[PFS] High intelligence and additional languages


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

I wanted to make sure that I am not shorting myself some additional languages, but I might have since there are no other ones listed for half-orc. (9th level PFS Wizard (Spell sage))

Half-orc from Varisia
Common, Orc
5 additional languages for a 20 Int
9 Languages from Linguistics (+1 for Dark Archives)

So was I to have gotten another language when his Int went to 22? What about for his +4 headband of Intellect?

Grand Lodge

Yes to INT 22. As you probably know, in PFS any of the bonus languages granted by high INT can be modern human languages as well as those listed in the race's abilities.

Developers have expressed an opinion (though I'm not saying I agree) that the headband of intellect should give an additional language per 2 points of bonus. As written and I believe in PFS, it does not.


Starglim wrote:

Yes to INT 22. As you probably know, in PFS any of the bonus languages granted by high INT can be modern human languages as well as those listed in the race's abilities.

Developers have expressed an opinion (though I'm not saying I agree) that the headband of intellect should give an additional language per 2 points of bonus. As written and I believe in PFS, it does not.

baring some PFS specific ruling it does.

Sczarni

Headbands specifically come with their own language.

You don't get another bonus language from the Int increase itself.

So Half-orc with +6 Mod and 9 ranks would have 17 languages, including Common and Orc.

Since there is nothing PFS-specific about this question, I'll go ahead and flag it for the Rules Questions Forum.

Grand Lodge

IIRC, just like the skill ranks given by the Headband, the language(s) granted are specific, and cannot be changed.

Grand Lodge

kinevon wrote:
IIRC, just like the skill ranks given by the Headband, the language(s) granted are specific, and cannot be changed.

Correct.

Sovereign Court

Okay. I guess it might have helped that for the HBoI, that there was a language in addition to the skill that came with it.

Grand Lodge

Kegdrainer wrote:
Okay. I guess it might have helped that for the HBoI, that there was a language in addition to the skill that came with it.

Yeah, I forget if that is in the FAQ, or in a random developer post somewhere.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Starglim wrote:

Yes to INT 22. As you probably know, in PFS any of the bonus languages granted by high INT can be modern human languages as well as those listed in the race's abilities.

Developers have expressed an opinion (though I'm not saying I agree) that the headband of intellect should give an additional language per 2 points of bonus. As written and I believe in PFS, it does not.

baring some PFS specific ruling it does.

FAQ: Intelligence

Barring a specific ruling from somewhere, I'm far from satisfied that "Technically, this sort of item should ..." is firm enough language to change any rule.

Grand Lodge

Starglim wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Starglim wrote:

Yes to INT 22. As you probably know, in PFS any of the bonus languages granted by high INT can be modern human languages as well as those listed in the race's abilities.

Developers have expressed an opinion (though I'm not saying I agree) that the headband of intellect should give an additional language per 2 points of bonus. As written and I believe in PFS, it does not.

baring some PFS specific ruling it does.

FAQ: Intelligence

Barring a specific ruling from somewhere, I'm far from satisfied that "Technically, this sort of item should ..." is firm enough language to change any rule.

The fact that they bothered putting it into the FAQ, however, indicates it is supposed to.

Sczarni

Starglim wrote:
Barring a specific ruling from somewhere, I'm far from satisfied that "Technically, this sort of item should ..." is firm enough language to change any rule.

We already have hundreds of other ambiguous rules interpretations. Let's not be splitting hairs about FAQs on top of that.

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:
Starglim wrote:
Barring a specific ruling from somewhere, I'm far from satisfied that "Technically, this sort of item should ..." is firm enough language to change any rule.
We already have hundreds of other ambiguous rules interpretations. Let's not be splitting hairs about FAQs on top of that.

No! If we don't argue and fuel the restraining sigil the forum beast will be unleashed to wreak its mighty vengeance upon the world!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Nefreet wrote:

Headbands specifically come with their own language.

You don't get another bonus language from the Int increase itself.

Not exactly true. If one of the skills that comes with the Headband of Intellect is Linguistics, then you get the predetermined languages that are supposed to be pre-programmed into it with that skill. Assuming that your character has it custom made for him, he can determine those languages, it doesn't have to be random.

You still get to learn another language for every +2 your INT goes up, so long as it isn't a temporary bonus, regardless of whether or not Linguistics is one of the skills tied to the Headband.

If you have already invested max ranks into Linguistics and then get (or upgrade) a Headband to have the Linguistics skill ranks max out, I don't believe you get to then learn ANOTHER nine (in this example) languages learned! You're better served by tying skills to the Headband that you have few if any ranks invested in, to get the biggest benefit.

Sczarni

Yes, obviously if Linguistics is tied to the Headband, you would acquire the associated number of languages.

Those are not "bonus languages", which is what this discussion is about.

Scarab Sages

Does anyone have a quote for where it says increased Int gives additional languages? I thought bonus languages were only granted at character creation.

I know the FAQ says that the headband should grant a language and that increased int gives bonus languages, but I don't know anywhere in the CRB that states you gain bonus languages after character creation.

Or, is the FAQ an errata?

Either way it means I get more languages on a few of my characters.

