Communicating with Intelligent Summoned Monsters


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1/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'd like to settle out 'what is reasonable' in communicating with a intelligent summoned monsters. I did search the forums, but didn't see anything that went into detail (apologies if I missed a big thread on this).

RAW of Summoned Monster states: "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

The key word there is 'communicate', which infers a myriad of possibilities, just so long as you can convey the command successfully to the summoned monster.

So - this is what I think. These are the three possible ways I see of 'communicating' with an intelligent summoned monster.

1.) The big obvious method - you speak their language. You tell it do to what you want it to and then it does it - easy.

2.) If you do not speak their language, things get tougher. Being an intelligent creature, I do not see any reason why a player could not communicate with them through gesticulation and pantomime. I feel such communication could be accomplished through a DC check using Diplomacy or Bluff, and that the DC should be the same as 'Push' for Handle Animal (DC 25).

3.) If another member of the party speaks the language of the summoned monster, I do not see any reason why communication could not occur through a translator; certainly, conversing through a translator is a form of communication, and communication is the key word in RAW. However, I think it is fair for a GM to require one DC check using Diplomacy or Bluff (as 2., above) in order to get the monster to understand that you are using a translator (otherwise, it might not obey the commands given from a third party!).

Is this reasonable under PFS rules? Thoughts appreciated!

4/5 *

I think the only one of this that would work is your #1 - you speak their language. Gesticulating might work for very simple stuff, but not for anything more complicated than, "go get that guy!" Bluff only works if you speak their language as well, ditto diplomacy.

Translation by a third party would definitely not work - they do not follow the orders of anyone else under any normal conditions. Imagine the problems if anyone could just tell summoned creatures what to do? And if they don't speak your language, they couldn't get confirmation from you that what the translator told them is really what you said.

No, you need to be able to speak with them, either using a language or telepathy or some similar skill, to be able to order them around. Otherwise, they attack your foes.

1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
I think the only one of this that would work is your #1 - you speak their language.

Limiting what is 'communicating' to only language is seriously restrictive. There are other means to 'communicate' besides the spoken word. Realize that it is even more limiting than in the case it is a summoned monster with animal intelligence. A single rank in Handle Animal makes it possible to communicate with any animal.

All things being equal, it should not be easier to communicate with an animal than with an intelligent being.

If it is legal to use Handle Animal to convey an order to an animal, then why is it not appropriate to use a more intelligent skill - such as Diplomacy or Bluff - to convey an order to an intelligent one?

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Bluff only works if you speak their language...

Not in all of its uses, or you would not be able to feint on most creatures.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Use the "pass hidden messages" option for bluff is how I'd rule it. Unfortunately that option requires the same language.

In this case, the spell compels the summoned creature to attack the nearest enemy. So, if you can't communicate with a free action what you want it to do, other than that, you are out of luck.

The passing hidden messages takes twice as long as normal communication. I'd rule this cou k do not be done in combat unless it was a very simple and/or short command.

I'd allow some simple gestures. But nothing super complex. And unless you can find a way to communicate for the creature to not attack right away, then translation won't work either unless a party member wants to ready an action to do so. Good luck with that.

1/5

Andrew Christian wrote:


...then translation won't work either unless a party member wants to ready an action to do so.

What if the translation is to occur through a familiar who has truespeech? The familiar is linked to the player through a class feature, is connected therefore by magic, and could easily be instructed something along the lines of 'When this thing gets summoned, immediately let it know that you are my translator and then give it this order.'

Typically speaking is a free action - so, I feel this could all happen in the same turn with no delays. You bark orders to your familiar who then barks orders to the summoned creature.

The one hitch is that 'how does the summoned creature know the familiar speaks for the player?' One option is to say that the familiar is an extension of the player, since it is a class feature, and so can give orders freely. Another option is that the familiar or player must make some sort of bluff roll to get the creature to understand that it is speaking for the player. And of course another option is to say 'no you cannot do that'.

Dark Archive 1/5

How about you carry a wand of Comprehend Languages to cast on them, or a wand of Tongues to throw it on yourself? Do it at the beginning of a dungeon when you go in and you have fifty (50) minutes to talk to whatever intelligent beastie you summon. That is good for a few encounters in most cases.

Dark Archive 5/5

what about a "Translator" Boon?

I have one, though I don't think it is going to apply for me (Unless there is a spell something like summon Varissian Noble).

Dark Archive 5/5

Fendel, CSI: Absalom wrote:
How about you carry a wand of Comprehend Languages to cast on them, or a wand of Tongues to throw it on yourself? Do it at the beginning of a dungeon when you go in and you have fifty (50) minutes to talk to whatever intelligent beastie you summon. That is good for a few encounters in most cases.

