I wanted to create characters like those for some campaigns, but the tasks seems complicated, because they are mostly martial characters that don't need the use of armor and accomplish some awesome tasks not available for common fighters.
This is the far as i went:
I think Li Mu Bai is a monk (with some fighter levels?). But i don't know how he seems to use the sword for a flurry of blows or to defend himself from almost a hundred darts with the sword.
Jade Fox could be a rogue, assassin, with a few monk levels (cause she was learning the Wudang techniques), a few witch levels, maybe just one.
Jen clearly have a few aristocrat levels, rogue levels, some monk levels (as she surpassed Jade Fox in the study of the same techniques). But again, still lost as how she uses no armor at all.
Yu Shu Lien is easier, she is a weapon master, a master of arms, and i just need to find a way to allow her to not to need the armor. Maybe she has one or two monk levels. Is she maybe a balanced mixture of fighter and monk?
I use sorcerer for all that stuff!
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Monk (both types), rogue/ninja, fighter, and barbarian are all obvious choices. Brawler could work, as could swashbuckler, oddly enough, if given a little Far Eastern flavoring. Warrior, expert, and aristocrat are all options as well.
Are you asking for Paizo-only options? Or can people suggest 3rd-party?
Mmmm... I'd be interested in 3rd party as long as it is OGL :P xD
I use sorcerer for all that stuff!
Sorcerer doesn't work. They use the abilities without casting. So, NO. Sorcerer is not exactly an option.
Monk (both types), rogue/ninja, fighter, and barbarian are all obvious choices. Brawler could work, as could swashbuckler, oddly enough, if given a little Far Eastern flavoring. Warrior, expert, and aristocrat are all options as well.
What do you mean with "Monk (both types)"?
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Monk (both types), rogue/ninja, fighter, and barbarian are all obvious choices. Brawler could work, as could swashbuckler, oddly enough, if given a little Far Eastern flavoring. Warrior, expert, and aristocrat are all options as well.What do you mean with "Monk (both types)"?
Core and Unchained.
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Sorcerer doesn't work. They use the abilities without casting. So, NO. Sorcerer is not exactly an option.
The somatic components are kung fu gestures, and the verbal components are them yelling "hi-YA!" and so on. And sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free. All the time they spend meditating, they're regaining spell slots for the day. I'm really not seeing the problem.
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I looked into this once. There are a few options. Nothing is going to get you the 'perfect' wire-fu martial artist character without gheshtalting or going into mythic tiers, but there are some ones that can get the flavor close.
1) Magus. So you don't HAVE to go shocking grasp style with your magus, you can load up on spells like feather step, spider climb, and jump, which would let you sword play and leap through the air. Plus you could one-handed wield a Jian (the long, straight style of sword, like the one from crouching tiger) and use the arcane mark trick to essentially get flurry. I know it's spellcasting, but like Gersen said, you could cover that up with kung fu gestures and copious 'hi-ya's
1a) Esoteric magus lets you do it with unarmed strikes for kung-fu instead of sword-fu!
2) Warpriest: using the fervor option to swift-cast spells could get you several of the magical effects you need without actually 'casting' them as spells. The sacred fist option even gives you the monk skills as class skills and lets you unarmed kung-fu it up.
3) Monk (including Sohei) Take extra ki a few times and you can start getting rediculus at higher levels. Spider step lets you run on water, cloud step lets you run on air for short bursts of time. Sohei lets you flurry of blows with your favored weapon (at sixth level).
4) Ninja. They can get a climb speed, they can get tricks to phase through walls. They can be assassins. Really, a lot of what you need right there.
5)Several of the psychic classes, medium, occultist, and mesmerist could lend themselves well to this style of play. You can get a few utility spells to get going (it doesn't even have verbal or somantic components) and then just pick up a few feats. The medium could channel kung fu masters of ages past, the occultist could rely on holy artifacts, and the mesmerist could use hidden kung-fu powers to hypnotise/manipulate you while he feints.
Again, nothing is PERFECT, but there are some solid options if you are willing to be a little loose with your definition of 'wire fu master.'
VampByDay has good suggestions. The magus makes a fantastic ninja. Just refluff the magic as chahkra techniques.
Sorcerer doesn't work. They use the abilities without casting. So, NO. Sorcerer is not exactly an option.The somatic components are kung fu gestures, and the verbal components are them yelling "hi-YA!" and so on. And sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free. All the time they spend meditating, they're regaining spell slots for the day. I'm really not seeing the problem.There's a bunch of other stuff that comes with being a sorcerer that clashes with the feel. Spell lists and all that comes with them, that you can use scrolls & wands, etc. Of course, you can rationalize that too or just not use them.
Plus anyone with the appropriate skills/abilities can look at you and realize you're casting spells and what spells they are, no matter how much you pretend it's not really casting.
