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How much signal boosting do you really think is happening because of this thread? I would be surprised if posting in this thread continued for more than 4-5 days from now. After that, it falls off complete list of all the message boards in about 24 hours, once another thread is above in it most recent posts. Then, in about 3-6 months it'll be pushed off the first page of "Other RPGs" (it's a slow sub-forum and one that rarely garners even this much attention).
After that, you'll only ever find this thread if you specifically do a search for this game, or a google search of paizo threads for this game.
Basically, it'll never show up and be heard of again on these forums, unless someone specifically goes looking for it.
So what sort of "signal boosting" are you really fighting against? Pretty much none as far as I can tell. You're getting high and mighty about people "giving attention" to a thing, when the attention being given is probably even smaller than the thing itself. His youtube channel talking about the game has 30k hits, which I'm guessing is several orders of magnitude larger than than all three pages of this thread combined.
I think this game deserves to be acknowledged as existing, because it is not the only thing out there. It isn't the only example of bigotry in the industry or the community. Pretending bigotry doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away. Am I going to go out and champion some cause of eradicating this? No. But I want to be aware of the bad things in our hobby, so that if someone talks about them or brings them up to me, I am armed with foreknowledge of the topic and can respond as I see fit.
You're not going to convince me to be quiet, unless you have some actual data, not just your analogies and anecdotes. Show me data that ignorance is the best cure.
Have we entirely moved on from the original topic? This thread IS a call for the "rpg community" to "spread the word" is it not? Because you're implying that I'm reading into something that isn't there. You are posting in a thread that says "spread the word" with a post that says "ignorance isn't an answer".
Am I wrong to think that this is in context with the rest of the thread? Was it a completely disconnected statement? If so, why post it? So I assumed it was on topic.
And so I asked "Why should I care?". Especially when you in particular seemed to think it was important to do so. I have yet to get an answer to that very simple question.
Nobody is saying you should be quiet. I am just asking what you think it is going to accomplish. Why does it matter if you "spread the word"? What purpose does it serve?
Except now you're saying you don't want to "spread the word", you just want to know about it? In which case why are you arguing with me about me asking for clarification on the point of the thread?
You have very swiftly made this a very confusing conversation with some contradictory statements.
What's your problem with the thread's existence, in one or two sentences?
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Why do you care so much what someone else does with their time?
Anyway, stop defending Nazis' right to free speech 2k16, we can do it
no. Even my most hated foes have the right to say what they will.
I have the right to throw a counter protest on the opposing corner and yell at them.
Oh, I remember this dude! Was he the guy who ate another Scandinavian black metalhead's heart or was that someone else? Or was it urban legend?
Top 10 Worst Crimes Committed by Black Metal Musicians: 7. MAYHEM VOCALIST "DEAD" FOUND… UHHH… DEAD
Well, I may be getting the pseudonyms wrong, but looks like Varg's victim might have cannibalized yet another dude...but he didn't kill him.
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I think it's more like "stop defending their right to free speech" because no one's threatening it. Regardless of potential European laws, no one here is advocating banning the game. The argument is precisely about throwing a counter protest or just ignoring it, but people still feel the need to jump in and defend his right to free speech.Why do you care so much what someone else does with their time?
Anyway, stop defending Nazis' right to free speech 2k16, we can do it
no. Even my most hated foes have the right to say what they will.
I have the right to throw a counter protest on the opposing corner and yell at them.
Pretty much what thejeff said. I'm not seriously advocating banning this game in any legal way. Nazis in America don't have to worry about legal repercussions for saying Nazi garbage. They don't need more defenders of any kind, though.
Anyway pick up Nazis and put them in the garbage where they belong 2k16
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Minor quibble.
You're not saving space by going with 2k16, over 2016, and it makes my brain sad when you do it.
That is all. :-)
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Minor quibble.
You're not saving space by going with 2k16, over 2016, and it makes my brain sad when you do it.
That is all. :-)
It's not about the character count, it's about the slogan!
Save space by removing Nazis from your space and dunking them into a trash can, this year of our Lord two thousand sixteen.
What's your problem with the thread's existence, in one or two sentences?Not Sundakan, but I have no problem with this thread's existence. I disagree with the thread's premise, as stated in the title and the original post.
I do not agree that:
I don’t think silence about Myfarog is enough. Given our troubled history, I think it’s important for the key game companies, RPG writers and fans to explicitly condemn Myfarog. We need to make it clear that we reject this slime firmly and fully.Do you think we need to start some kind of campaign to get "key game companies" like maybe Paizo, to explicitly condemn Myfarog? If not, we agree.
