Legal Animal Companions in Core

[AC: WormFangCrushEat]

Is the list of ACs in the Bestiary 1, page 316, legal?

Thanks.

[Gary Bush]

I don't think it is. I believe the only legal ACs is found under the Druid section in the Core Rulebook.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

Yep, only the Core Rulebook or things found on chronicles are legal options. Bestiary 1 isn't the CRB, so they aren't legal.

[Tempest_Knight]

Here is the pertinent paragraph...

Pathfinder Roleplaying Guild Guide v7.0, p20 wrote:

Core Mode play characters may not use any feat, trait, equipment, magic item, skill, or any other rule item from a resource outside the Core Campaign Resources unless it appears on a core play Chronicle sheet. For spells and class features that reference the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, that sourcebook may be utilized with the restrictions noted in Additional Resources. Any item appearing on a Chronicle sheet earned in Core Mode play, regardless of source, is allowed to be used by a Core Mode character, except Chronicle sheets that open new races.

And here is the important sentence...

Quote:

For spells and class features that reference the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, that sourcebook may be utilized with the restrictions noted in Additional Resources.

The Blog post clarifies; "That would include, but is not limited to, animal companions, special abilities, summon spells, etc... Only the Bestiary 1 is available for these extra options outside of the Core Rulebook."

This does seem to state that the Legal Animal Companions from the Bestiary (1) are allowed in CORE play.

~

I would not mind a specific ruling though...

[Gary Bush]

Ok so what AC is listed in core but not defined in the druid section, thus needing to go to Bestiary 1?

From what I can see, the Ranger can select a Dire Rat. Stats for the Dire Rat are not listed in the druid section as the choices that a druid has to select an AC. Are there others?

High level paladin's would need to go to Bestiary 1 to get the the celestial template I think.

But I don't see the rules opening the ACs listed on page 316 in Bestiary 1 for core players.

[Tempest_Knight]

Now we are moving from Rules to Content.

I haven't audited the Bestiary to determine, what, if anything, is gained from the Bestiary.

I just posted up the relevant Rules/Rulings on the issue.

[Tempest_Knight]

Having had a chance to look through the Bestiary and the Additional Resources list...

From the Bestiary you would gain;
Ankylosaurus, Aurochs, Bison, Brachiosaurus, Dire Bat, Dire Rat, Dolphin, Elasmusaurus, Electric Eel, Elephant, Giant Frog, Giant Moray Eel, Goblin Dog, Hyena, Monitor Lizard, Octopus, Orca, Pteranodon, Rhinoceros, Roc, Squid, Stegosaurs, Triceratops, and Tyrannosaurs.

A total of 24 additional options.

Given the rules I quoted above, and the FACT that the Bestiary is specifically referenced by the Druid's Animal Companion class feature, they ARE legal.

~

Yes, 100%, unequivocally, undeniably, yes the Animal Companions listed in the back of the Bestiary (1) are Legal options in Core Mode play.

The Guide grants limited access to the Bestiary (1), and the Animal Companions are under that limited access.

[Yiroep]

As a note, there's another thread about this.

[Gary Bush]

Tempest,

I disagree with you on the reading of the Additional Resources Core Blog. The Core Rulebook is source document. If someone needs more information about a monster or AC, they can go to the Bestary 1 for that additional information. It does not open BEstary 1 completely, only as a reference to a specific item (ie a Dire Rat for Rangers).

This being said, in the other thread that Andrew linked, someone pointed out in that in the Core Rulebook under Druids on page 53, the "animal companions listed here are by no means the only ones available - additional animal companion types can be found in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary."

This, to me, would open the ACs in the Bestiary 1 to core players.

But there are others who disagree and as far as I can determine, official comment has not been made on this question.

In summary, I believe the answer to the OP is Yes the ACs on Page 316 of bestiary are legal for core. This is a change in my position on this question and based upon the sentence I quoted above.

[Tempest_Knight]

The only way to disallowed the Bestiary Animal Companions is to ignore the rules for Core Mode play.

So, until there is Official rulings otherwise, we are required to play by the rules.

I'll compile and write up a clear post for the other thread.

[Gary Bush]

Tempest_Knight wrote:

The only way to disallowed the Bestiary Animal Companions is to ignore the rules for Core Mode play.

So, until there is Official rulings otherwise, we are required to play by the rules.

I'll compile and write up a clear post for the other thread.

I agree. To that end I started a FAQ request thread on this question.