Still not seeing it. I mean, obviously spider climb is on everyone's spell list (duh), and it's also pretty obvious even to me when they've cast it, and I've not got a lot of ranks in Spellcraft.
The fact that they can use wands doesn't mean that they will or do.
As I said, still not seeing it.
OTOH, you're basically right, but the fact that one of the best ways to do this is to play a gimped sorcerer bothers me a lot.
I'd suggest that it probably should bother people. It bothers me, too. But if you want to do anything cool in Pathfinder at higher levels, you pretty much have to be a caster; that's just how the game is set up.
If you want to have no spellcasting, and still be able to do stuff other than hit people with a stick, Pathfinder doesn't really support that -- and arguably isn't intended to. (Likewise, the James Bond 007 game doesn't support orc wizards.)
So, the options pretty much are: (a) play a sorcerer and reflavor it, or (b) lower your expectations (a monk can do a small amount of the stuff you want to do, but can't do any of it very well), or (c) play a different character concept, or (d) play a different game.
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Psychic Warrior with the right feats and power selection can do most, if not all of that stuff...
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Unchained Monk with Ascetic Style seems like the best way to make a weapon-using unarmored warrior who can do ki feats. You can make other classes fill the same niche, but they all take a lot more work, or have built in flavor constraints that you would have to ignore, and some people don't like that.
Li Mu Bai would have been of a significantly higher level than anyone else in the film, and the Green Destiny was a (I believe) the equivalent of an epic level weapon. He was only killed by Jade Fox because her entire "build" was designed to do so.
I'm not familiar enough with 3rd party material to make a suggestion but I'm sure there is something good. Failing that, I would go with monk, although no Paizo class will do a really bang-up job of it. I hate to say it, but the D&D 4e monk class nails it pretty good. With the right power selection, it gets to fly/jump the way they do in the film.
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Dragon Tiger Ox, 3pp Wuxia book. http://paizo.com/products/btpy94cn?Dragon-Tiger-Ox-WuxiaWushu-Sourcebook
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I think Li Mu Bai is a monk (with some fighter levels?). But i don't know how he seems to use the sword for a flurry of blows or to defend himself from almost a hundred darts with the sword.
That's because in his universe, what monks use are called "weapons," whereas in Pathfinder, they are "monk weapons."
A lot of problems disappear if you homebrew a feat, something along these lines:
Monk Weapon
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (the specified weapon)
Pick one weapon with which you have Weapon Focus. It is now treated as being a monk weapon. You also gain some other minor benefit so this feat doesn't suck as much.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, but at that point, you are probably better off going Monk 1/Fighter or Swashbuckler X.
Wow, there are a lot of ideas here.
I want to look into the monk archetypes and the unchained monk. They sound a reasonable and effortless way to accomplish a few things of the wuxia genre. Maybe the unchained skills would work for it.
Some feats are nice and to check into other game rules compatible with d20 would work also.
To reflavor the magic sounds weird, mostly because PF magic is really western flavored to begin with, and to hide the casting behind kung fu moves is weird, considering that's what they do when switching styles. Buuuuut, all those suggestions made me think of another path, the psionics.
I don't know about psychic magic in PF, so i'd have to see it before considering it an option, but somehow i think it could work also.
Mythic stuff? I have to read it too, it could work, cause wuxia genre is about legendary people doing legendary stuff.
But after all i have to agree that PF don't manage wuxia genre very well and it is a lot of work to make it works to detail... but, someone could come and create some modules for it.
Eh, just call the jian a Temple Sword, and the problem goes away.
No. Again and again, it is a misconception that the jian is like a western sword, it is more like the rapier, because it is highly maneuverable and requires technique rather than strength. It is strange, and unexpected, that PF didn't consider it... :/
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Wow, there are a lot of ideas here.
I want to look into the monk archetypes and the unchained monk. They sound a reasonable and effortless way to accomplish a few things of the wuxia genre. Maybe the unchained skills would work for it.
Some feats are nice and to check into other game rules compatible with d20 would work also.
To reflavor the magic sounds weird, mostly because PF magic is really western flavored to begin with, and to hide the casting behind kung fu moves is weird, considering that's what they do when switching styles. Buuuuut, all those suggestions made me think of another path, the psionics.
I don't know about psychic magic in PF, so i'd have to see it before considering it an option, but somehow i think it could work also.
Mythic stuff? I have to read it too, it could work, cause wuxia genre is about legendary people doing legendary stuff.
But after all i have to agree that PF don't manage wuxia genre very well and it is a lot of work to make it works to detail... but, someone could come and create some modules for it.
Did you look at the Path of War as suggested above?
Did you look at the Path of War as suggested above?
Yes i'm looking it, and it looks like a magic-like system for the combat tasks. It's more complex than expected so i need to look into it carefully... But i'm liking what i'm seeing.
