The APs do this regularly. I don't understand the rule, at least, not in every case. Disguise self, for example, really makes sense as a potion. Eh, no big deal for me or the guys I play with.
Some spells are balanced by the fact that they can't be cast on others and require magical training to usec
Afaik, NPC's could even have potions of Wish, because they don't always will follow the same rules as PC's and might have their own spell variations or new magic items.
Some spells are balanced by the fact that they can't be cast on others and require magical training to use
Things like Shield, Divine Favor, Mirror Image, various polymorphs, can become overpowered when cast on an already powerful martial.
But See Invisibility and Disguise Self being Personal spells just increases caster-martial disparity. Sorry, Rogue, we don't need you for this infiltration mission, the Wizard can do it better himself.
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"The rules clearly state that personal range spells can't be made into potions, yet our group keeps running into NPCs that have them. Are we misunderstanding the rules, or are all these NPCs being printed with fundamental errors?" does merit a response.
I don't think that's the right question either. We all know these NPCs are violating the rules, and it's probably due to editing errors. There are better uses of the FAQ system than trying to force an apology out of Paizo.
A better question would be, "Some NPCs have potions of personal spells, which are impossible according to the crafting rules. How should the GM handle this?"
And they could give an answer like, "Treat these as unique elixirs that cannot be reproduced by normal means."
Or "Replace them with similar but legal items."
The easiest solution is for the text for all those offending potions to be changed to elixirs.
You know, potions created by Craft Wondrous Item, not Brew Potion
Preferably with a standardised pricing system, caster level formula, etc., in case players want to be able to make or sell them.
Preferably with a standardised pricing system, caster level formula, etc., in case players want to be able to make or sell them.The easiest solution is for the text for all those offending potions to be changed to elixirs.
You know, potions created by Craft Wondrous Item, not Brew Potion
This. If this were the case, I'd be fully satisfied, at least then they've become part of the rules, rather than a "unique case" or an "editing error." I've found these often enough in various books that there should be some kind of response.
Just my two cents:
Rise of the Runelords has a half-elf that is a Lv1 Alchemist/Lv2 Expert who, mind you, RUNS A POTION SHOP.
The description of the character says "he considers himself a gifted potion maker"
How he makes potion is beyond logical rule explanation.
Meanwhile next door, you have a LV 5 Alchemist Successfully brewing potions and remedies, and for some odd reason these two people are competitors?
Rise of the Runelords has a half-elf that is a Lv1 Alchemist/Lv2 Expert who, mind you, RUNS A POTION SHOP.
The description of the character says "he considers himself a gifted potion maker"
How he makes potion is beyond logical rule explanation.
By being an Alchemist and using the Brew Potion feat?
Rise of the Runelords has a half-elf that is a Lv1 Alchemist/Lv2 Expert who, mind you, RUNS A POTION SHOP.
The description of the character says "he considers himself a gifted potion maker"
How he makes potion is beyond logical rule explanation.
By being an Alchemist and using the Brew Potion feat?
Oddly enough, I completely blanked that alchemist's got brew potion at Lv1 Without needing to meet prerequisites, :p
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Preferably with a standardised pricing system, caster level formula, etc., in case players want to be able to make or sell them.The easiest solution is for the text for all those offending potions to be changed to elixirs.
You know, potions created by Craft Wondrous Item, not Brew Potion
Opening up for self-only 'potions', but for Craft Wondrous Items instead of Brew Potion will make CWI significantly more powerful than it already is. Since CWI arguably already the most useful crafting feat, I don't think that's a good idea. I'm not crazy about making self-only spells like Divine Favor, Shield and Mirror Image be easier to put into play, but if you decide to do so then I think it should be legal under Brew Potion, not CWI.
I think a better idea is to go through the spell list and see if spells like See Invisibility and Disguise Self really need to be self-only in the first place. In my opinion, those two spells would be perfectly balanced if they had a range of Touch instead of Self-Only.
I think a better idea is to go through the spell list and see if spells like See Invisibility and Disguise Self really need to be self-only in the first place. In my opinion, those two spells would be perfectly balanced if they had a range of Touch instead of Self-Only.
I agree, but that wouldn't solve the original problem (except for retrospectively legalising a small proportion of the NPC stat blocks).
Preferably with a standardised pricing system, caster level formula, etc., in case players want to be able to make or sell them.The easiest solution is for the text for all those offending potions to be changed to elixirs.
