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Hi All,
Well, I've been maneuvered into running the AP for my son aged 8, and daughter aged 10. Both of them have played a few small adventures before, Beginner's Box stuff and a couple of PFS scenarios. They know the basics of game play quite well actually and wanted to try something with a larger and longer story. I was thinking Dragon's Demand, they saw the cover art for Jade Regent. Ninjas! Samurai! They both love Asian themes are were totally hooked on Jade Regent from there. So I caved, and off we go. I'm probably crazy, or will be.
I'm looking for any advice anyone might have on running Jade Regent with kids. I will be dropping the relationship and caravan systems, and editing content for age as needed. I'm more concerned about making the plot work and keeping things on track with a large undertaking like an AP.
Help? Please? :)
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Thanks for the suggestions Alric, I wish that I could go that route but I think the train is already too far out of the station for it. Apologies, the first message was a quick dash off when I didn't have enough time to lay things out a bit more. So here goes.
We've used Sandpoint and the vicinity for most everything that they've played so far so they know the town and some of the npc's there pretty well. Their characters are already made, a Tengu Slayer and Half-Elf Rogue. I am starting them at 2nd level in the AP, and they have been doing a few small mini-adventure type things to level up to second. They already know Ameiko and absolutely LOVE her. I've played her as sort of a Angel Dynamite to their Scooby Gang. She provides a cool place to hand out, offers advice, can broker information or point them in the right direction for other contacts, that type of stuff.
The Tengu Slayer has been in Sandpoint for a few months after traveling from Tian Xia. He knows Tien and will eventually be able to act as something of a cross-cultural broker in the latter half of he AP. I can also feed him background info on Tian Xia related subjects to help with the story. It should also keep my son pleased.
The Half-Elf Rogue has a connection to Sandru, having traveled with his caravan in the past. They also know of Shalelu due to conversations with other NPC's.
I think they are pretty well tied into relationships with the major NPC's, including two PC stand-ins that I'm running since there are only 2 players. A brother witch and sister bolt ace, who were introduced before Jade Regent loomed. The brother and sister are also ethnic Tian, but local to Sandpoint. Grew up on a farm outside town as the "other" Tian family in the area. They will be coming along as well since Risako the sister is the Half-Elf's BFF now.
<Sigh> That's a lot of NPC's to juggle but I've gotten used to it and I figure that I'll reduce the roles of some of the AP NPC's a bit. I also doubt I'll take on any of the others available later in the path unless there;s a really compelling reason. Also, I don't have to worry about many of the complexities that would come with running the AP with adult players so I'll have some attention to transfer to NPC management.
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I'm hesitant to connect the Half Elf PC to the throne directly, replacing Ameiko, or indirectly, as Ameiko's relative,because I think it could create a bigger problem than it might solve. By putting one of the PC's in an elevated position, I might create the impression of favoritism. Or at least I'm pretty sure my son would see it that way. All of the PC's are scions anyway, and that keeps them equal. It would never really come into play anyway. There won't be any PC deaths outside the possibility that one of them wants to change to a new character. Ameiko will survive and will gain the throne. Other NPC deaths are possible, but I won't simply let the dice fall as they will.
Really I'm not worried about getting buy-in for the quest. Actually that's easier with kids than adults I think. In my experience kids are much more likely to feel important by helping with something important than adults. There's relatively little of the 'What's in it for me?" or cost benefit analysis that adult players are prone to. So the issue of players feeling like they are side act in Ameiko's AP is less of a problem.
What I'm more worried about are places in the AP where the plot drags or becomes convoluted. Attention span is a much bigger problem than enthusiasm. I need to create a feeling of constant and steady progress in throughout the AP.
I think railroading is actually a feature rather than a bug with kids. Clear paths forward or a clear set of distinct choices work, but sandbox-type 'do as you will" situations kill. I don't think that pre-teen thinking is abstract enough for that yet.
I'll be using the NPC's as a sort of greek chorus to present options and alternative views as the PC's decide things. Or if they need orientation. And yes, I'll definitely be tagging and altering some descriptions.
We've used Sandpoint and the vicinity for most everything that they've played so far so they know the town and some of the npc's there pretty well. Their characters are already made, a Tengu Slayer and Half-Elf Rogue. I am starting them at 2nd level in the AP, and they have been doing a few small mini-adventure type things to level up to second. They already know Ameiko and absolutely LOVE her.
