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Sorry about the Tangent, but I was impressed with the change to Stealth in the CRB sixth printing. Used it soon after much to the surprise of my GM.
I wouldn't carry a Dwarf, they bite.
So, does that mean if I am wielding a reach weapon, but am also carrying a Dwarf, I threaten at both 10' and adjacent?
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So, does that mean if I am wielding a reach weapon, but am also carrying a Dwarf, I threaten at both 10' and adjacent?Sorry about the Tangent, but I was impressed with the change to Stealth in the CRB sixth printing. Used it soon after much to the surprise of my GM.
I wouldn't carry a Dwarf, they bite.
Only if you're a Half-Orc and the Dwarf is a Sorcerer. (and you're weapon is a whip and you have the appropriate feat.) Otherwise, you don't threaten at all, but the dwarf does adjacent.
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You can only purchase things in print. If "collapsible" is defined somewhere, and it's legal, then you can purchase it.
But, generally, it's of no concern. A medium-sized Barbarian carrying around a longspear, a glaive, an earthbreaker, a greatsword, a dwarf, a heavy crossbow, a ten-foot ladder, and a kitchen sink can still use Escape Artist to squeeze through a tiny-sized hole.
Make him a Titan Fighter and give him a belt of the weasel, replace the weapons with large sized versions and he is still squeezing through a tiny-sized hole, without the check, at full speed, no penalties.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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There isn't one, sadly, and the only reason I can think of why is because Paizo hates martials. You just have to settle with the usual -4 penalty for non-proficiency.
Gnomes, on the other hand can be wielded as improvised weapons, using body bludgeon. Which means they can be wielded with catch off-guard to eliminate the penalty.
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Dwarves don't by default have a bite attack. They *can* bite someone as an attack, but they provoke an AoO, unlike when a kitsune in their natural form bites someone. Now a dwarf dragonblood sorcerer of would have a bite attack, thus no AoO.
But you need to have them under the effects of Enlarge Person, of course, so they actually fit the topic, being an oversized weapon...
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So, can we give Ledford, the Halfling Barbarian, a Dwarf to wield, instead of his normal x3 weapon?
Probably not, as the halfling is probably too small to wield a medium creature with two hands. Maybe a Titan Fighter...
Also, as an improvised weapon, it's x2 damage.
Though it would be interesting to wield a creature with a natural SR as your improvised weapon...
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Granted, upon realizing what your weapon is many GMs will go "ugh, no. Just, no."
Was just joking anyway.
Though, Depending on the GM's reaction, you could always claim it as joke, then double back and claim it's a "statue" of a dwarf. Honestly, as long as you have the weight kept track of in your inventory, it really doesn't matter in terms of game mechanics what the two-handed improvised weapon actually is.
And still joking, this is more dry humor.
I'm not really sure if you can add weapons to the character sheet that you can't buy. Can't buy dwarfs, as far as I know.
I think you could get a goat or similar animal to use an improvised weapon, though the GM would certainly be able to reduce your alignment quickly should the animal die in such a manner. It's one thing to use an animal like this in the heat of the moment, but buying one to use as a melee weapon is a little too premeditated for any GOOD character, and is certainly pushing the limits for even Chaotic Neutral.
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And, once again, derailed...
Okay, double checking. Reach and similar abilities are not affected by a weapon being undersized, right?
So I could make a Shield+Spear fighter, by just taking a normal shield and a "small" longspear for a Medium Fighter. I'd retain Reach and Brace, but I'd be at -2 for attack. This right?
Just double checking, as this sounds really awesome and I was under the impression I'd need a class feature, like the "Phalanx Soldier" fighter archetype's "Phalanx Fighting (Ex)."
Yeah, -2 on attack is annoying, but there are lots of weapons with special properties that as just awesome, with the drawback being the weapon's required number of hands. Means I could do a Cleric of Zon-Kuthon with a one-handed spiked chain and a shield, rather than having to always be two handed.
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And, once again, derailed...
Okay, double checking. Reach and similar abilities are not affected by a weapon being undersized, right?
So I could make a Shield+Spear fighter, by just taking a normal shield and a "small" longspear for a Medium Fighter. I'd retain Reach and Brace, but I'd be at -2 for attack. This right?
