So touching an illusion automatically beats it? Yeah I don't thinks.
Touching an illusion automatically disbelieves it, if touching it would show that it is not real. That's not only a rule but common sense.
If you'd like to get tecnical;
Only a true seeing spell or similar magic reveals the true nature of the armor when it is disguised.Only true seeing can reveal the true nature of the armor, not your sense of touch or hearing, only true seeing.
So are you sure you like to be technical on this one?
Sure.
The true nature requires true seeing. You can tell it's metal, but just knowing that wont tell you much about the true nature of the armour aside from it's material. It could be anything from a chain shirt to fullplate.
The invisibility spell gives you the invisible condition which specifies;
And glammered specifies it changes the appearance of the armour... what is your point?
1. Show me the rule where it says touching an illusion automatically disbelieves it. You've just rendered an entire school of magic pointless.
..... you do realize that I was quoting the illusion section when I used the quotation marks right? And it's not useless just because some of it's spells don't work when someone sticks there hand in a friggin hologram.
Secondly, the fact it's made of metal is part of it's true nature.
So is it's weight and armour bonus, etc. -.-
It is obviously meaning it's True nature. Not every aspect of it's nature.Thirdly, let's assume your right, and illusions are not only useless, their the cosmic joke of the magic world. Great, the bad guy instead uses some mundane skill to do it. Maybe disguise, or craft, to disguise it's feel. Won't hold up to scrutiny, but with a glammer it should be enough for the druid to get it on before he realizes hey... somethings off here.
Only if that druid really really really really sucks at his perception skill.... and it's a wisdom based class.
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@ memorax - if you want to make a fighter that does things besides fighting (why you wouldn't play a different class at that point is beyond me, but anyway) you absolutely can. Go Lore Warden and be the random knowledge guy. Pick up Master Craftsman and be a smith of legend. VMC into any of the dozen options there. Get an animal companion or familiar. Play AS the familiar while the fighter character is actually your dull but well--meaning sidekick/bodyguard. PrC into something. Ask your GM to let you be a monster race fighter, like a Minotaur. You have options besides "I hit it" and they aren't hard to find, but the designers can't hold your hand every step of the way, they can only provide you rules and say "try this and see if you like it."
While I think Lore Warden is a decent alternative. I will usually not take it nor recommend it. First off losing medium and heavy armor proficency simply to get a few more skill points and int based skills is simply not worth the trade imo. What's the logic behind that design of the class really. Medium and heavy armor constrict blood flow to the brain. Combat Expertise ok but not really worth it imo.
Know thy Enemy is ok but if you have a Bard they can do the same thing to the Fighter. Which gets better as the Bard goes higher in level. Made worse that unlike A Bards Performance that at high levels requires less time to do. Know Thy Enemy takes a Standard action at 7th level. Swift at 4th level with no increase in to the bonus. By 14th level everyone else has more better class abilites. Even the Rogue. Hairs Breadth by the time you get it. One probably has invested in armor with light fortification if not more.
Your other suggestions while viable require a DM with a open mind. Which is not something one can find in the hobby. Want to play only core races only no monster pcs.A wizards familiar or animal companion no thanks. Too easy and vunerable espcially the familiar at the beginning of a game. Master Craftsman maybe but again requires a DM who gives a decent amount of treasure and downtime. I'm not taking that feat anytime at the start.
Throwing your toys out of the pram won't help anyone, least of all yourself.
I do take issue with this. I see flaws in the system. I might be vocal about them. I don't see why pointing them out does not make a fan. Or the equivalent of taking my ball home because I can't get what I want at the playground. If I really hated the system I would play something else. I simply almost never play Fighters. I play other classes I find more enjoyable.
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Redjack the problem with your tactic and why many of is sat it's unrealistic with a big does of DM fiat. Is that a Druid is not simply going to walk away from his group to take a bath. Most group I play with unless they are complete novices to the hobby never split up if they can help it for any reason. You can bet the smart player who has a animal companion is going to train it to do guard duty. At higher levels tiny hut and secure shelter while removing privacy almost guarantee your not getting ambushed. In a city theirs guards as well.