Comp. Languages is a personal only spell, so you couldn't cast it on another creature. Maybe a Potion? then you might be able to get them to drink it in the round they appear - but how would you tell them to do that? Maybe an Oil? Then when the creature appears you could oil them up first thing... Nope! darn it - personal only spell again, so not available in Potions!

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

Tongues, Share Language and Perform: Act skill (which includes pantomime and can be done untrained) all seem like reasonable ways to communicate. Since they are more intelligent than an animal, I would consider allowing Handle Animal as a way to signal certain things as well.

To my knowledge, it isn't covered well in the rules. Does the recent summoner's splat book have anything on this?

I don't think Bluff is appropriate, but try to be flexible as a GM and might be persuaded to let it go in spite of that.

How exactly do you Bluff a small fire elemental to burn the drapes, or small water elemental to put out said fire?


Is it that hard to learn their languages? One skill point buys you a language + the bonus languages for higher Int. Considering that you can choose the creatures you call it doesnt seem an unreasonable expectation to learn the lingo?

Dark Archive 5/5

The Sword wrote:
Is it that hard to learn their languages? One skill point buys you a language + the bonus languages for higher Int. Considering that you can choose the creatures you call it doesnt seem an unreasonable expectation to learn the lingo?

Depends - I've seen a Sorcerer with an INT of 8, who seemed to specialize in summon spells (but that was back before Summoners come into being).

1/5

The Sword wrote:
Is it that hard to learn their languages? One skill point buys you a language + the bonus languages for higher Int. Considering that you can choose the creatures you call it doesnt seem an unreasonable expectation to learn the lingo?

10 int Oracle here - spending 1 of my 4 skill points on linguistics every level in a struggle to learn all of the languages needed to communicate with the various summoned monsters is actually a bit much.

BretI wrote:

Since they are more intelligent than an animal, I would consider allowing Handle Animal as a way to signal certain things as well.

That's a bit like my thinking as well - intelligent beings should have a similar roll available. I was thinking Bluff as it can be used to convey messages, and this is a type of message passing. Though using Profession (Acting) is actually pretty funny and if I was GM I'd be tempted to say 'okay' to that as well. I do feel that, since 'animal' creatures can be controlled through handle animal, that 'intelligent' creatures should be able to be instructed through very similar means, whether a bluff roll or something else.

Still very curious on the communities feelings about a familiar with Truespeech giving the commands though - that one has some mechanical feasibility and logically it makes sense.

5/5 *****

If you are going to summon then you are best off learning some languages. Mostly this means picking up the elemental languages.

Many outsider summons will be able to speak to you, even if you could not speak to them. For example, Lantern and Hound Archons have truespeech, in effect a constant tongues. Mephits speak Common. Babau are telepathic. Bearded Devils are telepathic and speak Common. Salamanders speak Common as do Erinyes. Invisible Stalkers speak Auran and Common.

Essentially the only issue is with the pure elementals. Invest 4 ranks in Linguistics and you can communicate with any of them. I recommend picking up Terran then Auran as Earth and Air elementals are the most useful at low - mid levels.

5/5 *****

Tabletop Giant wrote:
Still very curious on the communities feelings about a familiar with Truespeech giving the commands though - that one has some mechanical feasibility and logically it makes sense.

I wouldn't allow it. Truespeech is a constant Tongues effect. The familiar doesn't actually understand the creatures language, it simply always knows what things it is talking to are saying and is always understood.

I would allow a third party who knew a specific language to explain to the summoner what they needed to say to give particular instructions but it is going to take more than a free action for the summoner to tell their translator what they want to say, the transloator to tell the summoner how to turn it into the creatures language and for the summoner then to give the command.

1/5

andreww wrote:
If you are going to summon then you are best off learning some languages.

I do understand that and obviously it is the best means of communication. To be clear - the point of my original question is to define means of communication other than the caster knowing the language of the summoned creature.

andreww wrote:

I wouldn't allow it. Truespeech is a constant Tongues effect. The familiar doesn't actually understand the creatures language, it simply always knows what things it is talking to are saying and is always understood.

That doesn't really make sense. Summon Monster states that you must be able to 'communicate' with the creature - so, the question to ask is, can a familiar with Truespeech communicate with an intelligent creature? The answer is obviously 'yes'.

Given that a familiar with Truespeech *can* communicate with a summoned monster, is there any reason that it cannot act as an interpreter? Keep in mind that the familiar is magically bonded with the spell's caster through a class feature.