Nope, I don't think we need an organized campaign. As I stated in a previous post, there's two parts to the discussion:
1) should we talk about it at all (existence)
2) how big should the talk be (proportionality)
I think a thread, where someone who has questions about the game can come and find information about it's nature is a good thing. Where we discuss it's bigotry and the history of it's author.
I don't think an organized campaign is necessary. Nor do I think Paizo is required to speak up and condemn the product. I wouldn't have an issue if Paizo did, but Paizo should worry about Paizo. Now, if they had offered the game for sale in their store, I would expect a retraction of the product and a statement apologizing and condemning, but that is a more specific scenario and includes direct involvement on Paizo's part.
Since the original post though, there really hasn't been any talk about an organized campaign. The topic has drifted from that one sentence and we are several pages after the fact. The overall topic is still about a majority of that original post, just not that sentence about game companies organizing.
I don’t think silence about Myfarog is enough. Given our troubled history, I think it’s important for the key game companies, RPG writers and fans to explicitly condemn Myfarog. We need to make it clear that we reject this slime firmly and fully.
What "troubled history" are you referring to? If you're talking about the years of the "Great D+D Panic", those were the best years of the paper and dice gaming industry. Gaming from TSR and other non D+D gaming systems sold a lot more than it does now, when it's mainstream enough to be lampshaded on "Futurama" and numerous network situation comedies.
If you're referring to Gamergate and related issues, that's a much more general issue of which paper and dice gaming is really just a minor reflection. Myfarog is an infinitesimal small slice of paper and dice gaming, the total expenditure of which is only a small fraction of the development budget that goes into one video game release.
In the perspective of the big pond, Myfarog isn't even a pebble tossed into it.
While I think the issues involving inclusiveness of color and gender DO need to be addressed, there are much more relevant battle grounds for this to be done so.
I guess we're reading the thread differently. I've been reading all of the talk about publicity and the like to be responding to the scenario set up in the title and the OP. That's certainly what I've been saying. I don't recall anyone talking about shutting this thread down or saying we shouldn't talk about it
I think we basically agree.
Well, I don't think that the publicity is the inherent problem. It's just my opinion that people aren't required to comment on something unless they're directly involved. If they want to comment on it, they certainly can. If Paizo did want to condemn the game and say why they would never carry it, I would welcome it.
I don't think that signal boosting is the primary problem here. For one, the guy already has various ways of getting his message out which demonstrably have decently wide reach. I would estimate the reach of a Paizo blog post might be of a similar size, but that the effect would be negative to this guy's cause.
Ignoring things like this don't make them go away. That doesn't mean I think Paizo is required to jump in, but I would say that anyone who wants to contribute to putting this man down needs to lend their voice. Staying silent in no way helps those who oppose this guy.
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I guess we're reading the thread differently. I've been reading all of the talk about publicity and the like to be responding to the scenario set up in the title and the OP. That's certainly what I've been saying. I don't recall anyone talking about shutting this thread down or saying we shouldn't talk about it
I think we basically agree.
Well, I don't think that the publicity is the inherent problem. It's just my opinion that people aren't required to comment on something unless they're directly involved. If they want to comment on it, they certainly can. If Paizo did want to condemn the game and say why they would never carry it, I would welcome it.
I don't think that signal boosting is the primary problem here. For one, the guy already has various ways of getting his message out which demonstrably have decently wide reach. I would estimate the reach of a Paizo blog post might be of a similar size, but that the effect would be negative to this guy's cause.
Ignoring things like this don't make them go away. That doesn't mean I think Paizo is required to jump in, but I would say that anyone who wants to contribute to putting this man down needs to lend their voice. Staying silent in no way helps those who oppose this guy.
Neither does internet slacktivism. How many minds do you expect to change on this guys politics by an internet callout? Because to be honest I doubt people who were susceptible to this persons bigotry are going to go "oh wow, these people on a paizo board are rabble rousing against this person, I guess I should be against them too"
Calling out hasn't done squat to deter people for voting for a certain orange toned hairpiece, its not going to suddenly educate people who shared sympathies with the dude to change their position.
I guess we're reading the thread differently. I've been reading all of the talk about publicity and the like to be responding to the scenario set up in the title and the OP. That's certainly what I've been saying. I don't recall anyone talking about shutting this thread down or saying we shouldn't talk about it
I think we basically agree.