Just double checking, as this sounds really awesome and I was under the impression I'd need a class feature, like the "Phalanx Soldier" fighter archetype's "Phalanx Fighting (Ex)."
Yeah, -2 on attack is annoying, but there are lots of weapons with special properties that as just awesome, with the drawback being the weapon's required number of hands. Means I could do a Cleric of Zon-Kuthon with a one-handed spiked chain and a shield, rather than having to always be two handed.
That is correct.
Note: Due to some clarity issues with the rules, this will usually (ETV) work for a Medium PC, but the rules are unclear as to whether a Small creature using a Tiny Reach weapon would be able to retain 10' reach, or be limited to the 5' reach that said weapon gives to a Tiny creature.
I have a 16th level Fighter (Polearm Master) who, after I was alerted to this trick, purchased a second Fauchard, small, adamantine, to use as a backup weapon, or allow him to wield it with his Agile rapier. I still tend to wield his medium Silversheen Fauchard, and keep the fauchard/rapier combo for situations.
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<Derail>
The wording for Body Bludgeon does say "Opponent" which allows for the GM to say "No"... but I know a few in my area who would be ok with it if it is done with two consenting PCs...[EDIT] My wife and I are tinkering with a pair of builds for this idea... She finds the concept hilarious...
<Topic>
As per the RAW, the Small longspear keeps Reach and Brace...But, this means Small PCs can get Reach weapons... (IMHO the intent of that rule)
Note, though, that the small longspear is one-handed for medium characters. Small characters would need a tiny longspear in order to one-hand it. And that can be an issue in PFS, as tiny weapons aren't "always available." You should still be able to acquire them with fame, but it isn't a first level PC thing.
Also, as already mentioned in this thread, only weapons properly sized qualify for "weapon finesse" which makes under-sizing weapons to light versions less useful. There are several other class abilities which specify weapons of the correct size, so there are limitations to how useful this can be.
Still, doing a weapon master which alternates different sizes of the same weapon type, would certainly be interesting.
Mainly, I think clerics benefit the most from being able to alter the number of hands required for their sacred weapon. It really alters their options in a good way.
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And that can be an issue in PFS, as tiny weapons aren't "always available." You should still be able to acquire them with fame, but it isn't a first level PC thing.
Clarification: tiny-sized weapons are aren't available for purchase at all, period, as they aren't available in the Pathfinder RPG without GM fiat.
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Clarification: tiny-sized weapons are aren't available for purchase at all, period, as they aren't available in the Pathfinder RPG without GM fiat.
How do you figure that? Tiny are in the same text sections and tables as the large sized weapon info. If tiny weapons are not legal, then neither are large.
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The difference is that small, medium and large weapons have a pricing structure outlined in the CRB. While no other sizes do, some people infer the prices of the rest of the prices but RAW they don't exist. (In 3.5 there was an later book beyond the PHB that outlined the pricing structure of other sizes of weapons)
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Gotcha. Never thought to buy a tiny weapon anyway. Sounds like bringing a dinner knife to a sword fight. I hear off in the distance someone saying, "Knife? That's not a knife. THIS is a knife"
It is interesting that Paizo did not take the opportunity to clarify pricing for other weapon sizes in Ultimate Equipment. I mean it cannot be the ultimate if its incomplete ;-)
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And that can be an issue in PFS, as tiny weapons aren't "always available." You should still be able to acquire them with fame, but it isn't a first level PC thing.Clarification: tiny-sized weapons are aren't available for purchase at all, period, as they aren't available in the Pathfinder RPG without GM fiat.
So why'd you wait to object when I posted it? I'm just repeating info already posted and (I thought) agreed to in this thread. I take it you think Huge weapons are unable for purchase too?
