Unsummoner rant thread

[Azten]

Still waiting for that much locked down and weakened Unchained Wizard.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Azten wrote:

Still waiting for that much locked down and weakened Unchained Wizard.

In the case of the wizard - it's not the class - it's the spell list. My theory is that the worst of them were accumulated over decades worth of Deus Ex Machina spells which were originally meant to be BBEG use only.

[LazarX]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Azten wrote:

Still waiting for that much locked down and weakened Unchained Wizard.

In the case of the wizard - it's not the class - it's the spell list. My theory is that the worst of them were accumulated over decades worth of Deus Ex Machina spells which were originally meant to be BBEG use only.

Pretty much this. the Wizard CLASS as it is is not the problem it's the various spells which are the munchkin landmines, the simulacra family, the polymorph family, astral projection shennanigans, blood money, and the wish/miracle group. If you want to take down casters a bit more... remove all of the magic crafting feats from the game, or at the very least be extremely strict on them.

[HFTyrone]

LazarX wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Azten wrote:

Still waiting for that much locked down and weakened Unchained Wizard.

In the case of the wizard - it's not the class - it's the spell list. My theory is that the worst of them were accumulated over decades worth of Deus Ex Machina spells which were originally meant to be BBEG use only.

Pretty much this. the Wizard CLASS as it is is not the problem it's the various spells which are the munchkin landmines, the simulacra family, the polymorph family, astral projection shennanigans, blood money, and the wish/miracle group. If you want to take down casters a bit more... remove all of the magic crafting feats from the game, or at the very least be extremely strict on them.

Pretty much. The spell list is by far the biggest issue, with multiple spells invalidating some or all of other classes usefulness altogether. The problem I see with making an "unchained" wizard is that it would fall into the same pitfall trap the unchained summoner did.

The issue with the summoner wasn't really the eidolon itself in my experience. It was the absolutely bananas action economy and the Summon Monster ability. I feel like the Synthesist archetype does a better job of alleviating this than the unsummoner, save for that the Synthesist was somewhat poorly worded and left a couple of confusing gaps.

[Natan Linggod 327]

Redjack_rose wrote:

..Stuff..

Possibly I'm not getting your point but it seems to me you're saying the UnSummoner is fine because you can houserule it?

I would take that as a sign that it's NOT fine.

I like the changes to spells but I find the locked in alignment/form for eidolons needlessly restrictive.

[Redjack_rose]

Natan, I'm saying the Unchained summoner, over all is a decent improvement over the old summoner. A little more balanced, considering most other class with a ''pet'' has restrictions/archetypes on the pet, need for handle animal checks, etc...

For those who need a little more ''flexibility'' because they have a really neat idea that just absolutely can't be done with some of the restrictions, that's what talking to your GM is for. This is a statement I'd make for just about any class.

As an example, I'm playing a golem-crafting cleric of Brigh who is kind of a mad scientist... a common thing among her ''faithful.'' I talked to my GM and he agreed Brigh's clerics would likely go off intelligence, which helps with the golem crafting and skills I needed. Does this mean the cleric isn't a fine class?

Of course it doesn't. That is my point.

[Natan Linggod 327]

Ah I see.

I will have to respectfully disagree then.

The UnSumm gave up too much flexibility imo, for too little return.

Roughly half the eidolon/summoner backstory/builds I have don't work under the new eidolon rules. So I think I'll stick to the old version where possible.

[Endoralis]

So are you saying the other pet classes, including the big poster child Druid, were fine in comparison?

If so that is being disingenuous. The reason being that comparatively it and the Summoner had real similar areas of expertise. However the Druid has Divine Spells and 9th level casting along with more spells.. and the Summoner had a better pet and some arcane spells ( Other spells they had to access with summons or Gate/Planar Binding )

If you say the Eidolon or Spell List was broken, the same could be said about the Druid and has been. The real reason was kneejerk reactions and legacy protection. People don't bat an eye at the Druid because its always been there, like the Wizard. However , every time something new comes in and does something similar or better in a specialized area, there is rave and rants.

Here's a fact Both Summoners and Druids have obvious selections that can wreck face with minimal effort and still do whatever they were on top of it. Druid tended towards Big Cat, Dinosaurs, Flying pet.. Summoner was Pounce Beast, Big hit Guy or Shiva-expy. This wasnt new, Druid was doing it before a long time ago. Druid had Spells like Strong Jaw and Animal Growth.. Summoner gets Haste and the Evo Surge line of spells.

The issue now is.. you can still very much do that now its just restricted behind flavor for no reason and forces things you might not care for. Druid still gets to do what it was doing. Instead the UnSummoner could have been an expansion on options and cool things you could have done with your Summoner instead of this travesty they have currently.

[Rhedyn]

Druid was and still is stronger than old summoner. The problem with the summoner is that it was unbalanced. The eidolon itself is a better martial than a fighter and it would have better defenses. The summoner itself was able to keep pace with a sorcerer.

Druids rofl stomp foes with summons, animal companions, wildshape and spells. But all they do is within expected values. Eidolon's are just a tad too strong when combo'd with arcane casting from a better list than a Magus with better action economy.

[Barathos]

Azten wrote:

Still waiting for that much locked down and weakened Unchained Wizard.

I've thought of this before. [completely untested, just an idea] My solution was to turn most of their regular spell slots into school specialty slots. Master of one school instead of being slightly better at one school and an expert and most schools.

[Redjack_rose]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Ah I see.

I will have to respectfully disagree then.

The UnSumm gave up too much flexibility imo, for too little return.

Roughly half the eidolon/summoner backstory/builds I have don't work under the new eidolon rules. So I think I'll stick to the old version where possible.