What I'm more worried about are places in the AP where the plot drags or becomes convoluted. Attention span is a much bigger problem than enthusiasm. I need to create a feeling of constant and steady progress in throughout the AP.
One problem in The Brinewall Legacy is Ameiko herself. She is a fifth-level character and can make the adventure too easy if she joins the party. The module sidetracks her twice: she does not accompany the party to the Brinestump Marsh and she falls mysteriously unconscious right before Brinewall Castle. I hated both of those suggestions, so I made my own excuses instead, by setting the Jade Regent adventure overlapping the Rise of the Runelords adventure so that Ameiko was busy with the Rise of the Runelords events at those times.
For your adventure, I suggest sending Ameiko along to Brinestump Marsh. Yes, she is overpowered, but the attack on the goblin village is so chaotic that everyone will have excitement. I played it with an eight-player party, so I boosted the goblins in the Licktoad Tribe by adding the four first-level goblins from the We Be Goblins free module. That should balance out adding Ameiko to the party. Avoid leveling Ameiko up until the party reaches her level and she will stop being overpowered.
I did not use the caravan rules for the journey north from Sandpoint to Brinewall Castle. Instead, I threw four CR7 ogre barbarians against the caravan. The PCs and the named NPCs battled two of them and the nameless caravan guards battled the other two off scene. The module does not have any planned encounters for the caravan trip. I should have planned more travel encounters, such as the caravan passing through a small trade village or carefully fording a river.
As for Brinewall Castle, having your son playing a tengu opens up an interesting possibility. Kikonu, the lord of Brinewall Castle, is a yamabushi tengu oni, which means an oni that chose to mimic a tengu when he formed mortal flesh for himself. He had been part of the invasion force of Frozen Shadow human and tengu ninjas that invaded Brinewall Castle to kill the Kaijitsu family but remained behind when the rest of the Frozen Shadows moved north to Kalsgard, the site of the second module. Kikonu is fascinated with bird-like humanoids, such as dire corbies, harpies, and tengu. If the party learns this in advance, perhaps from Spivey the lyrakien who lives in abandoned Brinewall Village, then they could plan to have the tengu slayer and a few harmless-looking friends simply walk up to the castle and hope for an invitation. Sneaky bluffing favors a slayer and rogue. Ameiko could stay out of sight with the caravan because of the risk of being recognized as a Kaijitsu.
It is fun to rolepay an evil character trying to be nice and failing badly. For example, Kikonu could fawn over the tengu character, but treat his friends like dirt.
The basement of Brinewall Castle has some horrors, but I don't know them. We were nearing Christmas vacation at the end of the module, so I skipped it. When the party would have gone down to find the second Brinewall crest to unlock the vault, their harpy ally Zaiobe, who had promised them treasure for helping her, said that she could fetch the crest without risk, so how about she given them the crest instead of the treasure? The party agreed. I moved the prisoner Kelda Oxgutter to being a prisoner of the Frozen Shadows in the next module.
The second and third module are disappointing to players eager for Tien Xian (Asian) content. Night of Frozen Shadows occurs in Kalsgard, a Ulfen (Viking) city, and The Hungry Storm is polar travel. However, Kalsgard has a Jade Quarter, their district for Tien Xian immigrants, so you can play up the Tien culture there.
Some of the clues in Night of Frozen Shadows are too vague for children to piece together, but if Kikonu in Brinewall Castle talks about the Frozen Shadows in Kalsgard, and maybe the awakened raven Wodes is visiting Brinewall Castle when the party arrives, then you can give them more solid clues in advance.
In Forest of Spirits I substituted the Ruby Phoenix Tournament for the House of Withered Blossoms, but my players insisted on doing both. Fortunately, they efficiently sped through the House of Withered Blossoms, so it wasn't a drag. I made some changes to the tournament to make it friendlier, see my chronicles of the event.