It's a viable tactic but still one that feels forced and contrived as it requires to many ifs. If a Druid does not post a animal companion as a guard. If their no guards and is on. Mind you the entire revering nature yet it's okay to wear the hide of a animal seems kind of strange imo. You can't wear metal armor. But that guard lion you just killed. Well it's okay to gut, skin, and clean it's hide to wear it.
I not only see no quotation marks in your post
Scroll up to where I made the claim....
I'm on the magic; Illusion section of the SRD and I don't see any where that touching an illusion automatically disbelieves it.
I do see;
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Bolded.
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While I think Lore Warden is a decent alternative. I will usually not take it nor recommend it. First off losing medium and heavy armor proficency simply to get a few more skill points and int based skills is simply not worth the trade imo.
You get 21 feats mang. If you really want medium or heavy armor is it that hard to get back? I feel like you're complaining just to complain when there are trivial solutions to your problems.
Your other suggestions while viable require a DM with a open mind. Which is not something one can find in the hobby.
It's not something you can find; you don't speak for me or anyone else for that matter.
Your problems sound like they stem from "no halfway decent GMs in your area" rather than the system itself. Designers say "here, have all these cool variants that give fighters something else to do," but your crappy GM comes along and says "No! CRB only! You will play your vanilla fighter and by God you will like it!" And you then turn around and blame the system. It makes no sense. So I stand by my suggestion that you may as well quit the hobby; there's no way to make a situation like that productive or fun, and life is just too short.
There are no quotation marks here.
Ugh... my actual claim was:
"A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw." They don't believe it's a wall.
As for your bolded part; It still doesn't say touching is proof the illusion isn't real. I have played and always played that if you see an illusion wall and run up to touch it, you think there's a wall there till you disbelieve it [such as a companion walking through it or casting detect magic].
This is not my ruling, this is the ruling of every GM I have ever played with.
Then you and your GM's have been using houserules. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is the facts.
Prove that touching is sufficient proof.
You just made a be all, end all ruling. Prove it.
Touching, means interaction, which, would allow a save.
You say otherwise.
Prove it.
If your hand goes through, you can see it, you can see and feel your hand passing through the air were the wall is meant to be. That is proof that it is an illusion. Thus it auto-disbelieves.
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Then you and your GM's have been using houserules. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is the facts.I would believe you, except for many of those GM's have been from PFS and of those, many are Venture Captains/Lt. You still haven't showed me anywhere where it says touching an illusion automatically disbelieves it.
Give me that exact wording, or concede the point please.
As a frequent pfs player (16 characters, 3 retired after level 11, 3 gm stars) I can think of several venture officers who were great organizers but not particularly good gms.
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You get 21 feats mang. If you really want medium or heavy armor is it that hard to get back? I feel like you're complaining just to complain when there are trivial solutions to your problems.
I should not have to waste two feats to get that back in the first place. I could understand the loss of both feats. If the class required a player to move into position and be close to a enemy to get a benefit. A lose of two armor categories to get a few more skill points and int based skills. Is not a viable tradeoff imo. So yeah I get 21 feats that have to be wasted on something that the class should have never really lost in the first place.
It's not something you can find; you don't speak for me or anyone else for that matter.
Where did I say I spoke for you or everyone else. Stop reading too much into my words. You offered suggestions. All I said that some of them required a DM with a open mind. Not every DM is going to want a player using a monster race as a PC. Not every DM is going to allow a player to play as a animal companion as a PC. Not to mention it requires a 3pp such as the Noble Wild to do so. Again not every DM allows 3pp. Maybe your lucky and you play with DMs with little to no restrictions. In my experience it's usually not the case
Your problems sound like they stem from "no halfway decent GMs in your area" rather than the system itself. Designers say "here, have all these cool variants that give fighters something else to do," but your crappy GM comes along and says "No! CRB only! You will play your vanilla fighter and by God you will like it!" And you then turn around and blame the system. It makes no sense. So I stand by my suggestion that you may as well quit the hobby; there's no way to make a situation like that productive or fun, and life is just too short.