5/5 *****

Tabletop Giant wrote:
That doesn't really make sense. Summon Monster states that you must be able to 'communicate' with the creature - so, the question to ask is, can a familiar with Truespeech communicate with an intelligent creature? The answer is obviously 'yes'.

Truspeech would allow a familiar to communicate but the familiar is not the summoner. Familiar are separate creatures, they act under their masters instructions but they are not the summoner. Summoned creatures obey the orders of the creature which summoned them.


There is actually a trait that exists for this sole purpose, which you can find in the Monster Summoner's Handbook. It's PFS legal, too. And here it is.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Probably depends a lot on the summoned critter. If you tell a hound archon to fight a demon, the guy that summoned you wanted you to it will probably leap into combat. If you tell it to attack the angel because the summoner commanded it, he'll probably point out the part in his contract about only having to obey the summoner, sorry.

5/5 *****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Probably depends a lot on the summoned critter. If you tell a hound archon to fight a demon, the guy that summoned you wanted you to it will probably leap into combat. If you tell it to attack the angel because the summoner commanded it, he'll probably point out the part in his contract about only having to obey the summoner, sorry.

Bad example, Hound Archons have truespeech so understand anything their summoner tells them.

1/5

andreww wrote:
Summoned creatures obey the orders of the creature which summoned them.

What you are implying is not what the spell states. The text of the spell is:

Summon Monster wrote:
If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

The key part is bolded. The caster must communicate the order to the creature to give an order - that is all that is required.

Question: is conversing through an interpreter a form of communication?

mourge40k wrote:
There is actually a trait that exists for this sole purpose, which you can find in the Monster Summoner's Handbook. It's PFS legal, too. And here it is.

That is awesome and a good find. I think that may work to counterbalance the ease of commanding animal intelligence creatures. The DC of a simple secret message is 15, so this pushes it to 20 with the -5 penalty.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Tabletop Giant wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:


...then translation won't work either unless a party member wants to ready an action to do so.

What if the translation is to occur through a familiar who has truespeech? The familiar is linked to the player through a class feature, is connected therefore by magic, and could easily be instructed something along the lines of 'When this thing gets summoned, immediately let it know that you are my translator and then give it this order.'

Typically speaking is a free action - so, I feel this could all happen in the same turn with no delays. You bark orders to your familiar who then barks orders to the summoned creature.

The one hitch is that 'how does the summoned creature know the familiar speaks for the player?' One option is to say that the familiar is an extension of the player, since it is a class feature, and so can give orders freely. Another option is that the familiar or player must make some sort of bluff roll to get the creature to understand that it is speaking for the player. And of course another option is to say 'no you cannot do that'.

I disagree with it all being able to happen via free actions. The familiar could easily ready to do this.

While speaking can be a free action, and you can do a few free actions off turn (including speaking), I feel that convincing the summoned creature of the validity of the translator, and relaying instructions is more than a free action is meant to handle, especially off turn.

Grand Lodge 2/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To complicate matters (sorry), the wording "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions" is a direct carry forward from the spell's (non-Pathfinder) source. And in that particular game all celestial/fiendish creatures spoke either celestial or fiendish, so you just had to learn the language.

1/5

Andrew Christian wrote:


I disagree with it all being able to happen via free actions. The familiar could easily ready to do this.

While speaking can be a free action, and you can do a few free actions off turn (including speaking), I feel that convincing the summoned creature of the validity of the translator, and relaying instructions is more than a free action is meant to handle, especially off turn.

I think spending an action (i.e., not a 'free action') is fair - what do you think would be the mechanic necessary to demonstrate to the summoned creature that the familiar is translating the summoner's orders? For the sake of discussion, let's say it is 'during combat' and neither the caster nor the familiar has a problem delaying or readying for each other's turns, as necessary.

I have to think that the fact that the familiar is arguably a magical extension of the player, since it exists through a class feature. If the summoned creature would recognize that bond, then might that help?

Darrell Impey UK wrote:
To complicate matters (sorry), the wording "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions" is a direct carry forward from the spell's (non-Pathfinder) source. And in that particular game all celestial/fiendish creatures spoke either celestial or fiendish, so you just had to learn the language.

I think this is really the core of the problem; the text just needs clarity as it refers to an older mechanic. I don't know if it warrants the 'FAQ' button (maybe?), but I think there is real worth in mechanically defining what 'communicating' means, in this context.

4/5 *

Tabletop Giant: I was already assuming we were discussing using Bluff to pass a secret message, and not feint - sorry I confused you.

