Magic Item Creation

[Caraldur]

One of my players wants to create a wooden platform with four chairs attached to it. He then wants a levitate spell on each chair at caster level 3 (300 lbs weight limit each chair).

The plans is then to have a flying creature tow the platform around; a poor man's flying carpet.

My question is: Would each chair than be a magic item or would the entire assemble be the magic item.

Cost
2*8*1800= 10800gp if the whole assemble is considered the magic item.

2*3*1800*4 = 43200gp

I personally think that each chair would be a separate magic item, but I wanted to get some input from the Paizo community.

Thanks,
-Car

[DominusMegadeus]

You make each chair magically float on it's own, then just strap/bolt them together. Would always be separate magic items, in my opinion.

[QuidEst]

Each has its own weight limit, so individually priced. The cost is very high, though. Try pricing it using Floating Disk instead, since that seems a little more appropriate to the actual functionality.

[ryric]

Since the first step in custom item pricing is to compare it to existing items, you really should never get a cheaper item with the same functionality by shuffling spells around.

This isn't quite a carpet of flying, since it can't move horizontally over its own power. I'd count it all as one item since the chairs are permanently attached to each other. Also magic is funky when it comes to physics - just because each chair can hold 300 pounds doesn't mean 4 of them can lift a 1200 pound item.

So the player wants a levitating platform that can hold 1200 pounds. This, the final result, is the thing you should examine when adjudicating a custom item. All the bits about spells used and so forth are irrelevant unless there is nothing to compare it to. Remember the formulas from that table are a last resort.

IMO this item compare to a carpet of flying, so we should go by its pricing structure. This is levitating instead of flying, so I think a price reduction is in order, but it also has a larger weight capacity than any carpet, so extrapolating from the CoF pricing we get:

60k*2/3*1.25 = ~50k for your floating battle platform. Expensive, but the "disadvantage" of not actually flying is already something your player has a workaround for, so it's not really much of a limitation.

[Crimeo]

I think you could certainly ask to cast one spell on the whole thing, BUT it would definitely then be subject to a single unit of weight limit. If you want all 4 weight limits, then you needed 4 enchanted chairs.

Quote:

I'd count it all as one item since the chairs are permanently attached to each other.

There is explicit precedent in the rules that mundane physical attachment is not sufficient to make something one magic item. For example, double ended weapons are physically attached, yet tell you to treat both fighting ends as separate for enchantments. Same for armor spikes, physically attached yet tells you to treat armor and spikes as separate for enchantments. Or two cursed items like a ring and a necklace that you cannot remove mundanely are in effect attached to one another, yet still treated separately for enchantments. Not to mention there being simply no mention of this in the magic item rules. What would you do if somebody just separately bough a circlet of persuasion and headband of vast intellect, and tied them together with rope? The rope disappears into the void or something? Divine force stops them from tying the knot? No rules cover this, so it seems clear nothing special would happen without house rules.

And it doesn't seem to cause a balance issue, either, since the 4xchairs strapped together adds up to ~42k, and your single platform math added up to ~50k.

[DM_Blake]

To answer the OP, there is no reason you need to make 4 separate chair items attached to the platform. Just make this as one big item. Consider that you can use Fireball to make a flaming sword, but that flaming sword is not bound by the limitations of the Fireball spell (for example, the flames on the sword are permanent, not instantaneous).

In other words, unless you're making something like a potion or wand, your finished item has its OWN properties and abilities and is NOT simply casting the spell that you used to create it.

So make your platform with 4 chairs or 40 chairs or whatever, then use your Levitation spell while creating the item. In the end, it's one item that does exactly what you described.

As for pricing it, see Ryric's post. You should definitely not build this item for the price of a single continuous Levitate spell. It's more valuable than that (especially if you go with my 40-chair suggestion, or build into it some walls and a roof and even some arrow slits and such - make it a covered armor battlewagon).

You should figure out what YOU think it's worth (I think Ryric's suggested price was a little high), then set that as the final price, use Levitation as the required spell, and let the guy make it.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

You should figure out what YOU think it's worth (I think Ryric's suggested price was a little high), then set that as the final price, use Levitation as the required spell, and let the guy make it.

So then the player sits there, quietly nodding, waits for you to rule it, then proceeds to build four of these whole platforms and ropes all those together.

What happens? (I'm not trying to imply a specific answer, I have no idea. It seems an important question to consider though for such a system)

[DM_Blake]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

You should figure out what YOU think it's worth (I think Ryric's suggested price was a little high), then set that as the final price, use Levitation as the required spell, and let the guy make it.

So then the player sits there, quietly nodding, waits for you to rule it, then proceeds to build four of these whole platforms and ropes all those together.

What happens? (I'm not trying to imply a specific answer, I have no idea. It seems an important question to consider though for such a system)

I don't understand your question, so I'll try to restate it.

Let's say that the OP decides, for example, that a four-seat levitating platform should be worth 30,000gp. It now takes the PC 30 days and 15,000gp to build one, using Levitation as a required spell (or +5 DC if he doesn't use it). And now he has a 4-seat wooden platform that can levitate and be towed around by mules.

So you're asking what happens if he makes four of those and ties them together?

Well, I suppose for 120 days of effort and 60,000gp total, he has FOUR 4-seat wooden platform that can levitate and be towed around by mules. He can put 16 people on them, four per platform, and they can go any direction they like. And if he wants to tie those together to make a single 16-seat wooden platform that can levitate and be towed around my mules, then there doesn't seem to be any problem with that. Either way he's got 16 people on levitating platforms.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

So you're asking what happens if he makes four of those and ties them together?