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Gotcha. Never thought to buy a tiny weapon anyway. Sounds like bringing a dinner knife to a sword fight. I hear off in the distance someone saying, "Knife? That's not a knife. THIS is a knife"
It is interesting that Paizo did not take the opportunity to clarify pricing for other weapon sizes in Ultimate Equipment. I mean it cannot be the ultimate if its incomplete ;-)
I heard they were going to call it Penultimate Equipment for that very reason, but the name just didn't have the nice ring to it that Ultimate Equipment does. :)
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So why'd you wait to object when I posted it? I'm just repeating info already posted and (I thought) agreed to in this thread. I take it you think Huge weapons are unable for purchase too?And that can be an issue in PFS, as tiny weapons aren't "always available." You should still be able to acquire them with fame, but it isn't a first level PC thing.Clarification: tiny-sized weapons are aren't available for purchase at all, period, as they aren't available in the Pathfinder RPG without GM fiat.
I have stated this many times, both earlier in this thread, and in other threads in the past. Even the Developers have acknowledged that there are no prices for weapons smaller than small, or larger than large.
So, indeed, huge-sized weapons are unavailable for purchase (except as loot on at least one Chronicle Sheet that I know of).
Edit: this could be easily added to the Campaign Clarifications document, IMO. It could be as easy as "for weapons, follow the pricing guidelines for armor of unusual sizes", or something to that effect.
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I have stated this many times, both earlier in this thread, and in other threads in the past. Even the Developers have acknowledged that there are no prices for weapons smaller than small, or larger than large.So, indeed, huge-sized weapons are unavailable for purchase (except as loot on at least one Chronicle Sheet that I know of).
Edit: this could be easily added to the Campaign Clarifications document, IMO. It could be as easy as "for weapons, follow the pricing guidelines for armor of unusual sizes", or something to that effect.
This should really be in that PFS document somewhere. Even if only to clarify disallowing tiny/huge weapons.
So, by your logic, a medium Titan Fighter (PFS legal fighter archetype) is unable to acquire a weapon which their class is designed around...?
If so, there should be a note in Additional resources that limits the class to small characters.
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This should really be in that PFS document somewhere. Even if only to clarify disallowing tiny/huge weapons.
I don't see a need for clarification. Small/Medium/Large are given as Always Available, and the other sizes don't have an official price structure, which we all know means you can't buy something in PFS
So, by your logic, a medium Titan Fighter (PFS legal fighter archetype) is unable to acquire a weapon which their class is designed around...?
No, because he said Huge, not Large. Large weapons are Always Available, and have a pricing structure given in official sources. Huge weapons do not have an official pricing structure, so of course they can't be bought in PFS.
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This should really be in that PFS document somewhere. Even if only to clarify disallowing tiny/huge weapons.I don't see a need for clarification. Small/Medium/Large are given as Always Available, and the other sizes don't have an official price structure, which we all know means you can't buy something in PFS
Right...just like how I can't acquire Fresh berries for the Good Berry spell, or rocks for the magic stone spell...Or how Oak isn't a special material so isn't an option for making clubs/quarterstaves out of for the Shillelagh spell.
If buying undersized/oversized weapons is reasonable for PFS characters, then I don't understand why I can't acquire smaller versions of weapons for a small character. Seems like a disadvantage that isn't intended to be part of size.
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Right...just like how I can't acquire Fresh berries for the Good Berry spell, or rocks for the magic stone spell...Or how Oak isn't a special material so isn't an option for making clubs/quarterstaves out of for the Shillelagh spell.
Except all of those fit the description of things you can find for free and/or are hand waved by the 5gp you spend on a spell component pouch.
If buying undersized/oversized weapons is reasonable for PFS characters, then I don't understand why I can't acquire smaller versions of weapons for a small character. Seems like a disadvantage that isn't intended to be part of size.
Show me a page anywhere with a cost of buying the Tiny or Huge weapon and you can. The problem exists in that there isn't one. Weapons cost a non-neglible amount of gold unlike the spell components. (If you wanted a tiny sling or quarterstaff since those are 0 gp anyway I suppose that would be ok, though I can't understand why you would.)
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If buying undersized/oversized weapons is reasonable for PFS characters, then I don't understand why I can't acquire smaller versions of weapons for a small character. Seems like a disadvantage that isn't intended to be part of size.
Yes it is a disadvantage to bring small. Of course they also have the advantage that small Titan Fighters don't pay extra for their oversized weapons since Small and Medium are the same. There's advantages and disadvantages to pretty much every race, class, etc. compared to the other options. It sucks, but it is what it is.