Any use of the skills you mentioned require sharing a language to use in the way you want to use them, and they don't take a negligible amount of time. Even the feat that mourge40K found doesn't reduce the time required to use the skill.

Here's the thing - you're summoning a creature, and the spell already tells them to attack your foes. If you want to alter that on the fly, and make them work against their programming, so to speak, it will take some time to do if you don't speak their language. Diplomacy takes 1 minute, for example, to explain things and get the other person to consider your words enough to change their intentions. Passing secret messages takes "twice as long", but that's using innuendo and double meanings in a shared language, not just pantomime.

From a game balance point of view, I'm not sure that summoning needs to be made even *more* versatile by allowing free communication outside of the rules.

On the other hand, one could ask how the summoned creature knows who your foes are, if you and it can't communicate somehow? There is rationale there for a change to the rules to accomplish what you want... but that's a design change, not a PFS clarification. PFS doesn't change rules unless the rules affect the OP environment, so I think this is best directed to the developers, not PFS.

1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Tabletop Giant: I was already assuming we were discussing using Bluff to pass a secret message, and not feint - sorry I confused you.

No problem - I was just struggling to find an existing mechanic which could arguably be uses as a 'mirror' to the ability to use Handle Animal to control animal intelligence summoned creatures.

However, that notion is contradicted by the trait that mourge40k listed - if there is a trait that allows nonverbal communication (albeit at a -5 penalty) with creatures with which you do not share a language, then that rather strongly infers that you may not achieve such communication without it. So, my initial suggestion of using bluff/diplomacy is therefore not going to work for that (and likely other) reasons.

I'm currently just looking into the familiar case as, with my particular situation, my Oracle does have an angelic familiar (went eldritch heritage/arcane bloodline route and so eventually got an improved familiar). This familiar speaks Truespeech, and so I believe it should work as an interpreter with summoned critters.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Tabletop Giant wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:


I disagree with it all being able to happen via free actions. The familiar could easily ready to do this.

While speaking can be a free action, and you can do a few free actions off turn (including speaking), I feel that convincing the summoned creature of the validity of the translator, and relaying instructions is more than a free action is meant to handle, especially off turn.

I think spending an action (i.e., not a 'free action') is fair - what do you think would be the mechanic necessary to demonstrate to the summoned creature that the familiar is translating the summoner's orders? For the sake of discussion, let's say it is 'during combat' and neither the caster nor the familiar has a problem delaying or readying for each other's turns, as necessary.

I have to think that the fact that the familiar is arguably a magical extension of the player, since it exists through a class feature. If the summoned creature would recognize that bond, then might that help?

Darrell Impey UK wrote:
To complicate matters (sorry), the wording "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions" is a direct carry forward from the spell's (non-Pathfinder) source. And in that particular game all celestial/fiendish creatures spoke either celestial or fiendish, so you just had to learn the language.
I think this is really the core of the problem; the text just needs clarity as it refers to an older mechanic. I don't know if it warrants the 'FAQ' button (maybe?), but I think there is real worth in mechanically defining what 'communicating' means, in this context.

There are literally no rules (except for the feat listed above) for doing this. So first, you should expect table variation.

As such, the magical relationship between Familiar and Spellcaster does not include any language that indicates that anyone else would automatically be able to tell that they had such a relationship. Any creature trying to figure it out, would likely need to make an Knowledge (arcana) check, and most summoned creatures that I know of, don't have that skill.

That being said, there is some precedence for a familiar being able to interact with the spells a spell-caster casts. Such as being able to deliver touch spells for the caster and the caster being able to cast personal spells upon the familiar. So there is definitely a magical link.

However, with the feat above, there isn't going to be a simple set of mechanics to communicate anything to a summoned creature without the language, unless you have that feat.

That being said, as a GM, I would be more than willing to have the spellcaster use Handle Animal to push summoned animal creatures to listen to your familiar. For non-animal creatures, like elementals or outsiders, that you do not have a common language with, they are likely sentient. As such, you should be able to summon them so they are facing you. Put up your hand vehemently in the universal, "STOP!" gesture. Have the creature make a sense motive check. Should be a fairly simple one. Then point at your familiar and start speaking. Then stop, let familiar translate. Continue.

The key take-away, I think, is that there should be some cost for doing this. Whether that is a wizard putting ranks into handle animal, taking the expanded pantomime feat, or having your familiar use its actions to translate, whatever... there should be a cost for doing something that the rules don't indicate is possible to do.