Well, I suppose for 120 days of effort and 60,000gp total, he has FOUR 4-seat wooden platform that can levitate and be towed around by mules.

So by the same logic, he could have just not told you in the first place that he intended to make a platform at all, and asked for your price for one chair, waited for you to agree, then lashed them together in a platform.

Thus forcing you into the other answer to this question at the end of the day anyway (i.e. price it per chair). Maybe not the first time, but once you tip your hand that this is how you rule object prices, don't ever expect that table to make the same mistake again of telling you their intentions up front.

(IF your whole unit prices end up being higher, of course, not if lower. Your 30,000 base price example would be a cause for celebration of otherwise it would have been 42. But another poster's suggestion of 50 would just cause "mums the word" strategy later).

Sure you could just change the rules again later, but not likely to result in happy players.

It's not a RAW argument or anything, just a practical observation on some logistical limits to a GM's options here.

[DM_Blake]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

So you're asking what happens if he makes four of those and ties them together?

Well, I suppose for 120 days of effort and 60,000gp total, he has FOUR 4-seat wooden platform that can levitate and be towed around by mules.

So by the same logic, he could have just not told you in the first place that he intended to make a platform at all, and asked for your price for one chair, waited for you to agree, then lashed them together in a platform.

Thus forcing you into the other answer to this question at the end of the day anyway (i.e. price it per chair). Maybe not the first time, but once you tip your hand that this is how you rule object prices, don't ever expect that table to make the same mistake again of telling you their intentions up front.

(IF your whole unit prices end up being higher, of course, not if lower. Your 30,000 base price example would be a cause for celebration of otherwise it would have been 42. But another poster's suggestion of 50 would just cause "mums the word" strategy later).

Sure you could just change the rules again later, but not likely to result in happy players.

It's not a RAW argument or anything, just a practical observation on some logistical limits to a GM's options here.

The solution, in this case, is to build in a weight limit. I wouldn't set it to an exact number of pounds. I would just say "You've made a platform with 4 chairs that levitates and can hold weight equal to 4 average medium adventurers with reasonable gear."

I've never had the kind of players that would exploit something like that. "Oh yeah, what's reasonable? Conan over here is carrying 8,000 pounds of gear we found, is that reasonable???". But if you have that kind of player, well, I'm glad it's your problem and not mine.

And if you don't, then you also probably won't have them trying to put 16 people on an item designed for just 4, nor will they likely expect to pay the same price to make an item that CAN hold the 16 people.

I honestly feel sorry for GMs out there who are playing campaigns with players at their table who are constantly looking for loopholes and other ways to trap the GM with rules-lawyering, especially lawyering the GM's personal rulings. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

And if you don't, then you also probably won't have them trying to put 16 people on an item designed for just 4, nor will they likely expect to pay the same price to make an item that CAN hold the 16 people.

Not the same price, 4x the price for 4x the people. 1/4 the price for 1/4 the people, etc. That would be the inherent logic of "price it by item / lashed together stuff is just stuff lashed together" in the first place.

Any other method seems inherently based on "price should not be linear for a linearly increasing benefit." (otherwise why not just the more intuitive individual pricing?)

It's only methods that try to make linear gold =/= linear weight and standing room that I would expect players to revolt against by undermining. (unless again, the alternative is actually cheaper than linear)

[ryric]

Just to point out, carpet of flying is not 1:1 linear by weight it can hold. It's actually less than 1:1 - 4 times the weight only triples the price.

I have a quick question - what is the purpose of doing 4 CL3 levitates to get 1200 lbs, rather than one CL12? The total price would be the same (if you price it using the table, which again I don't recommend) and you don't have to have the actual caster level of an item to make it.

Why not just make a floating platform using CL12 levitate instead of fussing with all the chair business? (Unnecessary complications set off my GM alert)

[Cevah]

EDIT: Formula for Levitate is 2*3*2000*2 = 24,000 gp for each chair.

How about a Magical Flying Wagon?
Animated Object lists a Wagon as size Huge.
A Huge object has base 30' speed, 7 HD and 4 CP.
Spend the 4 CP as follows:
1) Additional Movement (Ex, 1 CP): Gains a new mode of movement (burrow, climb, fly [clumsy], or swim) at a speed equal to its base speed.
-- Choose Fly
2,3,4) Faster (Ex, 1 CP): One of the object's movement modes increases by +10 ft.
-- Choose Fly, Fly, Fly
The wagon now has a speed of 30', Fly 60' [clumsy]
On the main page for the spell, are the Animated Object listing a price of "cost of object + [(animated object’s HD + CP) × 1,000])", which for a wagon is:
Light 50 gp
Medium 75 gp
Heavy 100 gp
So, say 100 gp (heavy wagon) + [7+4]*1000 (enchantment) = 11,100 gp.
Str 30, huge quadruped (4 wheels) = 6*532 = 3192 # light load, 6*1066 = 6396 # medium load, and 6*1600 = 9600 # heavy load, with a staggering load of 19200 # (i.e. 5' speed). Since the heavy wagon has a max weight capacity of 4000 #, at worse it will go 20', Fly 40' [clumsy] with a full load.

So, with rules support, a flying heavy wagon costs 11,100 gp.

A floating wagon will be less, or will not get made.

A Chair is listed as small, 2 HD, 1 CP, so price is Chair + 3,000 gp.
Four chairs is Chair*4 + 12,000 gp. Wagon is cheaper, but the chairs can move independently with 30' Fly 30' [clumsy]. It also has a wimpy carrying capacity.

/cevah

PS: Other useful stuff for caravans...:
Wagon statistics