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Thanks for all of the hints and suggestions so far! They’ve been very helpful to me as I think about what to do going forward. Taken in chronological order:
It’s too late to place Ameiko with the party in the marsh. They’ve already started there without her. I don’t think they will really need her help though. They’ve turned out to be shockingly effective in combat. They have just left Walthus at his cabin after rescuing him. The faceless stalker lasted all of 2 rounds against them and never landed a blow. The way I did character creation was to have them describe what they wanted, and then I took them through making it happen. Their characters aren’t optimized, but they’re well made and it looks like they can use them effectively. When they get things like remembering that they are great flanking partners down, they should be very capable. The bigger problem I’m beginning to see is that they aren’t readily cued in by clues that I drop. I was really telegraphing that there was something fishy about the first “Walthus” and, although they thought he was odd, they didn’t sense a real problem. I eventually had the first Walthus prepare them a meal of chopped raw potatoes and beets with a whole skinned but raw rabbit (Faceless Stalkers don’t really understand cuisine prep) and they still didn’t pick up on things other than the guy was weird. I had to have him flip the food tray at them as a surprise attack move. At that point they took him apart.
If and until they start picking up on the social aspects of dealing with NPCs a bit better, I’m going to have to really work to make sure they get information. BTW, they have heard the rumors of the Soggy River Monster, caught a glimpse once, and are totally freaked out by it. I might change it into a mangy hairless bear that is harmless to reinforce the idea that not everything they hear from people is true.
I think they’ll put the clues together and get the letter to Ameiko just fine. At the least, 3 out of 4 of the party members already read Tien, so it’s pretty much a given they will know what they have.
I won’t be using caravan rules and I think I will also skip random encounters on the road. I figure that instead I will plan a few set piece encounters to provide travel flavor. Maybe 1 combat and 2 or so noncombat. I think I will use coma device too keep Ameiko out of Brinewall. It’s the first hint that there are powerful and mysterious forces at work and I really want to drive home the idea that this isn’t actually a mundane “fetch the treasure” type of story. I do plan to eliminate most or all of the Ameiko is captured/kidnapped again scenarios from later on. They get a bit ridiculous.
Yeah, having a Tengu in the party makes for all sorts of interesting possibilities at Brinewall. I really like the idea of having Kikonu receive him as a guest rather than an adversary. I’d been turning some ideas around in my head for a while and I think I like this one the best. The idea of having Spivey tip them off about Kikonu’s love of all things bird and his nastiness is what could make it work. I doubt they would come up with the idea of using this for infiltration would come to them on the fly, but if she helped them get started with a plan, it could be really fun. I can see the Dire Corby’s at the gate looking at the party, looking at each other, shrugging, and just opening the gate for them. “Must be somebody important to see Kikonu.” They’ll probably have to fight eventually, but yes it may be a way for them a lot about the Frozen Shadows. They will almost certainly ally with Zaiobe the harpy, and I will change things so that she leaves peacefully rather than turning on them. I want to use her as a way to show that it’s possible to accomplish things without having to fight everyone.
Hopefully they will have figured out the whole “wander around and collect information” routine by the time they reach Karlsgard. Night of Frozen Shadows might be tough otherwise. On the one hand I like the part about a shadowy organization watching and acting against the party. It doesn’t make a lot of sense that the Frozen Shadows don’t act more decisively against the party to adults. But that won’t be a problem in this case. Should be great for slowly ratcheting up tension. On the other hand, the bait and switch nature of looking for Ulf and the the sword might get frustrating. I will certainly keep and use the Helmet Cassisian even though I personally hate it. If frustration levels are rising, I may actually change the funeral boat scene by putting Ulf on the boat and getting rid of the undead guy (I also don’t really like that part. It seems pointlessly stuck in) and making the ninja ambush more powerful. Ulf can then give them information they need to proceed on toward the sword. This could offer an earlier reward for all the schlepping around if need be.
I figure I’ll do The Hungry Storm as a group of time-lapse set pieces as well. It should be easy to create the impression that the trip is long and arduous without having to actually make it long and arduous. I’ve seen quite a few people on the board say that Under Frozen Stars is a great add on for this part of the AP. Does anyone know if it’s kid playable? I haven’t actually looked at it, but would consider it.
I haven’t read closely as far as Withered Blossoms yet, but yes, I’ve also seen quite a few mentions of subbing the Tournament for it. I really like the non-lethal alteration to tournament fights and will certainly use it. Perhaps there’s a certain magical item they need to win which will be important later. I’ll include it and maybe send the major NPCs to Withered Blossoms. That will give the NPCs some important stuff to take care of, and depending on how the party feels about missing it, either skip it, or send them as reinforcements to do a rescue or mop up job in a shorter version.