1/5

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Andrew Christian wrote:
The key take-away, I think, is that there should be some cost for doing this. Whether that is a wizard putting ranks into handle animal, taking the expanded pantomime feat, or having your familiar use its actions to translate, whatever... there should be a cost for doing something that the rules don't indicate is possible to do.

I concur. I would hope a GM would allow me to burn my familiar's standard action (I would also accept a full round action, honestly) to establish that it is my interpreter - but I know that nothing in the rules define this, so we're left with table variation.

I'm going to tap the FAQ button in vague hopes this could be expanded upon sometime in the future. 'Communicates' needs a bit of clarity, especially in terms of using an interpreter.

Earnest thanks to everyone who has chimed in! It does help to have a group to think these things through.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Tabletop Giant wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
The key take-away, I think, is that there should be some cost for doing this. Whether that is a wizard putting ranks into handle animal, taking the expanded pantomime feat, or having your familiar use its actions to translate, whatever... there should be a cost for doing something that the rules don't indicate is possible to do.

I concur. I would hope a GM would allow me to burn my familiar's standard action (I would also accept a full round action, honestly) to establish that it is my interpreter - but I know that nothing in the rules define this, so we're left with table variation.

I'm going to tap the FAQ button in vague hopes this could be expanded upon sometime in the future. 'Communicates' needs a bit of clarity, especially in terms of using an interpreter.

Earnest thanks to everyone who has chimed in! It does help to have a group to think these things through.

One thing to keep in mind, is that the rules set is designed for interpretation. And in general, its been that way since Gary Gygax originally published the game. As such, one home group will likely totally run these ambiguous things differently than another. As long as the GM and player(s) agree, and things stay consistent (unless the initial agreement revealed some flaw), then everything is working as intended as far as game design is concerned.

Where things break down, however, is when you try to apply a rules set like this, to an organized play campaign, where RAW is the rule. So you get ambiguities like "communicate" that a bit of compromise, common sense, and application of existing rules precedent will easily handle, but in PFS cause table variation, and thus causes issues with certain character builds.

But I certainly will support your attempt to get a clarification on "communicate" but its likely that you will only get that in the rules forum, and not in the PFS forum.

1/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:
But I certainly will support your attempt to get a clarification on "communicate" but its likely that you will only get that in the rules forum, and not in the PFS forum.

Thank you for that!

I did have an idea while making dinner - an idea how to handle the mechanic of getting an intelligent summoned monster to understand that my familiar will interpret for me.

I can buy a 'Masterwork Tool' - a generic tool for 50 gold. This tool will be a finely worked book with many pages, and each page has the same message 'My familiar will translate my instructions for me' (or, something else, ideally funnier). These instructions will be in BIG BOLD LETTERS that take up the whole page. Every page will be a different language - and perhaps I should actually list those out when I buy the item so that they are defined. Nearly all languages have a written form and so this should work.

I would suggest that it will take me a move action to get the summoned monster's attention when it appears, as well as to hold the book out to it so that it can read it - I'll just hold the book out with the appropriate page showing. I would also suggest that I should be adjacent to the creature to do this.

This allows me to communicate to the creature that my familiar is our interpreter using existing mechanics of the game. I'll be out 50 gp as well as taking a move action to show the page to the summoned creature. It doesn't require me to know the language - I just need to know which page to flip to.

I do know of course - 'expect table variation' - but I think I might be onto something reasonable here.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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I'd probably allow that. I'd actually chuckle and find it fun that you went to such great length to do something that ultimately is going to net you little return for the most part.

1/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:
I'd probably allow that. I'd actually chuckle and find it fun that you went to such great length to do something that ultimately is going to net you little return for the most part.

Two things about me - I like being innovative in a silly way. Also, I'm stubborn as hell once I get an idea in my head. :)

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Tabletop Giant wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
I'd probably allow that. I'd actually chuckle and find it fun that you went to such great length to do something that ultimately is going to net you little return for the most part.
Two things about me - I like being innovative in a silly way. Also, I'm stubborn as hell once I get an idea in my head. :)

You could do it as a banner "Welcome to the prime material plane. Please do as the familiar on my shoulder instructs. tea will be served if you last longer than my enemies and we hope you enjoyed your stay"

Well worth the two unseen servants it would take to carry it...

*

Da Goblin wrote:
The Sword wrote:
Is it that hard to learn their languages? One skill point buys you a language + the bonus languages for higher Int. Considering that you can choose the creatures you call it doesnt seem an unreasonable expectation to learn the lingo?
Depends - I've seen a Sorcerer with an INT of 8, who seemed to specialize in summon spells (but that was back before Summoners come into being).

