Retraining CFEs [FAQ]

[FLite]

In a recent thread on eidolons and boons

John Compton wrote:

The Curing Caveat: Not so much an approach as it is a concern, it's unclear how a CFE might remove a negative condition—including one that can only be removed by expending Prestige Points. A PC cannot spend PP to clear another person's conditions, but can she spend PP to assist her class feature or anything else that's a part of her character sheet?

...

As for the Curing Caveat, the Pathfinder Society team feels comfortable ruling that although a PC cannot spend Prestige Points to assist another PC, he can spend his Prestige Points to benefit any of his gear, CFEs, or other elements that appear on his character sheet. Need to cure your eidolon's feeblemind? Sure, spend the PP to have someone cast heal? Want to recover the corpse of your beloved warhorse? Sure, spend PP for body recovery. Long to resurrect that loyal guard dog you bought at 1st level and recently took a disintegrate spell to the face? I salute your expenditure of 32 PP. Need to repair your broken sword? Go for it; I can't imagine any other reason that make whole appears on the list of prestige awards.

We'll just need to make sure that this gets into the next version of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, and that might as simple as saying "A PC can spend Prestige Points in order to purchase spellcasting services for himself, his gear (including purchased creatures), and any creatures granted by class abilities."

Does this "he can spend his Prestige Points to benefit any of his gear, CFEs, or other elements that appear on his character sheet." apply to retraining rules Ultimate Campaign? Can CFEs retrain?

Several times this question has come up on the boards, the general consensus is usually no, with some disagreeing. The basis for the people who say no is that "you cannot spend PP on your CFE."

Positives: Several times I have had new players come to me and say (variations on) "I took Armor proficiency on my AC, and I just found out that I don't need it if the barding their wearing has a 0 ACP. Did I just waste a feat? Can I get it back?" So far, I have just been telling them "Well, wait till something kills your AC, or dismiss them and get a new one and you have to retrain it's tricks but yes, in the mean time, you wasted a feat."

So far, Summoners and Spiritualists are rare enough out here, and played mostly by some of the more rules crunchy players, but it would really suck if someone took a feat on their Eidolon and then found out it didn't work and was a wasted feat and now they can't get rid of it.

Negatives: Currently familiars can only replace their starting feat with a very specific list of familiar specific feats. Opening it up to all the feats could possibly lead to some very broken builds.

[Paz]

CFE?

[FLite]

"Class Feature Entities". Animal Companion, Mount, Eidolon, Familiars, etc.

Sorry, I accidentally cut the definition from his post.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Retraining feats to take feats to you could not have accessed when you gained the feat, can increase the power of a build or animal companion. But considering the PP cost of retraining, I am not that worried.

I am certainly in Favor of introducing an option for CFE to retrain (mainly eidolons and animal companions).

[Ascalaphus]

A "good faith" case would be retraining an animal companion out of Weapon Finesse after it becomes Large and its Strength exceeds its Dexterity.

[Andrew Christian]

It's called retraining a class feature.

[Farrindor]

Retraining lists the specific class features you can retrain - I do not believe that AC's or familiars are on that list.

[Hmm]

I would love if Class Feature Entity (CFE) retraining was allowed.

Andrew Christian can testify how much my sorceress dotes on Pumpkin, her teamwork tiger. Although there exists a PFS legal way to dismiss or retire your companion to get one with better feat choices, emotionally, Zahra would never willingly give up her buddy, even if she discovered an awesome feat chain that would have been perfect had she only known about it 2 levels ago.

Retraining would cost more mechanically (via PP) than dismissal would, but it would also allow PCs to keep working with the original friends that they bonded with. To me, the animal companion is not an infinitely replaceable meat shield, but a member of my character's family. You don't replace your beloved friends.

For eidolons (and possibly phantoms?) this option would be even more important.

Put me down in favor of this proposition!
Hmm

[Flutter]

So clinical. They should just be called friends.

[Hmm]

Did my favorite horsey druid just get her fourth star?

Congratulations, Flutter (and BNW!)

Hmm

[Flutter]

Hmm wrote:

Did my favorite horsey druid just get her fourth star?

Eyup

[Sees-Far-Ahead]

Flutter wrote:

So clinical. They should just be called friends.

So emotional. The term is "livestock."

You should never give a name to something you might eat later.

