The Celestial Soul Trade and Other Inner Plane Observations


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


Soul trading has been denoted in Pathfinder to being an evil practice. Night hags kidnap wayward souls. Fiends barter for their acquisition. This rich astral economy seems to clearly favor the most wicked aspects of reality, and it's hard to ignore that this trade, like any other economy, would not strengthen them collectively.

But what about the celestials? We know so little of how they operate. All we know is that they uphold goodness in all forms, but that flat statement holds a lot to be desired. If evil mortals can bargain their soul to devils, could good mortals not bargain their souls to angels?

The greater good requires sacrifice. Those sacrifices may be applauded, even rewarded, but they must be done. Why should evil masters be the only ones to empower their servants?

Archons are lawful beings. They deal regularly in strict codes, deals, and pacts, all of which are no less enforced than those made in Hell (albeit enforced differently, possibly with a Mark of Justice or other effect). What if a mortal could, in an hour of desperation, pledge their soul to serve Heaven in exchange for the power to change their fate? If a neutral or even evil creature could shackle themselves to the celestial host instead of the infernal legions, not only would Heaven turn away a potentially wicked soul from joining the ranks of the Outter Planes, but so could they also gain a soldier for their cause. The souls pledged this way wouldn't even be 'rewarded' (especially if they're evil). As mentioned, benevolence requires sacrifice. In exchange for power to achieve an agreeable goal, they will shackle their existence and forever serve the angelic host. Their free will would be eradicated. Selfishness, personal desire, all of it washed away. The only pleasure permitted would be the satisfaction of knowing they're making a positive difference in the world.

It could, depending on the character, be a hell all on its own.

My point is, mortals seem to have SO many reasons to turn to Hell, Abaddon, and the Abyss, but it feels like the good-aligned planes offer -nothing- other than 'we're the good guys' to recruit people and souls to the cause of righteousness. The question I ask is this:

What, if any, is the relationship that the celestial beings have with the mortal world? What do they offer? What must be paid in turn? Do they act within the soul trade? Do they disrupt their enemies' own trade? Partake in their own, more benign version of it? After all, they might like each other, but there's no mistaking that even the celestials have their own interests and agendas over their fellow angels.


Problem is that if the Good planes accept that kind of soul pledging, they make themselves less Good, and eventually Evil, both by the act of taking souls and taking away their free will (bad enough that this happens to Petitioners as a regular matter of course although possibly unintentionally), and by accepting Evil souls (or ones that plede themselves but then turn Evil before arriving there). The Evil planes, on the other hand, have no qualms about accepting and desecrating Good souls. Hell in particular makes a specialty of this (that is one of the ways they make Erinyes, the others being the breaking of fallen Angels and the Pit Fiend's Deil Shaping ability), but you can be sure that the other Evil planes are no slouches in this department.

Grand Lodge

The forces of good don't need to tempt people to get them on their side and any power that they will offer will be free. The way evil plays their games with souls is just not in their nature.
People naturally desire to be considered good. Good is the justification to doing anything extreme. Even Hitler thought he was doing the good thing. Good and celestials (who are the embodiments of good) are the moral high ground.
What celestials do, would be to give power to those who need it and will use it to help others. Heaven will give power to people who wish to protect others, and Elysium will give power to those who wish to bring freedom.
Good's greatest strength however is that when you're doing the good thing you don't need to stand alone. And that is why angels exist and the three good planes work together instead of fighting each other.


And that leaves them at a horrible disadvantage against the evil planes. By this logic, it means all deals are innately evil, since that means forcing someone to do something they don't necessarily want to do in exchange for something that they do. Most pacts with Hell, I imagine, serve particularly nefarious and wicked ends: revenge on someone who doesn't deserve it, subjugation of a nation, power for your own sake...

but what about the pacts made to save a loved one? You can argue 'the good would do it for its own sake' but there is much more at stake in the multiverse than the safety of one mortal. Hell tempts the desperate and besieged with a promise of deliverance in exchange for their souls. In a perfect world, Heaven would grant deliverance to all who call for it, but the sad fact is that the enemy is everywhere, and the forces of good need soldiers like any other army. It might be seen as a 'necessary evil' but if a pact is made where a good action begets greater goodness, through personal sacrifice that is celebrated and honored, then how is that evil? And if an evil creature is willing to submit to the forces of good, to turn away and serve eternally for a just cause, their service bound and enforced to deny their darker nature, is this no different than a convict providing community service to earn his release? Wouldn't it be better to deny the evil planes another soldier than the pridefully say that such a soul does not deserve the Inner Planes? Hell, it might not even be given the right to taste Nirvana's peace, Heaven's sanctity, or Elysium's pleasures for centuries to come, by which time its virtues will far outstrip its current sins. If angels can fall, why can't demons ascend?

Good and evil aren't just arbitrary moral standings. They are actual, physical forces in the world, and like all elements antithesis to each other, they wage a war that requires more than passively waiting for souls to come in one at a time. Bargains must be made. Action must be taken. The enemy isn't passive. Why should they be?

Grand Lodge

Read through the books, chronicles of the righteous, and champions of purity and that should help answer some of your questions. But good isn't being passive, they just fight differently.


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The novel "The Redemption Engine" actually covers this question.

Redemption Engine:
Two Angels learn a way to build a machine, which is able to pull non-good souls into heaven and make them into angels. At the end both fall from grace, and they are executed by a redeemed devil after trying to storm Pharasmas court

As for disatvantage in the war: The war between heaven and hell is a war of Philosophy. Heaven belives in Law through rightousness, hell in Law through oppression. If the forces of heaven would employ hell´s tactics of recruitment, wouldn´t they admit that hell is right, making the whole war pointless?

Heavens method of recruitment of the other side is called redemption.


Aldrius wrote:
And that leaves them at a horrible disadvantage against the evil planes.

Yes, that's part of the price of being good: Accepting disadvantages in favor of being moral. Good is not just the gold-colored version of evil, it's a completely different mindset.

Hunting for advantages fits an opportunistic (neutral) alignment, ruthless hunting for them with accepting or enjoying collateral damage is already evil.

Good is about hope (among other things), so good beings accept being outmatched and having only restricted options. Sometimes they fall because of it, but sometimes they grow to unexpected strength when they overcome enormous challenges.

Despite the endless fiendish legions, the forces of good still exist, don't they?


Aldrius wrote:
{. . .} If angels can fall, why can't demons ascend? {. . .}

Wrath of the Righteous:

They can. It's just super-rare.


SheepishEidolon wrote:
Aldrius wrote:
And that leaves them at a horrible disadvantage against the evil planes.

Yes, that's part of the price of being good: Accepting disadvantages in favor of being moral. Good is not just the gold-colored version of evil, it's a completely different mindset.

They might have a disadvantage there, but unlike evil outsiders the different good outsiders actually get along pretty well, and our willing to cooperate with one another to accomplish goals. Even without a "blood war" like in the DnD materials, the different evil races don't really cooperate or get along, and even within the ranks of a specific fiend race their is a whole lot of backstabbing that the likes of celestials don't really need to worry about.

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