As summon monster is a rounds per level spell, just what is it you are hoping to accomplish in the 'other tasks' category. Celestial or abyssal will cover 60-70% & that's a choice you only have to make once. If the task you have in mind isn't covered find the critter that can best accomplish it & learn it's language. 1 or 2 skill points are hardly anything compared to Diplomacy, Bluff, Perform or the feats you've put into your familiar.

EDIT: I like the masterwork book idea :)

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

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The PFS legal way to do it:

School Familiar Conjuration
Greater School Power—Summoned Shell (Sp)

Whenever the familiar's master casts a summon monster spell, if the familiar is within the spell's range, it can choose to inhabit the body of one creature summoned by the spell. While inhabiting the body, the familiar maintains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores and its familiar powers, but otherwise gains the statistics and abilities of the summoned creature.

When the spell ends, or the summoned creature's hit points are reduced to 0, the familiar is expelled without suffering any negative effects.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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For elementals - just learn Terran. Earth Elementals are by far the most versatile elementals, due to Tremorsense and Earth Glide. The other languages are a much lower priority, though eventually nice to have.

As for most other outsiders, the low-level ones are good for little other than fighting, and the higher-level ones speak a lot of languages themselves.

I think you're really overestimating the amount of languages required in practice. Handle Animal could be worth it though, but the trick-less critters will have significant DCs. Speak With Animal can be useful there, or the Feral Speech wizard discovery.

For clerics, there's the Herald Caller archetype:

Quote:

Divine Heralds (Su): A herald caller can use summon monster spells only to summon creatures particularly appropriate to her deity. This includes all creatures listed as summon monster options for priests of her deity (see Expanded Summoning for Priests on page 30), creatures whose alignment matches at least one aspect of her deity’s alignment, and creatures of an elemental subtype that matches a domain granted by the deity (if any). When summoning a creature that is normally summoned with the celestial or fiendish template, a herald caller of a chaotic deity can instead summon it with the entropic template, and a herald caller of a lawful deity can instead summon it with the resolute template (see pages 292–293 of Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 for more information on these simple templates).

Because of these summoned monsters’ strong ties to the herald caller’s deity, the herald caller also gains specific benefits with creatures she summons with summon monster spells gained from her cleric spell list. The herald caller and her summoned monsters can understand each other’s spoken words as if they shared a common language (though this doesn’t give summoned monsters the ability to speak if they normally lack it). Whenever the herald caller uses channel energy to heal, she can include all of her summoned monsters, even if they are out of her normal channel energy radius or of a creature type that would not normally be affected. If she channels energy to deal damage, she can exclude any of her summoned monsters that would normally be affected.

The Exchange 5/5

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I keep getting the image of someone communicating with intelligent creatures summoned by someone else...

PC #1 to newly summoned earth elemental: "so, Rocky, we meet again?!"
Rocky: "Ha! You again?! What is dis, like 2 times this week?" Takes swing, misses...
PC #1: "Yeah, been busy lately." Uses wand to cast Prot. Evil, "And how's your lady? and the little one... Chip isn't it?"
Rocky: "You still got dat wand t'ing? T'aught iddud be use't up by now... Chip's doing ok, starting up his own Rock Band!" moves on to attack another PC.
PC #1: "Hay! that's great! always good to have an artist in the family." glances down at wand in hand, and following Rocky to the next PC to tap him with the wand, "Well, it does come with 50 charges - and I don't get much use out of it any more, what with moving on to Year of the Serpent and not so much World Wound stuff..."
PC #2: "Dang it! Would you stop chatting up everything we meet?! That's the problem with having a Bard in the group... changing every good fight into a 'diplomacy encounter'... "
Rocky: "sheesh, w'at's wid dis guy? 'E's way to serious!"

Yeah, I can totally see this encounter.

Or one where the Andoran PC keeps asking the summoned monsters if the are "compelled" to attack... and then swings harder to kill "the evil slaver spell-caster"!

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

Curaigh wrote:
As summon monster is a rounds per level spell, just what is it you are hoping to accomplish in the 'other tasks' category.

Water elementals a have a Drench extraordinary ability to put out fires. In one scenario an NPC tried to burn evidence while blocking the door -- they were not happy when I summoned the elemental behind them right next to the brazier.

Earth elementals have Earth Glide. They can quick check out what is on the other side of that wall.

I have asked an Air Elemental to go into poison gas (elementals are immune to poison) and clear it out. Not exactly covered by the rules, but very fitting for something that can turn into a whirlwind so the GM allowed it.

