Precision damage, bleeding arrows, ect vs fortification


Rules Questions


I notice on many weapons feats and the like that there will be in the description saying something to the effect of

example wrote:
If the creature is immune to precision damage (such as critical hits) then it is unaffected by this
. As an example
bleeding arrows wrote:
Creatures immune to critical hits (such as plants and constructs) are immune to the bleed damage dealt by this weapon

. How does this work against a character who has fortification from some source like magic armor?

Is the percent dice rolled as it would be against a critical hit or does whatever is being attacked have to be naturally/magically immune for the quote above to apply?


That's not Immunity. It's a chance to ignore. In fact that chance includes sneak attack.


Michael Grate wrote:
I notice on many weapons feats and the like that there will be in the description saying something to the effect of
example wrote:
If the creature is immune to precision damage (such as critical hits) then it is unaffected by this
.

Can you point me to the source of this example? Critical hits are not based on precision damage (and precision damage doesn't multiple on a critical hit), so I'm confused by example.


Gwen Smith wrote:
Michael Grate wrote:
I notice on many weapons feats and the like that there will be in the description saying something to the effect of
example wrote:
If the creature is immune to precision damage (such as critical hits) then it is unaffected by this
.
Can you point me to the source of this example? Critical hits are not based on precision damage (and precision damage doesn't multiple on a critical hit), so I'm confused by example.

I might be mixing up terms here (I thought critical hits were precision based attacks) but here are some examples of what I am actually talking about for the original question.

The example I used Bleeding Arrows
and here are a few more
Precise strike (though this one does call out that any item protecting the defender from critical hits apply)
Bleed damage in general seems to work this way
Wounding

Wounding wrote:
Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the bleed damage dealt by this weapon.

Quovering Palm

Quivering Palm wrote:
Creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected

So as it stands with critical hits, how does fortification affect these types of instances (bleed, quivering palm, etc.)?


If the fortification chance works then I'd say the creature is immune to the effect carried by that particular attack. I.e. the next successful hit with the bleed weapon would require the fortification to work again or it would cause bleed damage etc..


well bleeding arrow are bad example to use as they are from 3.5 not pathfinder rule set. you need to adjust them to the rule set, using the the same wording as other bleeding effects like wounding weapons. Constructs and plant can be critically hit now.

there are only a few things immune to critical hits, and that is incorporeal, elemental, and ooze and amorphous creatures.

edit: I wish they would have updated them and put them in ultimate EQ but never did.


To answer the OP's question:

If you have an ability that is negated by critical hit immunity, and use that ability against a target with Fortification, I believe that you can apply your ability if they fail their Fortification percentage roll, but you cannot apply your ability if they succeed on their Fortification roll.

However, this is not explicit in the RAW so I'm attempting to extrapolate RAI. Other GMs might run it differently.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Fortification does not provide you with immunity to critical hits. It provides a chance to negate a critical hit

Core Rulebook wrote:
This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Therefore even if the attack is negated you are not immune to it so effects would still work on you. Note that this specifies Sneak Attack and Critical Hits but not precision damage as well, so you can't use fortification versus a Swashbuckler precise strike or other sources of precision damage that are not Critical Hits or Sneak Attacks.

You are still vulnerable to Critical Hits you just don't always get hit by them.


Taenia wrote:

Fortification does not provide you with immunity to critical hits. It provides a chance to negate a critical hit

Core Rulebook wrote:
This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Therefore even if the attack is negated you are not immune to it so effects would still work on you. Note that this specifies Sneak Attack and Critical Hits but not precision damage as well, so you can't use fortification versus a Swashbuckler precise strike or other sources of precision damage that are not Critical Hits or Sneak Attacks.

You are still vulnerable to Critical Hits you just don't always get hit by them.

Precise Strike states
Quote:
...any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike

so I think fortification still applies regardless of other rulings (unless this is a bad carryover or something).

But you're saying that for the other things (IE Quivering Palm) then there is no point in rolling for fortification because the standard effect still takes place regardless?


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Everybody is making this harder than it should be.

If an attacker hits you, you are going to take his normal damage and any special abilities that he has that trigger on damaging you. If he misses or if you are able to negate his hit, then you take no damage and you also avoid all those abilities that trigger on damaging you.

If an attacker scores a critical hit against you, you are going to take his critical hit damage and any special abilities that he has that trigger on getting a critical hit. If you are able to negate his critical hit (but not the hit), then you take normal (not critical) damage and you also avoid all those abilities that trigger on getting the critical hit.

Finally, if you have an ability that makes you immune to a certain kind of damage (slashing damage or energy damage or precision damage or whatever) and you get hit by that kind of damage, you don't take any damage. If your attacker had a special ability that triggered on hitting you, it still affects you (after all, he did hit, just for zero damage). If his special ability triggers on damaging you, it does not affect you because you didn't take that damage.

This all applies every time you are able to ignore an attack or negate an attack, even if you can only do it some of the time (such as the percentile chance with Fortification) - whenever you successfully prevent the damage, you prevent effects as described here, and when you fail to prevent the damage, you suffer the effects as described here.

I'm sure this isn't all explicit in the RAW, but it's basic logic and I don't know of any RAW to contravene this logic. But as always when there is no explicit rule (and sometimes even when there is), there will always be people who disagree, so in the end, this is a GM's call without RAW to make the call for him.


So, for the bleed damage in the OP, it is triggered on a hit. If you are immune to crits you take no bleed damage. Therefore fortification does nothing to prevent the bleed from a hit, since it is not immunity.

/cevah

Liberty's Edge

@DM_Blake

PRD wrote:
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
èquote=PRD]Immunity (Ex or Su) A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

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