So DMs that don't allow you to do what you want at the table are not decent DMs. If one says "core only" then they are bad DMs. While I wish every DM would allow everything I would want to play. It's not going to happen. I don't allow gunslingers. As I hate the PF gun rules. I guess myself and everyone else that does must be "bad Dms".
Ah I see "it's not the fault of the system it's you" counter argument. First you keep telling me to leave the hobby. Then you call me a bad DM. Know your blaming others for the short comings off the system. It's not like I never heard those before. What's next you can't say anything negative on these boards.
If a DM has to alter RAW to make a class viable it's the fault of the system. When I buy a rpg I want every class to not be perfect at least function and be viable at the game table without my needing to change it. I have enough to do as a DM already. I don't need more work> Let me guess I must be a lazy dm. I allow archtypes, I allow 3pp in terms of helping martials and that's all i'm willing to do. If Paizo wants the image of them not giving martials nice things. Then it's up to them to change it not me.
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Like I know Memorax and myself have gotten into a few disagreements, but I really don't see half of the things he's being called out for. Maybe should tone it down a smidge.
Thanks Redjack. i still think your tactic with the chain shirt requires too much DM fiat ;). Still a viable tactic though. I don't think Psyren realizes he pretty much insulted everyone that allows core only. Maybe not by name but he did. Do i wish every DM in the world would allow everything that has been printed in the rules. Of course. The reality is that it's simply not going to happen imo. I consider myself a fairly permissive DM and even I have some stuff I don't allow at the table.
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Denver, Co. I've shared tables with Mike Brock. I've also played in Pasedena, Orange County, KC, and Atlanta but never online. I watched the Superbowl two years ago with two people from Seattle and that was depressing.
One thing, I'm listening to you and you seem be very concerned about being "right" asking people to conceed points, claiming you've proved things etc.
I would say, its irrellevant if you and the people around you aren't having fun.
There seems to be several arguements here. One of which is whether the Nerf was quality work. You can argue numbers but if at the end of the day, half the people who look at the class and say, this class is not attractive on all sorts of levels (thematically, a successful nerf, etc).
The only thing I've seen proven is that what should have been an easy sell i.e. a toned down summoner, should have been an easy sell. However, the quality of the nerf has divided opinions.
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If your hand goes through, you can see it, you can see and feel your hand passing through the air were the wall is meant to be. That is proof that it is an illusion. Thus it auto-disbelieves.Prove that touching is sufficient proof.
You just made a be all, end all ruling. Prove it.
Touching, means interaction, which, would allow a save.
You say otherwise.
Prove it.
Figments reproduce sensation, but they also cannot support weight. I and the GMs I run with play it that the Will save allows you to overcome your sensation of solidity and actually push through the illusion to disbelieve it.
This druid thing is stupid....
I would like to point out that druids get perception as a class skill... AND have high wis....
oh and we cannot forget their animal companion...
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As for the nerf, it is a matter of opinion. Honestly, someone saying "I don't like the class" doesn't bother me. What does bother me is when someone comes here and rants "Worst class ever, devs are stupid." I want to defend the class and analyze their claims....
Ofc people will say that is "the worse class ever" since it didnt even had to exist in the first place , the unsummoner is nothing but a nerf to the summoner , that if isnt done right , has no point. If the unrogue was also a piece of crap , you bet people would complain all night and day about it, since it would also be a missed opportunity just like the unsummoner.
Ofc this doesnt mean the class couldnt be used , just that they made a crappy job while nerfing it and like he said , what should have been easy for people to accept , instead made many just burn these pages of the book.