Maybe one day we'll get an official pricing guide for weapons below Small and above Large. Of course we may also get told those sizes aren't allowed for whatever the reason may be. After all, firearms already have a Large ban I believe.
The best way to show why you can't buy tiny or huge outside of a chronicle sheet is this
What do the following cost, and how did you come to that conclusion
Tiny Scythe
Tiny Falchion
Tiny Heavy Crossbow
Huge Adamantine Rapier
Huge Sling Glove
Huge Composite Longbow with a +2 STR bonus
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Of course they also have the advantage that small Titan Fighters don't pay extra for their oversized weapons since Small and Medium are the same.
That is a good point, I hadn't considered this end.
As for the huge and tiny weapons, I'll look into it, but generally, the cost should be the price of the base weapon, plus special materials (if any), plus masterwork (if it is), plus magical enhancement costs (if any). Larger or smaller does affect anything other than the base cost of the weapon and indirectly cost of special materials (due to weight changes).
I personally think that the base cost of weapons after first level is negligible, as it really represents a very minor portion of the cost. Still, if pushed for an exact price, I'd suggest medium and small at the base cost, with each step away being doubled (large and tiny weapons equal GP price) just because the odds sizes represent unusual requests or imported weapons (since the average weapons are small or medium).
Weights of the items are pretty clearly doubling at each larger step, and dividing by 2 at each lower step. This would indirectly affect the special materials cost, as those costs are applied by weight.
Masterwork and magical enhancement costs remain the same.
You are correct it doesn't directly state these, but it doesn't seem any less reasonable than putting Oak clubs on my character sheet, despite lacking rules for the special material of oak.
I can take a trait that allows me to use stools as if I had the catch off guard feat, but I can't buy stools in PFS because those don't exist for sale...
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Still, if pushed for an exact price, I'd suggest medium and small at the base cost, with each step away being doubled
That's reasonable. Usually people suggest following the rules for pricing unusual-sized armor. Using that system, tinier armors are less expensive, whereas larger armors are more expensive.
Using your suggestion as an example, I'm sure you can see now why purchasing unusual-sized weapons isn't currently possible. There are at least two different viewpoints on what the price would be.
Making up prices works in homegames, but it really can't work in an Organized Play environment.
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Ok going back off topic a moment, that's sounds awesome and I want to see that mini.On a side note, got a PFS game in using a half-orc barbarian with a Large Morningstar wielded in two hands.
It was awesome and it allowed me to use one of my very old Warhammer orc models. Had fun.
Mine is only primed black, so the photo won't turn out. Model is the guy here on the bottom right. Photo doesn't do him justice, model is an awesome skulpt.
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Still, if pushed for an exact price, I'd suggest medium and small at the base cost, with each step away being doubledThat's reasonable. Usually people suggest following the rules for pricing unusual-sized armor. Using that system, tinier armors are less expensive, whereas larger armors are more expensive.
Using your suggestion as an example, I'm sure you can see now why purchasing unusual-sized weapons isn't currently possible. There are at least two different viewpoints on what the price would be.
Making up prices works in homegames, but it really can't work in an Organized Play environment.
Even with my suggestion, seems petty.
Even the most expensive weapons have pretty negligible costs when you start looking at the other costs in weapon making (masterwork, special materials, and magic enhancements).
I do wish we had rules for the normal materials, and could just determine price based on materials in the weapon, rather than a bizarre base cost system.
So, follow up question, Can I get tiny/huge weapons when acquiring "free" items that don't specify a size? PFS makes it clear that free weapons have a fixed resale value (often 0gp).
In example, Could a small/medium wizard take a Tiny Longspear as their Arcane Bond?
There's no cost involved with the arcane bond, so if cost is the lynchpin of this debate, seems like tiny weapons could be acquired in this matter.
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This should really be in that PFS document somewhere.If by "this" you mean that PFS should create a Campaign houserule for pricing larger-than-large, and smaller-than-small weapons, then I totally agree.
PFS tries really hard not to make campaign rules that conflict with existing RPG rules or create rules/clarifications that would have far-reaching ramifications outside the campaign. Sometimes it is necessary, but I do not think this is one of those times. Pricing for items not currently listed in any official publication is really the purview of the design team, not the OP development team.