[MisterSlanky]

Sees-Far-Ahead wrote:

Flutter wrote:

So clinical. They should just be called friends.

So emotional. The term is "livestock."

You should never give a name to something you might eat later.

No, no, no.

The term is "fodder".

[Shifty]

Flutter wrote:

So clinical. They should just be called friends.

And friendship is magic! :)

[Da Brain]

MisterSlanky wrote:

Sees-Far-Ahead wrote:

Flutter wrote:

So clinical. They should just be called friends.

So emotional. The term is "livestock."

You should never give a name to something you might eat later.

No, no, no.

The term is "fodder".

"Luke, I am your fodder..."

[kinevon]

Da Brain wrote:

MisterSlanky wrote:

Sees-Far-Ahead wrote:

Flutter wrote:

So clinical. They should just be called friends.

So emotional. The term is "livestock."

You should never give a name to something you might eat later.

No, no, no.

The term is "fodder".

"Luke, I am your fodder..."

"Hello Mudder.

Hello Fodder.
Here I am at
Camp Grenader."

[John Compton]

FLite wrote:

Positives: Several times I have had new players come to me and say (variations on) "I took Armor proficiency on my AC, and I just found out that I don't need it if the barding their wearing has a 0 ACP. Did I just waste a feat? Can I get it back?" So far, I have just been telling them "Well, wait till something kills your AC, or dismiss them and get a new one and you have to retrain it's tricks but yes, in the mean time, you wasted a feat."

So far, Summoners and Spiritualists are rare enough out here, and played mostly by some of the more rules crunchy players, but it would really suck if someone took a feat on their Eidolon and then found out it didn't work and was a wasted feat and now they can't get rid of it.

Negatives: Currently familiars can only replace their starting feat with a very specific list of familiar specific feats. Opening it up to all the feats could possibly lead to some very broken builds.

I see where that would be an issue with eidolons and phantoms in particular. I can also see how this could be problematic for familiars.

Tentative Solution: A PC can use Prestige Points for retraining a creature granted by her class feature at the same cost as if she were the one retraining. A PC can only retrain options that she was able to choose in the first place. For example, retraining an eidolon's feat or ability score bonus is permissible because the summoner can choose the eidolon's feats, whereas retraining a familiar's feat is not permissible because the wizard was never able to choose its feat in the first place.

Seem about right?

[BigNorseWolf]

Familiars do have a few options for feat and other choices: The familiar folio feats and familiar archetypes. (archetypes are so expensive though that catch and release is a far more likely option unless you have a chronicle sheet granted familiar that's hard to replace)

[FLite]

John Compton wrote:

FLite wrote:

Positives: Several times I have had new players come to me and say (variations on) "I took Armor proficiency on my AC, and I just found out that I don't need it if the barding their wearing has a 0 ACP. Did I just waste a feat? Can I get it back?" So far, I have just been telling them "Well, wait till something kills your AC, or dismiss them and get a new one and you have to retrain it's tricks but yes, in the mean time, you wasted a feat."

So far, Summoners and Spiritualists are rare enough out here, and played mostly by some of the more rules crunchy players, but it would really suck if someone took a feat on their Eidolon and then found out it didn't work and was a wasted feat and now they can't get rid of it.

Negatives: Currently familiars can only replace their starting feat with a very specific list of familiar specific feats. Opening it up to all the feats could possibly lead to some very broken builds.

I see where that would be an issue with eidolons and phantoms in particular. I can also see how this could be problematic for familiars.

Tentative Solution: A PC can use Prestige Points for retraining a creature granted by her class feature at the same cost as if she were the one retraining. A PC can only retrain options that she was able to choose in the first place. For example, retraining an eidolon's feat or ability score bonus is permissible because the summoner can choose the eidolon's feats, whereas retraining a familiar's feat is not permissible because the wizard was never able to choose its feat in the first place.

Seem about right?

Thanks John. I like that solution.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Is there any chance we can get this expanded slightly to things retraining doesn't have a cost for. Specifically:

Shaman choosing a different form of animal familiar.

Retraining Attribute bonuses for Animal Companions.

Retraining Familiar/AC archetypes.

Retraining tricks (maybe you can already do this with Handle Animal?)

[FLite]

Under the rules John proposed, retraining bonus attributes should be covered. You would terrain them as if you were retraining your own, which is,IIRC, covered by the retraining rules.