Considering what i love the most in the summoner class is exactly the fact i could come up with any eidolon and with any backstory for it i wanted , the unsummoner is something i atleast will never play anyway.
On the other hand the only change i see is in the PFS , outside it i also dont see such difference from a GM that already banned the summoner away. Just get up , thank the invite and leave , problem solved as far as outside PFS goes for me.
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Like I know Memorax and myself have gotten into a few disagreements, but I really don't see half of the things he's being called out for. Maybe should tone it down a smidge.
I quoted what he said verbatim. "A DM with a open mind is not something one can find in the hobby." His words, not mine, and phrased as a statement of general fact, with no rational basis that I can see.
I don't think Psyren realizes he pretty much insulted everyone that allows core only. Maybe not by name but he did.
First off, shifting goalposts - no one, including you, said anything about "core only" (at least until you brought up a hypothetical GM that denies everything that has been released to help Fighters for no reason.) In fact, this very thread is about a non-core class, so I fail to see how "core only" could ever be an underlying assumption of this discussion.
Second, Core has very specific (and limited) design goals in mind. Fighters fight. If you want to do more in core-only, you play something else like a Ranger or Bard. I don't see what is so unreasonable - or difficult to grasp - about that.
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Fine if it makes you feel better replace "DM with a open mind" with a DM that allows third party material. Allows a player to play a monster as a PC. Or allow a player to be a animal companion and/or familiar as a PC. I'm pretty sure that most DMs won't allow it. There nothing wrong with that IMO. If a DM says " core only" then that's what is. I prefer more than only core allowed and chances are good I would not join such a game. I can respect a DM choice even if I don't agree with it.
I also never mentioned core only. Your the one who did. All I said is that while your suggestions were viable ones. Not every DM is going to agree to them. Your the one who said that a DM who only allows core is being a crappy DM. If a DM upfront allows only core. Then it's poor design choices in a system not the DM. As again not every zen will allow or is forced to allow newer material.
This druid thing is stupid....
I would like to point out that druids get perception as a class skill... AND have high wis....
oh and we cannot forget their animal companion...
I gave a run down of how a wizard with craft could easily beat a druids perception/high wisdom. You are of course, assuming the druid put 1 of their 4 skill points per level into perception to keep it maxed.
Interestingly enough, they do not have sense motive as a class skill... which opens up all sorts of fun for someone else getting them in the metal armor.
There are no druids that don't max perception. So that's right out. And having Sense Motive as a class skill is close to meaningless in PF since it's a whopping +3, which means the Druids WIS Bonus is going to be better then that from level 1 and only get better from there. Finally, even if the Druid puts *no* points into Sense Motive, no PC I know is going to put on something they haven't run Detect Magic/Arcane Sight/Identify/a batter of Divinations. Hell, your "strategy" is undone by Augury for Arkalion's Sake.
Furthermore, any Wizard that *could* manage to somehow do this ridiculously circuitous scheme, could have just killed the Druid with way less difficulty. Since it's easier to actually just kill the Druid, the metal armor limitation is not a real limitation and any success of getting them into Metal Armor is going to be GM fiat.
I recommend conceding this point, or putting forward a tactic that is not GM fiat.
As for the nerf, it is a matter of opinion. Honestly, someone saying "I don't like the class" doesn't bother me. What does bother me is when someone comes here and rants "Worst class ever, devs are stupid." I want to defend the class and analyze their claims....Ofc people will say that is "the worse class ever" since it didnt even had to exist in the first place , the unsummoner is nothing but a nerf to the summoner , that if isnt done right , has no point. If the unrogue was also a piece of crap , you bet people would complain all night and day about it, since it would also be a missed opportunity just like the unsummoner.
Ofc this doesnt mean the class couldnt be used , just that they made a crappy job while nerfing it and like he said , what should have been easy for people to accept , instead made many just burn these pages of the book.
Considering what i love the most in the summoner class is exactly the fact i could come up with any eidolon and with any backstory for it i wanted , the unsummoner is something i atleast will never play anyway.