You know, potions created by Craft Wondrous Item, not Brew Potion
Opening up for self-only 'potions', but for Craft Wondrous Items instead of Brew Potion will make CWI significantly more powerful than it already is. Since CWI arguably already the most useful crafting feat, I don't think that's a good idea. I'm not crazy about making self-only spells like Divine Favor, Shield and Mirror Image be easier to put into play, but if you decide to do so then I think it should be legal under Brew Potion, not CWI.
I think a better idea is to go through the spell list and see if spells like See Invisibility and Disguise Self really need to be self-only in the first place. In my opinion, those two spells would be perfectly balanced if they had a range of Touch instead of Self-Only.
Um... using CWI to make an elixir for personal range spells or others already is in the rules.
True, but at the moment they're in the "Ask your GM about making a custom Elixir of Mirror Image and the GM sets the price and they're forbidden in PFS" category. An official ruling might be a major boost to CWI users, especially if the price were set too low.
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Shouldn't anything that is published by Paizo undergo a rigorous enough editing standard that things that clearly break the rules don't make it in? I get that the rules are the law of the game, but if you are hiring people to create NPCs, shouldn't those NPCs have to conform to the same rules as everybody else? And shouldn't you be hiring people to create them that are pretty darn familiar with the rules? FAQ or errata request I don't care. If the button gets hit enough times, something will be done about it, and I, for one, believe something should be done.Sincere question: wouldn't the rules from the CRB supercede a freelancer's NPC where he might have missed that rule?
You can still make elixirs of personal spells with Create Wondrous Item.
Even the Vietnam War Memorial has spelling errors. It is/was one of the most highly scrutinized documents in the world.
The lowest percentage of errors you are able to achieve within a written document is something like 1-2%, with a lot of money, investment, and editing.
Shouldn't anything that is published by Paizo undergo a rigorous enough editing standard that things that clearly break the rules don't make it in? I get that the rules are the law of the game, but if you are hiring people to create NPCs, shouldn't those NPCs have to conform to the same rules as everybody else? And shouldn't you be hiring people to create them that are pretty darn familiar with the rules? FAQ or errata request I don't care. If the button gets hit enough times, something will be done about it, and I, for one, believe something should be done.Sincere question: wouldn't the rules from the CRB supercede a freelancer's NPC where he might have missed that rule?
You can still make elixirs of personal spells with Create Wondrous Item.
Even the Vietnam War Memorial has spelling errors. It is/was one of the most highly scrutinized documents in the world.
The lowest percentage of errors you are able to achieve within a written document is something like 1-2%, with a lot of money, investment, and editing.
I mean this in the most sincere and respectful way, spelling errors don't really fit in this topic. I'm guessing there are some spelling errors in the NPC books as well. Including items that are a clear violation of the rules, is something completely different. I understand that errors are going to happen, even with seasoned developers, and veteran freelancers. The number of errors involving this particular rule seem to form a trend, and that needs fixing, in my opinion.
A single instance of errors does not equal a trend. A single instance of anything does not equal a trend.
But it's not a single instance. It's multiple stat blocks over multiple books. How is that not a trend?
Are the stat blocks created by the same authors?
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The case about potions is an issue of rules placement. Why is that rule only in the section about creating potions? You know who doesn't read the section on creating potions? The player of the fighter who goes to the local temple to buy some potions. If the GM isn't one who regularly creates potions they may not realize it themselves. This rule should have been repeated in several sections of the text. Redundancy is not always a bad thing, especially when rules are so spread out.
I've seen several players in PFS that had potions of personal spells simply because they didn't realize it was a rule. Since PFS doesn't allow players to create magic items and these players sometimes only ever play PFS instead of home campaigns, they never bothered to read the rules on magic item creation.
I know that the person who created the Potions chart for the GMG mistakenly added a number of personal potions to the list. He made a post that basically said "Whoops, my bad, sorry. They shouldn't be on the list" after it was brought up, as personal potions are not meant to be a thing.
There's also a FAQ about personal alchemist extracts given out using Infusion, as that bypasses the rule of no personal "potions".
Are the stat blocks created by the same authors?
I'm not sure it really matters whether they keep employing one guy who makes mistakes to write lots of books, or lots of guys who make the same mistakes.
Paizo makes mistakes. I don't know how many mistakes is too many, but if they bother you that much, I suggest switching to a simpler, less error-prone gaming system.
There's also a FAQ about personal alchemist extracts given out using Infusion, as that bypasses the rule of no personal "potions".
(which is: "Yes, you can. The design team may decide to close this loophole in the next printing of the Advanced Player's Guide.")