[Tempest_Knight]

Just for thoroughness...

The Rules is 3 Easy Steps;

1> The Allowance

Pathfinder Roleplaying Guild Guide v7.0, p20 wrote:

Core Mode play characters may not use any feat, trait, equipment, magic item, skill, or any other rule item from a resource outside the Core Campaign Resources unless it appears on a core play Chronicle sheet. For spells and class features that reference the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, that sourcebook may be utilized with the restrictions noted in Additional Resources. Any item appearing on a Chronicle sheet earned in Core Mode play, regardless of source, is allowed to be used by a Core Mode character, except Chronicle sheets that open new races.

And here is the important sentence...

Quote:

For spells and class features that reference the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, that sourcebook may be utilized with the restrictions noted in Additional Resources.

The Blog post clarifies; "That would include, but is not limited to, animal companions, special abilities, summon spells, etc... Only the Bestiary 1 is available for these extra options outside of the Core Rulebook."

MEANING: If a class feature references the Bestiary, the bestiary is a legal CORE MODE source with the usual restriction found in the Additional Resources document.

~

2> The Reference

Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, p53, under Animal Choices, last paragraph wrote:

The animal companions listed here are by no means the only ones available - additional animal companion types can be found in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary. Some of the special attacks and qualities possessed by animals are covered in more detail there as well.

MEANING: The Druid specifically calls out the Bestiary as having additional Animal Companion choices, as well as clarification of aspects of CRB options.

~

3> The Validation

Additional Resources, Bestiary entry, Animal Companion section wrote:

Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus

MEANING: All of the additional animal companion types found in the Bestiary are legal.

~

CONCLUSION: The rules are clear, if a little difficult to find. The Bestiary Animal Companions are legal.

~

I would not mind a specific ruling though...

[Gary Bush]

Point 1, on it's own, is not sufficient to allow using the ACs listed in Bestiary 1 in Core. It is because of point 2, a specific reference to Bestiary 1, does the ACs become valid.

So we agree. And a confirmation that this interpretation is valid is desirable.

[Tempest_Knight]

It takes all three steps...

Step one outlines the allowance and requirements needed to be meet for the allowance.

Step two is showing the condition that meets the requirement.

Step three is the final required validation.

~

Without the first step, we don't get to the second.

[Gary Bush]

It is interesting how we agree on the same point yet we keep arguing.

[Tempest_Knight]

It is a matter of syntax...

You keep saying point 1 isn't enough to make the allowance.

I keep pointing out that point 1 sets up the allowance. Points 2 & 3, are just showing proof/meeting the requirements. Without point 1, there is no allowance.

The three steps can be used to verify any content from the Bestiary.

Step 1 is the allowance, so arguably it is only two steps, but it works better as three, with the first step being a reminder of the allowance.

Step 2 is checking for references to the Bestiary for content that expands on CRB content. As required by the allowance quoted in Step 1.

Step 3 is checking the Additional Resources document to validate that it is an otherwise legal option,mread not banned. As required by the allowance quoted in Step 1.

This is the basic framework used to validate the rules... Most people already do this without really thinking about it... I just wrote it out.

[GreySector]

Gary Bush wrote:

Point 1, on it's own, is not sufficient to allow using the ACs listed in Bestiary 1 in Core. It is because of point 2, a specific reference to Bestiary 1, does the ACs become valid.

This is correct. The druid lists which animal companions are available. In order to actually play one, you need to reference the Bestiary for their stats. At that point the Bestiary becomes both a necessary and a legal resource.

Barring special access, in core you can only have the animal companions listed in the druid class description.

[Gary Bush]

Michael,

What about point 2 that states there are additional animal companions to be found in the Bestiary?

The druid section has enough of the basic stats that the Bestiary is really not needed. The only time the bestiary is really needed is for rangers who want to use a dire rat.

[andreww]

Michael Eshleman wrote:

This is correct. The druid lists which animal companions are available. In order to actually play one, you need to reference the Bestiary for their stats. At that point the Bestiary becomes both a necessary and a legal resource.

Barring special access, in core you can only have the animal companions listed in the druid class description.

I don't believe that to be true.

PFS Season 7 Guide, page 20, Core Mode Rules

Quote:

Core Mode play characters may not use any feat, trait, equipment, magic item, skill, or any other rule item from a resource outside the Core Campaign Resources unless it appears on a core play Chronicle sheet. For spells and class features that reference the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, that sourcebook may be utilized with the restrictions noted in Additional Resources.