On the other hand the only change i see is in the PFS , outside it i also dont see such difference from a GM that already banned the summoner away. Just get up , thank the invite and leave , problem solved as far as outside PFS goes for me.
So outside of Pfs, even told to play the unchained summoner, how can you still not make just about any backstory you like? I seriously doubt any GM is going to hold it against you if you want to make a Kyton opposed to a devil, or a Quippoth rather than a demon. Same basic set up, maybe a few tweaked resistances.
Overall, the nerf provided a much need balance to the summoner... mainly the reduction of the freeform evolution points, adjustment of evolution costs, some additional requirements/restrictions, and a readjusted spell list.
Everything else is fluff to most GM's, and much needed for PFS (which runs solely in Galorion).
You see , i dont think there will be a time you will trully understand how much this annoys me based on this answer.
Yes , you can say what trully bothers me is how they messed the fluff. I do love having evolution points , mostly for things that appear and are cool , like having many arms , wings...
Stuff like pounce? I dont really care about it since the start.
Changing the spell list? I dont really care about it either.
Having the book say exactly what is my eidolon with a subtype? Retricting what i can or cant build? ... This is the reason i will never ever play a unsummoner and would rather get up and leave the table.
Mostly fluff? Yes , but this is my favorite class exactly because of the fluff and the lego feelings. So nope , im not willing to play a cut out version of it.
I reject the premises that all druids max perception.
Let me rephrase: Any Druid that is minimally competent maxes perception.
. Swap their clothes while they are bathing/sleeping/making love/any other reason they might have their clothes off. Use glammer and (if your players are especially whiny) a craft check to conceal it's metal nature for the 3 seconds it takes to put it on. Use invisibility and/or a stealthy minion to make the switch.
No (minimally competent) PC lets their gear leave their sight. So... this doesn't work.
Send them a pretty boy/girl with high bluff and perhaps the Innocence spell (1st level bard spell), who after a wild night of passion helps them into their clothes. Again glammer and craft check to conceal.
No (minimally competent) PC engages in intercourse outside of select few people who will undergo great scrutiny to confirm that they are not one of entirely too many monsters that prey on people during intercourse. And no (minimally competent) PC lets other people gear them. Loved one or otherwise.
Disguise the armor as another magic item, like an unfettered shirt or druid vestments. Magic aura fools detect magic. Identify is not a druid spell. At 6th level, assuming there is a party wizard, he only has 3-4 1st level spells. Is he really going to waste an identify on every magic item? Assuming he does, he still has a chance to fail the will save and believe irrevocably the false auras.
All (minimally competent) PCs identify *all* items they wear. More competent PCs hit things with divination like augury. And you think a Druid is going to fail a Will save? The save for which they have good bonus and is their best stat? Ok. That plan is totally plausible and not at all a very likely waste of wealth directly to the druids pocket (/sarcasm).
Do you have a better argument to make?
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Your the one who said that a DM who only allows core is being a crappy DM.
I said no such thing. What I said was a GM who ignores the options that were put out to make martial classes stronger and then complains that martial classes are not strong enough is a being silly. And that I feel pity for a player stuck with such a GM, but it's a problem that player has to solve, by voting with their feet.
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If you really think getting metal armor on a druid is so easy why not simply use the same tactics to replace all of the cloaks in the party one by one with these?
For fun replace any party members that die away from the party, say bathing alone with these!
I mean that sounds fun right?
Yes I know this is a Reductio ad absurdum, however since the following have all occurred in this argument I figured heck why not.
I live in the Seattle, WA area, and many of the GMs/Friends I meanted do as well. They're on friendly terms with people like Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn, and many of the other devs/authors. I've personally met and played with the former [and met but not played with the CEO, Lisa Stevens]. Now I Can't comment on what they would rule, nor will I pretend to. I'm inclined to believe though that my GM's have been playing it ''right'' more than someone on the internet laying down a ruling without actual rules.