Well, I don't think that the publicity is the inherent problem. It's just my opinion that people aren't required to comment on something unless they're directly involved. If they want to comment on it, they certainly can. If Paizo did want to condemn the game and say why they would never carry it, I would welcome it.
I don't think that signal boosting is the primary problem here. For one, the guy already has various ways of getting his message out which demonstrably have decently wide reach. I would estimate the reach of a Paizo blog post might be of a similar size, but that the effect would be negative to this guy's cause.
Ignoring things like this don't make them go away. That doesn't mean I think Paizo is required to jump in, but I would say that anyone who wants to contribute to putting this man down needs to lend their voice. Staying silent in no way helps those who oppose this guy.
Neither does internet slacktivism. How many minds do you expect to change on this guys politics by an internet callout? Because to be honest I doubt people who were susceptible to this persons bigotry are going to go "oh wow, these people on a paizo board are rabble rousing against this person, I guess I should be against them too"
Calling out hasn't done squat to deter people for voting for a certain orange toned hairpiece, its not going to suddenly educate people who shared sympathies with the dude to change their position.
You lost me when you decided to start your post with an insult.
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I guess we're reading the thread differently. I've been reading all of the talk about publicity and the like to be responding to the scenario set up in the title and the OP. That's certainly what I've been saying. I don't recall anyone talking about shutting this thread down or saying we shouldn't talk about it
I think we basically agree.
Well, I don't think that the publicity is the inherent problem. It's just my opinion that people aren't required to comment on something unless they're directly involved. If they want to comment on it, they certainly can. If Paizo did want to condemn the game and say why they would never carry it, I would welcome it.
I don't think that signal boosting is the primary problem here. For one, the guy already has various ways of getting his message out which demonstrably have decently wide reach. I would estimate the reach of a Paizo blog post might be of a similar size, but that the effect would be negative to this guy's cause.
Ignoring things like this don't make them go away. That doesn't mean I think Paizo is required to jump in, but I would say that anyone who wants to contribute to putting this man down needs to lend their voice. Staying silent in no way helps those who oppose this guy.
Well, certainly, anyone who wants to contribute to putting this man down should do something, though frankly, I'm not sure what.
I'm not even really saying that publicity is the real issue. It's just that some racist self-publishing a racist game is such a tiny fish even in the niche world of tabletop RPGs that it's not even really worth noticing.
Sure, ignoring him won't make him go away, but nothing will make him go away. Publicizing him won't make him go away. Making a huge internet controversy about him won't make him go away. Turning him into a viral joke won't make him go away, but it wins on amusement value and probably irritates him more than anything else would.
I see bigotry quietly accepted fairly often. At best, people disagree, but remain silent. At worst, people agree and let others speak for them. I've seen issues of racism, sexism and homophobia brushed off as being insignificant and unimportant, with the loudest perpetrators excused as "not representing us". Yet they're allowed to stay and continue perpetuating these things.
When someone points it out, we get a litany of responses about why we shouldn't talk about it. People who refuse to acknowledge that these things do happen or have any reflection on our community. It's been a common theme and continuous over the past few years on these message boards as well.
Maybe just standing up and speaking wont do very much. I don't care. But things aren't getting better by not speaking, cause these issues haven't gone away.
I don't require anyone to stand up and denounce this stuff. I do think it would be good if we did it more often though. I also think it would be good if others didn't try to present arguments about why we shouldn't.
It's hard enough to effect change, when you have to justify talking about change in the first place.
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Oh, I remember this dude! Was he the guy who ate another Scandinavian black metalhead's heart or was that someone else? Or was it urban legend?
Top 10 Worst Crimes Committed by Black Metal Musicians: 7. MAYHEM VOCALIST "DEAD" FOUND… UHHH… DEAD
Well, I may be getting the pseudonyms wrong, but looks like Varg's victim might have cannibalized yet another dude...but he didn't kill him.
*puts on black metal fanboy hat*
Euronymous DID take the photo of Dead after he'd killed himself, and the rumour is that he actually deliberately leaked the photo for use as the cover of that bootleg album, but the brain stew thing has been confirmed as false. What is true is that Euronymous collected bits of Dead's skull, cleaned them up and presented them to musicians he felt were worthy (this was confirmed by other band members as well as people who recieved them).
Can't remember if the cannibalism thing was a deliberately started rumour to get publicity or if it was just something fans started saying.
*takes off black metal fanboy hat*
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And their last album featured Thurston Moore?!?