CRB Page 53 Druid Class Entry

Quote:

The animal companions listed here are by no means the only ones available—additional animal companion types can be found in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary. Some of the special attacks and qualities possessed by animals are covered in more detail there as well

Additional Resources: Bestiary 1

Quote:

Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus

Those things taken together make it fairly clear to me that Bestiary 1 AC's are intended to be legal, just as you can use it for Summon Monster or Elemental Body. If that was not the intention then the Guide does a very bad job of making that clear.

[Tempest_Knight]

Michael Eshleman wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

Point 1, on it's own, is not sufficient to allow using the ACs listed in Bestiary 1 in Core. It is because of point 2, a specific reference to Bestiary 1, does the ACs become valid.

This is correct. The druid lists which animal companions are available. In order to actually play one, you need to reference the Bestiary for their stats. At that point the Bestiary becomes both a necessary and a legal resource.

Barring special access, in core you can only have the animal companions listed in the druid class description.

i am trying to understand your position...

Are you disagreeing with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Guild Guide, the Core Rulebook, or the Additional Resources list?

[John Compton]

The language in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide phrased in the way it is so that should the Core Rulebook not address how a rule or option operates, the Bestiary can serve as a reference. That covers things like the Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack feats, which appear in the Bestiary only. This also allows the summon monster and summon nature's ally spells function, as the Bestiary is necessary to procure the creatures' statistics and operate the spells.

It may be that while reading through the animal companion entry, I missed the last paragraph under Animal Choices, which plugs the Bestiary as a great place to find other animal companion choices.

Your analysis of how those two elements overlap is astute and logical. It just happens to not line up with the intention of the text in the Guide. The intention is that the Bestiary animal companions are not available in the Core Campaign. If that means we need to clean up the language in the next iteration, so be it.

[Andrew L Klein]

I had no cares either way, but I do have to laugh that the people most diehard, some to the point of insulting, generally seemed to be on the side of "it's so blatantly obvious it's all allowed", and it's not.

Makes me finally OK to build a Druid now just because I have an answer either way.

[Cronge]

John Compton wrote:

The language in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide phrased in the way it is so that should the Core Rulebook not address how a rule or option operates, the Bestiary can serve as a reference. That covers things like the Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack feats, which appear in the Bestiary only. This also allows the summon monster and summon nature's ally spells function, as the Bestiary is necessary to procure the creatures' statistics and operate the spells.

It may be that while reading through the animal companion entry, I missed the last paragraph under Animal Choices, which plugs the Bestiary as a great place to find other animal companion choices.

Your analysis of how those two elements overlap is astute and logical. It just happens to not line up with the intention of the text in the Guide. The intention is that the Bestiary animal companions are not available in the Core Campaign. If that means we need to clean up the language in the next iteration, so be it.

Why does this sound like Rules As Intended when PFS is Rules As Written?

Nothing should change at all.

[Andy Brown]

It appears the rules weren't written clearly enough to avoid different people interpreting them differently.

It's not so much a change as a clarification

[Andrew L Klein]

It is as written Cronge, it's just that what's written could easily be read two different ways.

One way is that you can only use individual options that are referenced in the Bestiary, the other is that because the Bestiary itself is referenced, that makes the whole thing legal. It's all a matter of how you read it, neither is adding any extra in depth reading of the rule, it's just two different ways of reading it and now we know which one is right.

[Tempest_Knight]

Thank you for the post, Mr. Compton.

This does require a change in the wording, though just including an exception stating that the Bestiary is not meant to add to the options provided by the Core Rulebook, should be sufficient.

Or, that it is only meant to elaborate on the specifically listed options.

~

Andrew...

If you limit it to 'individual options that are referenced', then the Summon spells quit working, none of the Summon spells reference the Bestiary.

The restrictive reading you are using, loses us the Summon spells as functional spells.

The permissive reading, in this case RAW, I still have a little difficulty justifying it as worded... Though being permissive, and knowing that the listed options appear in the Bestiary, I would allow it even though it is lacking a reference.

[Gary Bush]

Thank you for the clarity John.

[kinevon]

@Tempest_Knight: I am not sure I understand your statement, as all the Bestiary does is provide the actual combat stats for the creatures explicitly and specifically listed in the Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally/Summon Swarm spells.