I just don't understand how normal classes get maneuvers in Path of War system.
There is an alternate class for cavalier that is a samurai.
Eh, just call the jian a Temple Sword, and the problem goes away.No. Again and again, it is a misconception that the jian is like a western sword, it is more like the rapier, because it is highly maneuverable and requires technique rather than strength. It is strange, and unexpected, that PF didn't consider it... :/
The Rapier is a western sword...
Futhermore, every sword is designed to be wielded with technique. There's a reason the jian is almost identical to the longsword in design, because they are both designed to be versatile.
/offtopic
What I mean is, give at least a bit of reflavoring a shot. I agree sorcerer is a weird suggestion, but the magus can work very well. I'd avoid Mythic builds, myself. The system is really unbalanced.
Edit: To get Path of War Maneuvers with feats, you need the Martial Training feats.
The Jian is a 'flexible' sword, not as strong and straight as a Western longsword. That's why it is likened to a rapier, but does slashing damage.
It's made for kung fu and use against light/no armor, not hacking through plate.
==Aelryinth
The Jian is a 'flexible' sword, not as strong and straight as a Western longsword. That's why it is likened to a rapier, but does slashing damage.
It's made for kung fu and use against light/no armor, not hacking through plate.
==Aelryinth
It still isn't different enough IMO to warrant a separate entry on the weapon table. Not until the Shillelagh of my countrymen gets an entry separate from Club.
Sharp metal sticks to cut with were around a lot earlier than plate armor was. And the only kind of sword to my knowledge designed to "hack" through armor was the greatsword. Everything smaller had to get in the joints, under the helmet, etc...
/end of offtopic
Personally, I think the Unchained Monk does a good job of replicating wuxia combat. Flying Kicks that travel minimum 10 ft through the air, supernatural abilities that come from within themselves, doesn't suck, Etc...
It would be considered a 'finesse' weapon, and probably have a scimitar's stats, not a longsword's. Mass and power and all that.
==Aelryinth
Barring an archtype? They can take a feat from the martial training feat line (I - IX). Each feat grants a maneuver and stance or two manuevers (roughly) of a particular level.
Archtypes dictate what and how the class gains maneuvers individually.
As for complexity, it is basically the same idea as a sorcerer. You have maneuvers known (total available) and can only have a single instance of the maneuver readied at a time.
To help facilitate getting used to the mechanic, often times players will have "cards" written up, similar to a spell card lets say. So the ones they have readied are in hand and can discard them as they get used. There is also a fan made sheet on the forums here (probably in the third party forum) that is designed for PoW and has check boxes for which are readied and for when used if you want to go that route.
Barring an archtype? They can take a feat from the martial training feat line (I - IX). Each feat grants a maneuver and stance or two manuevers (roughly) of a particular level.
Oh, nice, i saw them... sadly they seem to just go until lvl 6, and not 9 :/
Even if i adapt it to 9 levels... that's 9 feats to spent to give it to a normal class! A lot! Almost all fighter feats.
It still isn't different enough IMO to warrant a separate entry on the weapon table. Not until the Shillelagh of my countrymen gets an entry separate from Club.The Jian is a 'flexible' sword, not as strong and straight as a Western longsword. That's why it is likened to a rapier, but does slashing damage.
It's made for kung fu and use against light/no armor, not hacking through plate.
==Aelryinth
As said a few times on the forums, people keeps ignoring the unique features of the jian and see no difference of it with western swords.
First it is a light weapon designed to work with technique rather than strength, in other words is a finesse weapon. And it is an elaborated weapon made for civilian use. Ok, now we are tempted to just use the stats of the rapier and add slashing to its types. But...
... the jian is not only called the chinese sword, but the tai ji sword, it is used in tai ji and that adds the jian to the monk weapons. Then it gets the special monk quality. Now we are tempted to use the temple sword stats... but remember, finesse and half the weight. Back to rapier...
... except for the finesse part... so it is a different weapon.
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Dexterity is not technique.
BAB is technique.
Use a Temple Sword.
Stop whining.
Dexterity is not technique.
BAB is technique.
Use a Temple Sword.
Stop whining.
Don't be so stubborn. People that learnt to use the jian acknowledge it is a finessable sword, like the rapier. Alike the rapier, the jian was sophisticated civilian's weapon, not a war implement.
I guess you need to see tai ji masters using the jian to understand it. You can use strength for it, but you can also use dexterity with it; and that's what the finesse feat is for.
You can see how it blends when being used, unlike the temple swords, based in the khopesh and other mid eastern and indian weapons, and the western swords. It blends much like the rapier and other fencing weapons.
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Dexterity is not technique.
BAB is technique.
Use a Temple Sword.
Stop whining.
Don't be so stubborn. People that learnt to use the jian acknowledge it is a finessable sword, like the rapier. Alike the rapier, the jian was sophisticated civilian's weapon, not a war implement.