2.) Oberoni Fallacy
@ memorax - if you want to make a fighter that does things besides fighting (why you wouldn't play a different class at that point is beyond me, but anyway) you absolutely can. Go Lore Warden and be the random knowledge guy. Pick up Master Craftsman and be a smith of legend. VMC into any of the dozen options there. Get an animal companion or familiar. Play AS the familiar while the fighter character is actually your dull but well--meaning sidekick/bodyguard. PrC into something. Ask your GM to let you be a monster race fighter, like a Minotaur. You have options besides "I hit it" and they aren't hard to find, but the designers can't hold your hand every step of the way, they can only provide you rules and say "try this and see if you like it." .
3.)Ad hominem
Throwing your toys out of the pram won't help anyone, least of all yourself.
I think the reason there is such a... vehement backlash over the proposed idea [and the summoner nerf] is because it is every munchkins worst nightmare.
As if your leaving some how is the ultimate snub you can muster. As if your leaving is -actually- important.
I think the reason there is such a... vehement backlash over the proposed idea [and the summoner nerf] is because it is every munchkins worst nightmare. To have your super-monster taken out by roleplay. No matter how many numbers you grind, or what your dpr is, or whether or not you can have a pouncing AC while you are wildshaped into a flying Roc that rains summoned monsters from the skies, you can't beat roleplay.
You can't beat a crafty GM. You can't beat the fact your character is a person, and that person needs to use the bathroom, or take a bath, or sometimes just wants to feel the breeze on their naked skin. You can't beat that your character would have imposed values and commitments for all his supernatural powers. So you call such things ''unfair,'' ''contrived,'' and ''silly.'' You threaten if this happened to you, you'd walk away from the table. As if your leaving some how is the ultimate snub you can muster. As if your leaving is -actually- important.
What is important is the story. That sometimes bad things happen and you get outsmarted. Sometimes you outsmart the bad guy and laugh about it. For those of us who enjoy this hobby not as an mmo, or a battle simulation, but as a Roleplay game and can freely admit when something is broken, or doesn't make sense, or shouldn't work like that, both the above situation and the summoner nerf are reasonable and fine.
If you want to be on an even field with me in this debate, you'd better start disproving things with data or applicable anecdotes rather than just calling things silly because you couldn't think of them or haven't encountered them. Once you do that, then I'll consider responding further to you.
-Shrugs- or maybe I'm just a much more creative GM then most.
-And yes, I think I will pat myself on the back over my creativity, considering I seem to have more than anything that's been suggested so far. If you haven't had a creative GM like this before, I'm sorry to hear that.
If you care, more power to you, and 4e is that way. ---->
For more fun try playing bingo by making cards from Here and see how quickly you get a bingo in this thread!
I still don't understand why the schemes when the druid armour thing can be accomplished with a single spell... it's just stupid.
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I said no such thing. What I said was a GM who ignores the options that were put out to make martial classes stronger and then complains that martial classes are not strong enough is a being silly. And that I feel pity for a player stuck with such a GM, but it's a problem that player has to solve, by voting with their feet.
Why are they being silly. If the system has flaws it's the fault of the system. Should DMs use other options that enhance s Fighter at the table yes. They sure as hell are not forced to. The Fighter by RAW could have been so much more IMO. Saying their nothing wrong because "options" just highlight the flaws even more. Telling me that I should be taking other archetypes to compensate. Use 3pp. Hope the DMs allows it. Again does nothing to sell me the class. I have enough work to do as a DM. It's not my job to fix the flaws of a rpg.
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I still don't understand why the schemes when the druid armour thing can be accomplished with a single spell... it's just stupid.
I think it would just be easier to take the chain shirt and beat the druid to death with it.
I still don't understand why the schemes when the druid armour thing can be accomplished with a single spell... it's just stupid.I think it would just be easier to take the chain shirt and beat the druid to death with it.
It'd certainly be more reliable...