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Pointing to Nazi media and condemning it may not be enacting radical social change. But you've offered little proof that it isn't useful or effective. (If your evidence is "it's on the internet" then we've got some other points to hammer out.)
Telling people that calling out Nazis isn't useful is, guess what, also not super useful? What would you rather we do about this? Let literal Nazi arsonist murderers fly under the radar to just do their thing? I humbly submit that you are essentially calling out callouts; it feels like you're acting on that same outrage dopamine that you're condemning when you could be spending your time putting Nazis in trash cans.
Pointing to Nazi media and condemning it may not be enacting radical social change. But you've offered little proof that it isn't useful or effective. (If your evidence is "it's on the internet" then we've got some other points to hammer out.)
Telling people that calling out Nazis isn't useful is, guess what, also not super useful? What would you rather we do about this? Let literal Nazi arsonist murderers fly under the radar to just do their thing? I humbly submit that you are essentially calling out callouts; it feels like you're acting on that same outrage dopamine that you're condemning when you could be spending your time putting Nazis in trash cans.
Perhaps push it off to the dark corner where its marginalized and forgotten? Where instead of having awareness of it spread so that racists the world over can buy it out of sheer support for a "brother" it sells ten copies to people in his close circle and he doesn't end up with a gofundme or kickstarter of hundreds of thousands of dollars by pointing out the persecutions of those who support miscegenation, zog and other bigot boogiemen?
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On the other hand... why don't we just deride the piece of lousy work for what it is: a piece of lousy work. It has racism (which is terrible) and a host of other problems. I'm pretty sure thejeff has the right of it. Mock it kind of gently, tell anyone that asks about it's lameness and leave off.
The spirit of the OP is correct: racism is a terrible thing. This man is a murderer, an arsonist, and a racist. That's quite a ball of bad stuff he's built up over the years. Everyone should avoid his stuff and shake their heads and be disgusted by evil, including his. That's a "normal" and "moral" and "should be automatic for humans" response.
The substance of of the OP is incorrect: the game has some good art and... that's it. I'd never heard of this, and I plan on avoiding it. If anyone asks, I'll tell them not to buy it. I do think the thread has done good. I also think the tone of the OP in specific is incorrect.
And with this, I think I'm out. The thread looks like it's starting to head downward, and, honestly, while I don't want it to follow that route, and I do think it can be salvaged, I don't think I'm going to be the one to do it.
I, for one, am grateful that Paizo has provided a safe place, a welcoming environment, for all people of all stripes. They're a good place, and a good developer, and have good people. That, I think, is something worth focusing on, and praising.
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Perhaps push it off to the dark corner where its marginalized and forgotten? Where instead of having awareness of it spread so that racists the world over can buy it out of sheer support for a "brother" it sells ten copies to people in his close circle and he doesn't end up with a gofundme or kickstarter of hundreds of thousands of dollars by pointing out the persecutions of those who support miscegenation, zog and other bigot boogiemen?Pointing to Nazi media and condemning it may not be enacting radical social change. But you've offered little proof that it isn't useful or effective. (If your evidence is "it's on the internet" then we've got some other points to hammer out.)
Telling people that calling out Nazis isn't useful is, guess what, also not super useful? What would you rather we do about this? Let literal Nazi arsonist murderers fly under the radar to just do their thing? I humbly submit that you are essentially calling out callouts; it feels like you're acting on that same outrage dopamine that you're condemning when you could be spending your time putting Nazis in trash cans.
Varg Vikernes is, to my knowledge, already a semi-well-known Nazi. I doubt that this particular public exposure is going to do more fund-raising than his own among his Nazi friends. Nazis, like any social group, tend to hang out together; they're real (vile and violent) people, not shadow monsters hidden in the forgotten corners of the world.
It's also good to point this out so that we know what racism (and especially Nazism) looks like. There's a lot of "coding" being done with this game that reflects the usual red flags of Nazi language. It's useful to be able to point at something someone actually made and say, "This is what racism looks like, this is what Nazis sound like, and this is unnacceptable."
Partially this is useful because pointing to extreme racism and deconstructing it helps us understand why it's wrong and explain other kinds of racism as well. And partially it's useful so we know who Nazis are so we can challenge, ostracize, and dumpster-slam them.
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Apparently this game can be found for sale on Amazon.com. Does Amazon have any policies that this product violates? If so, some complaints might be in order.
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I will object to one thing in the review: I like Papyrus! What? Anyone wanna fight me on that? You wanna go? *Raises fists and bobs around like Scrappy Doo*