I guess you need to see tai ji masters using the jian to understand it. You can use strength for it, but you can also use dexterity with it; and that's what the finesse feat is for.
You can see how it blends when being used, unlike the temple swords, based in the khopesh and other mid eastern and indian weapons, and the western swords. It blends much like the rapier and other fencing weapons.
I watched the first video, "Form 32 Taiji Jian"? I like the demonstration, but I have to be honest, he did literally nothing that couldn't be done equally well with an Arming Sword (what this game calls the Long Sword, and my point of comparison.) At least in my eyes. It's starting to look like you're a fan of one section of historical weaponry, but not especially well versed in the one you're drawing comparisons too.
At least it isn't a katana.
Edit: Still waiting for my 1d8 x4 Crit mod shillelagh. People who use it acknowledge it delivers a crushing blow.
A finesse weapon doesn't need to be LIGHT. A rapier is actually heavier then most arming swords.
It's how it is balanced. If the weight is centered towards the hilt or pommel, the blade of the weapon is counter-balanced and becomes very easy to move around.
If the weight is balanced towards the blade, then the blade has greater momentum and cutting power, but is harder to control, placing more strain on the wrist and forearm.
I'd have it do less damage then a longsword, but be finessable. It being a Monk weapon is debateable...it's more used by martial art schools then monastic sects historically, and basically was a favorite of civilians practicing swordplay.
==Aelryinth
Barring an archtype? They can take a feat from the martial training feat line (I - IX). Each feat grants a maneuver and stance or two manuevers (roughly) of a particular level.Oh, nice, i saw them... sadly they seem to just go until lvl 6, and not 9 :/
Even if i adapt it to 9 levels... that's 9 feats to spent to give it to a normal class! A lot! Almost all fighter feats.
Sorry didn't look past the first 3 or 4.
The reason they don't go to 9 is basically, they aren't actual initiators. Each ability is fairly powerful, usuable every encounter and if you multiclass much even a normal initiator won't have access to 9th level manuevers.
It is there to add spice to other classes, not compete with the initiators main schtick. If you want the highest level abilities, play an initiator. Just as if you want access to the highest level spells, you play a full caster.
I watched the first video, "Form 32 Taiji Jian"? I like the demonstration, but I have to be honest, he did literally nothing that couldn't be done equally well with an Arming Sword (what this game calls the Long Sword, and my point of comparison.)
Well, i shared the wrong link, i have to admit, to my own bad.
Maybe try this one Wudang Sword - Tai Yi Daoist Form and Applications.At least in my eyes. It's starting to look like you're a fan of one section of historical weaponry, but not especially well versed in the one you're drawing comparisons too.
Well... maybe, maybe. But it is more to find how to make the weapons in wuxia genre work without forcing them to be western weapons. And alike without forcing the western classes work for it by just disguising them.
At least it isn't a katana.
Oh, no! I won't go that far.
Edit: Still waiting for my 1d8 x4 Crit mod shillelagh. People who use it acknowledge it delivers a crushing blow.
You are making me really curious about the shillelagh. I like it, and i maybe give it x3 or x4 in the critic, right. Adding lead to one side makes it just more than a simple stick.
Anyway, the discussion is not about the jian, but the classes for the wuxia characters, specially the ones shown in this movie...
I'd have it do less damage then a longsword, but be finessable. It being a Monk weapon is debateable...it's more used by martial art schools then monastic sects historically, and basically was a favorite of civilians practicing swordplay.
Well, according to the movie, Li Mu Bai is a Wudang Monk, and his weapon is that sword. We have to consider also that the PF monk is not limited to the monastic type. It includes the martial arts schools and other disciplines. It is the class i'd use to make capoeira fighters, if there's no one already, for example; people using their bodies and work tools to become living weapons.
But, i won't give it for free to monks. It is a monk weapon, but they still need to spend a feat to get proficiency with it, except if we make a wudang archetype... if it doesn't already exist...
I might make martial art school students UNCHAINED monks, but the religious/philosophical feel of the original monk, not so much.
The shillelagh at its best would evolve to a mace, which is basically a metal weighted club. So, nothing special about it, other then a well-made shillelagh could be considered a masterwork club. Note that it's not the only example of well-made clubs, if you want to start looking at knob-kerrie's and some of the warclubs of the Askari.
==Aelryinth
At least in my eyes. It's starting to look like you're a fan of one section of historical weaponry, but not especially well versed in the one you're drawing comparisons too.Well... maybe, maybe. But it is more to find how to make the weapons in wuxia genre work without forcing them to be western weapons. And alike without forcing the western classes work for it by just disguising them.
Let me ask you a question then. Aside from the theatrics and imagery the names come with, what inherently "western" and "eastern" mechanics do you see in the Cavalier compared to the Samurai?