drsparnum |
I've seen the debate about whether a summoner can/cannot cast enlarge person on his eidolon. I've decided the summoner can.
Now my question is what is the impact of that spell if the eidolon is already large (going to huge) or huge (going to gargantuan)?
Does the damage of the eidolon's natural attacks increase a step?
Does the eidolon's reach improve? I ask the latter question because I would think it does but the spell description specifies the effect for a medium creature going to large and I don't know if that is just an example, or if the reach improvement is restricted to creatures going from medium to large (as opposed to large to huge).
A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet.
The eidolon in question is bipedal if that matters.
darth_gator |
It does exactly what the spell says it does:
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.
Height doubles.
Weight increases by x8.+2 bonus to strength.
-2 penalty to dexterity.
-1 penalty to attack and AC.
Damage increases one step per the progression:
Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
But this topic should really be in the houserule forum, because enlarge person doesn't work on eidolons.
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.
Targe: One humanoid creature
Not a target of "You."
Jeff Merola |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
darth, you're incorrect. Share Spells does two things: Let's you cast personal spells on your Eidolon, and cast spells that normally don't work on Outsiders on your Eidolon. Both are completely separate from each other. When share spells was originally written there were a total of 0 spells that were both Personal AND cared about creature type.
Chess Pwn |
It does exactly what the spell says it does:
d20pfsrd, "Enlarge Person" wrote:This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.Height doubles.
Weight increases by x8.
+2 bonus to strength.
-2 penalty to dexterity.
-1 penalty to attack and AC.
Damage increases one step per the progression:d20pfsrd, "Improved Natural Attack" wrote:Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
But this topic should really be in the houserule forum, because enlarge person doesn't work on eidolons.
d20pfsrd, "Share Spells" wrote:The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.d20pfsrd, "Enlarge Person" wrote:Targe: One humanoid creatureNot a target of "You."
Look at the next sentence,
A summoner can cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).
darth_gator |
False. "Share Spells" specifically states that you can cast spells with a target of "YOU" on your eidolon, even if the spell wouldn't normally affect a creature of the eidolon's type. Enlarge Person doesn't have a target of "YOU," it has a target of "One Humanoid Creature." See the difference?
See Invisibility has a target of "You," allowing you to share it with an eidolon.
This is a pretty simple concept. Spells target specific things. "Share Spells" allows you to cast spells on your eidolon you otherwise can't cast on any other creatures, because other creatures aren't you. If there weren't a large number of spells that have a target of "You" specifically, then the "Share Spells" feature wouldn't specifically state that shared spells must target "You."
Like it or not, that's RAW.
Jeff Merola |
Incorrect. Those two sentences are completely separate. If they weren't that part of the ability would have done absolutely nothing for the vast majority of its existence.
Like it or not, that's how the rule works.
Anyway, if you were correct then this FAQ would be wrong.
Byakko |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The existence of relevant spells which are both "you"-target and "humanoid"-target is irrelevant, and the FAQ doesn't clearly cover this question. So no point using those as logical justifications.
That being said, the rule is worded thus:
Share Spells (Ex)
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
Those are quite clearly two different sentences, and the second in no way references the first.
Thus I agree that these can be taken as independent rules and that Enlarge Person can be cast on your Eidolon with the normal associated benefits and penalties.
There is one counterargument I see, however, which is actually the 3rd sentence:
Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
What is "this" referring to? Shouldn't it read "either of these ways"? Because it uses the word "this", it implies that the preceding two sentences are actually a single joint ability...
wraithstrike |
Enlarge Person works.
You can cast personal spells, and spells that don't normally affect that creature type on your eidolon/familiar/animal companion.
Basically either condition works.
However it must come from that class.
As an example if you are a wizard/summoner the spells you cast as a summoner would use the share spells feature. Your daily wizard spells would not work.
Derklord |
As an example if you are a wizard/summoner the spells you cast as a summoner would use the share spells feature. Your daily wizard spells would not work.
The summoner version of Share Spells only asks for the spell list. So enlarge person from your wizard spells is ok, true strike is not.
Rushley son of Halum |
False. "Share Spells" specifically states that you can cast spells with a target of "YOU" on your eidolon, even if the spell wouldn't normally affect a creature of the eidolon's type. Enlarge Person doesn't have a target of "YOU," it has a target of "One Humanoid Creature." See the difference?
See Invisibility has a target of "You," allowing you to share it with an eidolon.
This is a pretty simple concept. Spells target specific things. "Share Spells" allows you to cast spells on your eidolon you otherwise can't cast on any other creatures, because other creatures aren't you. If there weren't a large number of spells that have a target of "You" specifically, then the "Share Spells" feature wouldn't specifically state that shared spells must target "You."
Like it or not, that's RAW.
"The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list."
Stop omitting parts of the rules that you find inconvenient. There are 2 sentences there which clearly operate independently of each other. Enlarge person works.
Dave Justus |
The OP pretty specifically said he was aware of the eidolon share spells debate and didn't want a rehash of it here.
For anyone that can't grasp that, perhaps just imagine he was asking about giants instead of eidolons.
The enlarge person spell doesn't specify of course, but it is reasonable to use the reach listed on the table here based upon the new size and body conformation. Natural weapons, just like equipment, should increase damage as well.
thaX |
The overall ability that one would have to actually cast this spell should come into focus, even when the OP admitted that there was some debate and arbitrarily decided that he can do this.
Two sentences that are in the same paragraph/stance yet decided that they have nothing to do with one another? Why?
I learned basic English, so just deciding "Hey, a period allows me to ignore basic structure of the language and have 'the rulez' be something else" is not my overall stance to all rulings within the pages of Role/Roll Playing products.
Enlarge Person should not work on an Eidolon. There is also a FAQ concerning stacking of size modifiers on damage/weapons, limiting it to once (1 time).