Sczarni

Click the link above.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

@Lorewalker, 3.5 only did languages and bonus skill points at creation. Pathfinder allows both to be added when you gain Int since day 1.


increasing ability scores wrote:

...

Permanent Bonuses: Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses.

The key bit (and the way I've always played it) is "and other bonuses". I would include languages known in that.

It takes an extremely strict reading to say that it is no longer the start of the game so no bonus languages for you. (bonus languages are the only ability score bonus that states "at the start of the game")


Thamius wrote:

You still get to learn another language for every +2 your INT goes up, so long as it isn't a temporary bonus, regardless of whether or not Linguistics is one of the skills tied to the Headband.

Well, based on a recent FAQ, temporary bonuses are supposed to be identical to permanent bonuses for all character effects.

That said, getting skill ranks and extra languages from Fox's Cunning doesn't make a lot of sense.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Fox's Cunning doesn't grant extra skill ranks, which was probably added because otherwise they would.

I could see you getting a language tho, a temporary one.


Mindchemist Cognatogen?

And it would be two extra languages for the +4.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Mindchemist Cognatogen?

And it would be two extra languages for the +4.

No, temporary int bonuses don't do that. Permanent ones do


Was pretty sure this has been talked about plenty here on the boards:

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Quote:
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The Exchange

Nefreet wrote:

Yes, obviously if Linguistics is tied to the Headband, you would acquire the associated number of languages.

Those are not "bonus languages", which is what this discussion is about.

Ok, here's a corner case for you.

5th lvl PC with 5 ranks in linguistics puts on a head band of INT that gives Linguistics ... Does it give the same set of 5 languages? Or not?

Now hand it to a different PC, with ranks in linguistics witness a different set of languages... What languages does it give now?

Now hand it to a third PC who has NO ranks without the headband... What languages does it give now?


Da Brain wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Yes, obviously if Linguistics is tied to the Headband, you would acquire the associated number of languages.

Those are not "bonus languages", which is what this discussion is about.

Ok, here's a corner case for you.

5th lvl PC with 5 ranks in linguistics puts on a head band of INT that gives Linguistics ... Does it give the same set of 5 languages? Or not?

Now hand it to a different PC, with ranks in linguistics witness a different set of languages... What languages does it give now?

Now hand it to a third PC who has NO ranks without the headband... What languages does it give now?

There's nothing interesting about this interaction. For every skill rank in linguistics, you gain knowledge of an additional language. If you already have full ranks in linguistics, you aren't gaining any more by putting on the headband. You get no extra languages other than the +INT ones. Only the third PC gains languages for extra linguistics skill ranks.

A slightly more interesting question would be: what if a 5th level PC has 2 ranks in linguistics and puts on a headband that gives linguistics? It gains 3 ranks so gets 3 languages of the predetermined set... but what 3? What if he has some of those languages already but not others?

Grand Lodge

Da Brain wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Yes, obviously if Linguistics is tied to the Headband, you would acquire the associated number of languages.

Those are not "bonus languages", which is what this discussion is about.

Ok, here's a corner case for you.

5th lvl PC with 5 ranks in linguistics puts on a head band of INT that gives Linguistics ... Does it give the same set of 5 languages? Or not?

I assumed so for a headband that granted Linguistics, so I wrote out the languages it granted when I bought it (yes, twenty of them). If any headband of vast intelligence grants 1 to 3 extra languages by virtue of increased Intelligence, those languages likewise should be recorded when the item is created.

The ranks in a skill granted by a headband don't stack with the ranks the character has naturally. If that skill is Linguistics and goes on a 3rd level character who has 2 learned ranks, he gains 1 rank in Linguistics and therefore gains one language. I assumed it was the first language installed in the headband, but a GM could just as easily rule it's the third.

If the character already knows a language that the headband would impart, that's no different from any other situation when a magic item grants a benefit that doesn't stack with what the user already has.

Grand Lodge

Starglim wrote:
Da Brain wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Yes, obviously if Linguistics is tied to the Headband, you would acquire the associated number of languages.

Those are not "bonus languages", which is what this discussion is about.

Ok, here's a corner case for you.

5th lvl PC with 5 ranks in linguistics puts on a head band of INT that gives Linguistics ... Does it give the same set of 5 languages? Or not?

I assumed so for a headband that granted Linguistics, so I wrote out the languages it granted when I bought it .. The ranks in a skill granted by a headband don't stack with the ranks the character has naturally. If that skill is Linguistics and goes on a 3rd level character who has 2 learned ranks, he gains 1 rank in Linguistics and therefore gains one language.

Apologies, I see I've misread the question and replied in a contradictory fashion. No, a 5th level PC with 5 ranks in Linguistics would not gain any extra languages (unless any headband that increases Intelligence grants them). But a 5th level PC with no ranks in Linguistics would gain 5 languages, that are always the same set, fixed when the headband was created.


The second easiest means of handling that would grant any PC, whether they have linguistics invested in or not, a list of languages learned based on level. Thus doubling those known if they are also investing in linguistics.

The absolute easiest would be to ban linguistics from being the skill chosen by the headband.

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