characters are a bit more powerful, usually some more hp and some extra class abilities and a bit higher stats. That isn't what really makes them 'uncontainable' though.

The first thing is spells, which by and large are unchanged between Pathfinder and D&D. Starting with about level 5 spells, things start getting pretty powerful. The second thing would be magic items, especially AC items, making a lowish level city guard unable to hit a character about when they hit level 10 without rolling a 20. This is also unchanged from 3.5.

For an urban game, I would recommend starting a bit lower, level 3 at the highest and use the E6 or E8 rules (basically, characters only advance to level 6 or 8, after that they just get some bonus feats). If I started about level 1, I would probably choose E8, so they at least get some advancement.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

PF is much better than 3.5. :-)

But if your main concern is having city guards remain a threat at high levels, and you want to limit PC transportation, 5th Edition might be the way to go. Bounded Accuracy means even CR 1/8 guards can hit 20th level PCs, and teleport is a 7th level spell, not 5th level.

But PF has lots of Urban rules, like Knowledge local and nobility.

Shadow Lodge

No, PF characters are not too powerful for urban games. I've GM'd one from level 5-13. Tons of fun.

Now, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "contained."

You might have issues restraining the PCs if they are inclined to cause trouble - though even then, you could just make sure that there are enough powerful NPCs in law enforcement to shut down the PCs if they go on a murderhobo spree. You're not going to be able to prevent them from leaving the city if they want to leave. This won't be a problem, however, if you make sure that your players are on board with playing within the setting rather than doing the bull in a china shop routine.

And there certainly is room within a single city to contain enough adventure to satisfy a Pathfinder party. You can have thieves' guilds or sinister cults running all sorts of plots, kidnappings, hauntings, malfunctioning constructs run amok. Enemy forces can attack the city from outside. Your party can take on business ventures or seek leadership positions in local institutions. In one of the more memorable plotlines in my campaign, the party was manipulated by a disguised succubus into eliminating her rivals. They clued in shortly before the succubus enacted her plan to assassinate the crown prince, and defeated her. If it's a long-running game you might consider having an occasional session outside the city for change of pace, but it depends on what your players like.

If you are comfortable running an urban game in 3.5 I don't think you'd have trouble with PF.


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In my experience 3.5 characters could be min-max'd to much more extreme levels than nearly anything I've seen in Pathfinder, though most of that was done by taking a multitude of prestige classes which were extremely front-loaded.

Pathfinder instead made staying a single class good, and made prestige classes suck.

Overall, Pathfinder has a lower ceiling from maximum power level (there are no Pun-Puns here) but the average power level is higher now because single classes characters can actually be very strong and most classes even without archetypes are good.

So I'm not sure what you mean when you say you're worried about Pathfinder over 3.5. Unless you just ran super restricted with the sources you allowed I can't imagine Pathfinder characters outdoing 3.5 characters.

I will say, since Paizo just released Ultimate Intrigue if I wanted to run an urban intrigue campaign that is certainly what I would turn to.


generally, the differences between the two are minor enough that a game you could run in 3.5 could just as easily be run in pathfinder. If you've written the game with one set of assumptions, stick with them, but borrow liberally from other sources if they have neat things?


Hells Rebels is an urban campaign that runs from 1st to 15-17th level.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Depends on the level range you plan to run.

But players could adventure in the one city from level 1 to 20 if you design the city to have challenges and threats that go all the way from 1 to 20.

Yes, at a certain point your regular guardsmen is just going to be straight up outclassed by the PCs. In the same way a beat cop is completely outclassed by Iron Man and Captain America.

But you're still going to get supervillains, dragons disguised as people, outsiders, high level characters etc.

If you're worried about not being able to control your player characters... well what would let you do that in a non-urban adventure?

It's up to the players to choose not to abuse their incredible power.


It really comes down to, for me at least, whether or not you are willing to give the NPCs powerful abilities. If you have NPCs who make full usage of whatever funky mechanics I have yet to read in Ultimate Intrigue, then they would be around about on part with the PCs or even better at navigating that environment.


While pathfinder characters may be slightly more powerful than their 3.5 counter parts, so are the NPC. As long as you are using the same rules system for both PC’s and NPC’s it should not be a problem. Keep in mind that everything the players can use is fair game for your NPC’s.

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