What about later political intrigues on the last part of the AP? I’ve seen a bit about the cabal of central baddies and how it is supposed to be possible to set them against each other, but that the system in place to do doesn’t actually work. Has anyone tinkered with that?
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We had our next session this morning and the kids are doing well. Maybe a tiny bit too well. They bulldozed the Licktoads with little more than a scratch or two. Of course their dice were hot and mine were cold, but it was very one sided. Eh, they had fun. I might have to reconsider keeping them a level higher though.
Also, so much for keeping things mild. I wanted to avoid the ear-taking aspect of collecting on the Licktoad bounty, so when they were discussing the subject with Sheriff Hemlock, he simply told them he would need proof. My daughter replies with "We'll cut off their heads and bring them back". I was a bit taken aback. Hemlock replied "Um, I think just the ears will do".
So as the attack on the Licktoads concluded, the party had 1 wounded goblin remaining as a prisoner. I made sure this happened so hey could question him. My daughter tells the goblin, "We'll let you live and let you go, but I'll have to cut off one of your ears. I want the bounty." Sheesh! Managed to talk her down through the npcs.
I think the AP would work well with younger players. By it's nature it is about friendship and changing the world.
A full writeup of our run with mods I made or wish I had made is at http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rxuo?We-Finished-Another-Final-Review-of-Jade- Regent.
A couple of points.
1 - Don't be so quick to dismiss the trek across the north pole. It is a trek but that is part of the feeling. The journey through the cold, dealing with the elements and seeing the strange things on the ice. Some of the items on the random encounter list are very interesting set pieces.
2 - A neat idea if you want to lace some education into the AP. This AP touches many different cultures from our own history. Viking, Horse Lord Riders, Eskimo/Inuit, Japanese. While these are the pathfinder equivalents they borrow from real life ideas. You could use this an a way to springboard discussions or movies talking about the real world cultures they writers were inspired by.
3 - While the relationship system should be scrapped their is an add on for sale from a 3rd party that has some great side plots storylines for the characters. Can' remember what it is but it refers to this as the 'asian campaign'. I wish I had those storylines to weave into the campaign.
Have fun and hope to hear it goes well.
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Actually they did think of taking all the ears for more bounty money, which led to a discussion of bilateral symmetry and Hemlock not being a fool :)
I'm not planning on throwing out the trek completely, just compressing it into a series of set pieces with some sort narration of time and progress for the trek in between. I want them to know it's a long trip but not feel like it's a long trip. Boredom will set in easily if it starts feeling long a think. Likely I'll use the set pieces included in Hungry Storm and supplement them with a small number of more mundane things, crossing a crevasse, maybe a hunting trip to restock supplies, etc.
I think the educational angle will come pretty naturally. They are both curious enough and I'm an anthropologist :)
I did some poking around for the add-ons and I found a couple of things but I'm not sure which ones you were specifically mentioning. Legendary Games seems to have produced them all if I'm on the right track. I'm already pretty sure I'll use "Under Frozen Stars" and I'm looking at "The Baleful Coven" also. The new ones I found are "Road to Destiny", which looks like it's to be used during the trip to Brinewall, and "Imperial Relationships", which looks like a supplement or replacement for the relationship rules in the AP. Are these the ones you were thinking of?
I'll likely pick them up, the relationships add-on is cheap and might have some good stuff to use with the major NPCs but likely I would just mine it for some ideas. I'm a bit more leery about the "Destiny" add-on since it seems to be another Ameiko kidnapping plot. God knows the AP doesn't need another of those. But it might be alterable.
Thanks for the tips!
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I just run Destiny with my group and it has far more to it than the kidnap Ameiko plot. Which is a big point of the plot but only a small point of the action actually.
I also added suggestions I found on these threads (for example werewolves near the appropriate town) and mixed it with Destiny's plot, which immersed it even more in local happenings. This delighted those of my players who already knew much about this part of Varisia.
Ultimate Relationships and Imperial Relationships are very likely what Huntsfromshadow was talking about. They are indeed a very good replacement for the Relationship rules in the AP. Alas, my players are utterly disinterested in mechanics for the relationships, so I mostly use them for scenes and ideas, even though I have them keep track of their ranks.
Legendary has recently released more Relationship supplements for JR for NPCs you meet in the first books :-)