Flanking and Aid Another are combat options that are something other than attack.

A creative player will find all sorts of uses for summoned creatures.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

I too was frustrated when I learned that my sorceress would have to learn three elemental languages -- terran, auran, and aquan -- to be able to use elementals out of combat. But you know what? I got a ton of use out of those languages. And I did make friendships with my regularly summoned elementals. Iggie -- my earth elemental -- and I had conversations like what Nosig described all the time.

I actually think that the linguistics points were an excellent investment, even on a 2+int mod class. On an oracle summoning speciaist, it should be much easier to afford.

Hmm


BretI wrote:


A creative player will find all sorts of uses for summoned creatures.

And when you get into upper level monster summonings, an erinyes has true seeing. They can be very useful... except when the GM plays them up with attitude, then you have to be kind of strict with your instructions. Of course, they're also very easy to communicate with.


Alternatively you could convimce your GM to let you learn the phrase "my familiar will translate for me, do as it says" in the elemental languages, fiendish and celestial.

If typical school kid can count to ten in five or six languages you should be able to get that sentence down pretty good. Who cares about your accent - provided you're comprehendible.

If you didn't have a familiar I would allow you to have a phrase book of simple phrases you could read out. If I can order dinner in Spanish your character could definitely ask the elemental not to attack the goblins with blue hats.

*

Ascalaphus wrote:
For elementals - just learn Terran. Earth Elementals are by far the most versatile elementals, due to Tremorsense and Earth Glide. The other languages are a much lower priority, though eventually nice to have.

Hah! I would have said Auran, as the flight ability is huge for low level parties. That and swarms of tiny & diminuitive creatures do not fair well in whirlwind & whirlwind doesn't care about invisible either. TETO :)

I agree what's-beyond-that-door can be useful, but summoning is not as convenient as other ways. Personally, I do not think three or four rounds of scouting will be that useful, at least not as useful as three rounds of slam attacks, especially when the earth elemental doesn't know the difference between red scales & black scales.

But I do applaud creative uses of spells, as BretI showed. :)

The Exchange 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Curaigh wrote:

....

I agree what's-beyond-that-door can be useful, but summoning is not as convenient as other ways....

But I do applaud creative uses of spells, as BretI showed. :)

My wife tends to use invisibility on the door for this.... Along with the comment "now be sure to look surprised..."

5/5 5/55/55/5

nosig wrote:
Curaigh wrote:

....

I agree what's-beyond-that-door can be useful, but summoning is not as convenient as other ways....

But I do applaud creative uses of spells, as BretI showed. :)

My wife tends to use invisibility on the door for this.... Along with the comment "now be sure to look surprised..."

Whats the sens motive of your average kobold?

+2

Whats the sens motive of our fighter?

-4.

..Hey, Meat Shield, we're not casting invisibility on the door this time, we're really making it disappear. Charge the door.

The Exchange 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
nosig wrote:
Curaigh wrote:

....

I agree what's-beyond-that-door can be useful, but summoning is not as convenient as other ways....

But I do applaud creative uses of spells, as BretI showed. :)

My wife tends to use invisibility on the door for this.... Along with the comment "now be sure to look surprised..."

Whats the sens motive of your average kobold?

+2

Whats the sens motive of our fighter?

-4.

..Hey, Meat Shield, we're not casting invisibility on the door this time, we're really making it disappear. Charge the door.

"That's gonna leave a mark..."

Just hope it isn't the party's blaster wizard rolling the low sense motive..."fireball coming online!"

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Curaigh wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
For elementals - just learn Terran. Earth Elementals are by far the most versatile elementals, due to Tremorsense and Earth Glide. The other languages are a much lower priority, though eventually nice to have.

Hah! I would have said Auran, as the flight ability is huge for low level parties. That and swarms of tiny & diminuitive creatures do not fair well in whirlwind & whirlwind doesn't care about invisible either. TETO :)

I agree what's-beyond-that-door can be useful, but summoning is not as convenient as other ways. Personally, I do not think three or four rounds of scouting will be that useful, at least not as useful as three rounds of slam attacks, especially when the earth elemental doesn't know the difference between red scales & black scales.

But I do applaud creative uses of spells, as BretI showed. :)

It's also handy for getting them into flanking position or past a fighter screen to harass enemy casters.

1/5

The Sword wrote:

Alternatively you could convimce your GM to let you learn the phrase "my familiar will translate for me, do as it says" in the elemental languages, fiendish and celestial.

If typical school kid can count to ten in five or six languages you should be able to get that sentence down pretty good. Who cares about your accent - provided you're comprehendible.