Without the Bestiary, you cannot use any of the Summon spells, as you do not have access to any of the creature statistics in Pathfinder format. But, all the spells do is give you access to the creature stats, and the appropriate template for the Summon Monster spells.

You cannot summon a creature not on the SM table, even if the stats are in the Bestiary, and it is an appropriate CR for the spell, it is not on the list. You cannot use one of the special Summon lists, as they are not Core-legal.

But you can reference the Bestiary for the explicitly-named animals, and the explicitly named template, as appropriate.

[Tempest_Knight]

But the Core Rulebook does not make a reference to the Bestiary as the source of the stats for said Summon spells.

Given that we are only allowed to use the Bestiary as a sourcebook when it is referenced, the fact that the Summon spells don't reference it becomes an issue.

To refresh the wording for everyone;

Pathfinder Roleplaying Guild Guide v7.0, p20 wrote:

Core Mode play characters may not use any feat, trait, equipment, magic item, skill, or any other rule item from a resource outside the Core Campaign Resources unless it appears on a core play Chronicle sheet. For spells and class features that reference the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, that sourcebook may be utilized with the restrictions noted in Additional Resources. Any item appearing on a Chronicle sheet earned in Core Mode play, regardless of source, is allowed to be used by a Core Mode character, except Chronicle sheets that open new races.

And here is the important sentence...

Quote:

For spells and class features that reference the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, that sourcebook may be utilized with the restrictions noted in Additional Resources.

Notice, in order for the Bestiary to be used, it must be referenced.

If someone can find and cite a reference to the Bestiary in the Core Rulebook for the Summon spells, that would be helpful.

The Summon spells DO NOT reference the Bestiary, they just provide a list without stating where the stats are provided.

Commonsense tells us to look in the Bestiary, the Rules do not.

[Gary Bush]

In this case we need to use common sense. You are putting to tight off straight jacket

[Tempest_Knight]

But we just got a ruling tightening the allowance.

How can we then justify completely ignoring the rule that we are restricting further?

~

If needed, I can write up a Proof that explains how the rules don't allow you to actually make functional use of the Summon spells.

I just figured here is as good a place as any to point out an additional unintended rules interaction that should be fixed.

[Gary Bush]

Please no proofs. Reading the rules so tightly and take a strict reading and enforcement will NOT help the game.

John clarified what the intent was for Animal Companions. I personally think he has backed himself into a corner because in the druid section a reference is made to additional ACs being found in the bestiary which appears to be ignored. But that is something that will work it way through sometime in the future. John's ruling matches what I original thought how ACs were to be handled.

So now start applied a strict reading to summoned monsters and such will make Core completely unplayable. Is that your intent? To kill Core Mode?

Please stop. Let the horse finally be dead and stop beating on it.

It is not perfect. Yes, logical holes can be punched into it. We have all seen how capable you are of doing that. To fix the problems would require a rewrite of the Core Rule book that I don't see that happening. It will likely be handled by an Additional Resources or in the Guide.

Accept it as it is for the enjoyment of the game.

Please...

[Tempest_Knight]

No, my intent is to help get the RAW inline with the RAI. (This would be something to add to the list for the 7th Printing, and no I don't see that happening for a while.)

Since we have had a more restrictive ruling on the Bestiary Reference rule, we have to apply this in the reading of the rules.

I am hoping we get a CORE MODE Campaign Clarifications and/or FAQ document to codify and collect the CORE MODE specific rules and rulings. (This would fix the issue for Organized Play, where we have specific rules we MUST follow for what we are allowed to use.)

Also, I could make a simple argument for why it would be the intended method, as it restricts the Summon Critter's control to the GM who is allowed to use non-CORE material as needed to run a game. Thus forcing the Intelligence score and language rules to be better enforced.

[kjenks]

I talked to John Compton at GenCon, and he confirmed that his intent was that Core druids should have access to only those animal companions listed in the CRB, not the expanded set listed in Bestiary 1. He said that the new Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide (Version 7.0—July 30, 2015) would clarify this.

Unfortunately, the new Guide doesn't address the issue at all, nor does Additional Resources, so we're left with the ambiguity. People who read the rules will see that Roc and Dire Bat are allowed in Core. People who read the boards and talk to Compton see that they are not allowed.

An easy fix for this is to update Additional Resources, in the Bestiary 1 section, to say that only CRB animal companions are allowed in Core campaign.

[Tempest_Knight]

Now we have the new language and it causes new issues... I will not cover them here as we have a thread for that already...