If you didn't have a familiar I would allow you to have a phrase book of simple phrases you could read out. If I can order dinner in Spanish your character could definitely ask the elemental not to attack the goblins with blue hats.

I have found an item which helps to make this possible!

Traveler's Dictionary wrote:


Each of these books references a specific language and has two sections. The first presents a wide variety of useful phrases and words in Common (arranged by category) followed by a phonetic representation of the same in the language that the book deals with. The second section provides an alphabetical (by phonetic spelling) collection of words and phrases in the second language and their approximate Common translation. Using this book does not grant a bonus on rolls to communicate, but at the GM’s discretion it can negate or reduce a penalty if the other creature is patient enough to wait for the translation.

It seems entirely reasonable that this dictionary could be used to state the phrase "My familiar will translate for me" (or - something funnier).

Though I think a 'Masterwork Tool' book which had *only* that phrase - in every language imaginable - would be easier to use, so I think I might still promote that idea.

4/5 *

While a neat solution for a home game, don't expect this to be a reliable workaround for PFS. "...if the other creature is patient enough to wait for the translation." doesn't make it sound very useful for a rounds/level spell to me. Ditto, using a familiar or hand signals.

1/5

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Okay, one more bump for one more idea. I think this one is the simplest yet so it may be preferred - for you experienced GM types, let me know if this is reasonable.

Being that my familiar has Truespeech, which grants the ability of tongues, which says:

Tongues wrote:
This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect.

So - my familiar can speak *any* language, on command.

Therefore:

Summoner: "Hey, familiar, I'm about to summon a big giant fire elemental. How do you say "My familiar will translate my commands for me" in ignan?

Familiar: IGGY STIGGY WIGGY POO!

Summoner: ...really?

Familiar: Yes boss. That's the noble dialect too.

Summoner: IGGY STIGGY WIGGY POO?

Familiar: Yes - but don't phrase it like a question. Because then it means something...else. You don't want to know.

Summoner: What's the 'POO' in that sentence? Are you the POO?

Familiar: No boss, you're the 'POO'.

Summoner: Sigh...(Casts 'summon big giant fire elemental')...IGGY STIGGY WIGGY POO!

Big Giant Fire Elemental: (turns to familiar) He just said that you'll translate for us, and that he smells like poo. Nice one. Okay, what does he want?

...

Alright, I might have gotten distracted by writing that script, but the gist remains. Is there anything mechanically wrong with having my familiar tell me a single sentence in the creature's language, and then I blurt it out phonetically, thus expressing that my familiar will translate? Is this reasonable? What sort of action - if any - would this consume?

4/5 *

Nice script! But...yes, there is something mechanically wrong with it - there is no rule which allows it. You can't partially learn a language, just like you can't circumvent Knowledge checks by saying you read Monster Illustrated magazines in your downtime.

In Pathfinder, if you want an ability, you pay for that ability. Anything else throws everything up for "GM discretion", and that means it will be different every time you play. This sort of situation does not work for an Organized Play campaign, where we're talking about tens of thousands of players, all trying to find their own neat ways to do things.

Home game, very cool ideas. In PFS, though, this opens a huge can of worms for every GM in the campaign, just to let you do one kinda neat thing now and again.

1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Nice script! But...yes, there is something mechanically wrong with it - there is no rule which allows it.

The rule we are talking about is:

Summon Monster wrote:
If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

The issue is that the word 'communicate' is not mechanically defined within the context of the game. We know that, within the game, we may 'communicate' - it is certainly an expectation that intelligent beings within the Golarion universe may 'communicate' - but we are not given the functional details on precisely what that means.

Now - please do correct me if I'm wrong here - but my understanding is in a situation such as this, where a term is used in RAW but there is no mechanical definition provided as to precisely what that term means, a PFS GM may then decide what is reasonable to occur. This is not inventing a rule; rather, it is an attempt to find a reasonable manner in which to implement a rule which does exist.

The intent of this thread then is to come up with suggestions what are
1.) reasonable, such that it may be assumed that 'many' GMs would be comfortable allowing it given the term 'communicate'
2.) affordable, such that it not take up gross skill point or feat expenditure
3.) funny (optional, but encouraged)

Being that RAW only uses the word 'communicate', we are *forced* to mechanically define it ourselves; the only alternative is to place the most pedantic of definitions we can conceive of, which I know is an option that some PFS GMs do recommend and follow.

I also know that, being that RAW is fuzzy here, table variation will absolutely take place. That's okay; I can live with that.

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