That is a valid option. Have fun!

[Endoralis]

Rhedyn wrote:

Druid was and still is stronger than old summoner. The problem with the summoner is that it was unbalanced. The eidolon itself is a better martial than a fighter and it would have better defenses. The summoner itself was able to keep pace with a sorcerer.

Druids rofl stomp foes with summons, animal companions, wildshape and spells. But all they do is within expected values. Eidolon's are just a tad too strong when combo'd with arcane casting from a better list than a Magus with better action economy.

Which is Asinine because the Druids pet was ALSO better than the Fighter and had Better defenses/attacks including more appreciable buffs. Like Atavism or Animal Growth. At no point should you compare such things to the Fighter.. the Fighter loses. The Summoner in no way keeps up with a Sorc who ALSO can have a Pet if it wants it and is going to have WAY more spells with likely a higher DC.

Summoners did not have the ability to Summon their main 1 minute SLA with the Eidolon out and didnt have the spell slots to spam the Summon spell normally.. Druids could do BOTH. And Sorcs could ALSO do both.

This mindset about 'expected values' is skewed.

[Ravingdork]

Redjack_rose wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

I agree.

Nevertheless, it's much harder (that is, requires more investment) than it should be.

Next challenge: Accomplish that again, but with the Strength increase evolution. Temporary effects don't count since they aren't part of building an eidolon.

Assuming I'm still allowed to take the half-elf/feats, this took me 3 minutes.

Eidolon Lvl 16
[12 pts, 4 extra evolution, 4 half-elf, 1 elemental= 21]
Serpentine Base;
Bite [free]
Improved Nat Armor [free]
Reach [Bite] [Free]
Tail [free]
Tail Slap [free]
Fire Immunity [free]
Immunity Sleep/Paralysis [free]
Base Speed increased by 20 [free]
Immunity Bleed/Poison/Stun/Flank [free]
Huge [10]
Ability Increase [4]
Flight [2]
Limbs x2 [4]
Claws [1]
Breath Weapon [Amulet of the Blooded, Draconic]

Total Evolution 21
Natural Attacks 4

I concede.

I just didn't want people using things like evolution surge or enlarge person to get evolutions or size increases. Making your eidolon large, than huge with enlarge person doesn't mean you have a huge eidolon. It means you have a large eidolon with a spell buff--which isn't really the same thing.

[Redjack_rose]

Endoralis

I have not seen a Druid be as unbalanced as a Summoner. This doesn't mean what you say isn't true, but from my own personal experience a summoner's eidolon capabilities far outshine most other classes [pet based or not]. The Eidolon is also played like another character. It's intelligent enough to be moved like a PC, requires no handle animal checks, etc...

So whether or not the druid needs to be toned down... maybe. Doesn't mean Summoners didn't need to be.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I 100% think the Druid is broken. I think the Hunter is a good balanced pet based Druid.

[Endoralis]

@Redjack

And that is why any analysis based on that is flawed. You say you havent seen it so clearly it isnt an issue yet from your experience it can likely be the Summoner player was simply a BETTER (More experienced) player. Or the Fighter was.. well no the Fighter is bad, but they could also have been less experienced. Other classes who would design to do the same thing WILL be better in alot of aspects but the Summoner was supposed to be the best at its niche. What you saw was that the floor for the Summoner not being low. Its pretty much impossible to make a Terrible Summoner.. which isnt a bad thing. Much Like an Inquisitor.

You have not likely seen a Druid played well or they purposely didnt do particular things.. because Druid is known to be very powerful. An animal Companion can pretty much be played like another character, it can be given int and quite possibly be SMARTER than alot of martials. It can wear items and armor and in no way restrict the druid.

So Yes it is very evident if Summoner needed to be toned down if Druids did not because that is game design, you don't kneecap one thing an call it fine when the issue has been there before and you ignore it. Thats self delusion.

[Vrog Skyreaver]

I think the Druid is broken if people ignore the built in balancing factors that the class imposes on it's pet side of things:

1) you don't get to completely control your AC. It attacks your enemies to the best of it's abilities. As a GM, I see far too many people controlling 3-5 Intelligence creatures as if they were a PC.

2) You have to have ranks in handle animal, or you don't have a pet that can do anything (and you sure as heck can't push it to do things it isn't trained to do).

Eidolons suffer from neither of these things, since you can reliably communicate with them, and they do not have animal intelligence.

[/soapbox]

[Endoralis]

1) Having above a 3 is not animal intelligence and can thus understand a language with a skill point.

2) You get a +4 bonus on such checks if for some reason you cant communicate. You gain a + 3 from the class skill and Tricks it already knows are free basically. it is doing nothing different than the standard Fighter whose int can be anywhere from 7-5.

Speak with animals and magic items/spells alleviate any communication issues and Animal Companions have a Link with the Druid. The restrictions are illusionary. Much like how a spell component pouch restricts a wizard.

[Redjack_rose]

Well, considering you actually don't have a lot of insight into my experience, it's a little hard to tell if my experience is a valid measuring stick. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I have been a PFS GM for over two years, run two full length 1-20 campaigns [with both a druid and a summoner in them], run a couple more smaller campaigns, and played about the same length. That's my pathfinder experience, I've played quite a few other rpgs for a good portion of my life. And I've run with dozens of summoners and druids.

As I stated before, doesn't that make me an expert, but I wouldn't discount my experience. I haven't tried to discount yours. If you'd like to show me a comparison of a druid pet vs. eidolon, Then we might have a discussion beyond that's more than she said, she said.

In the meantime, isn't doesn't change that the Summoner needed a tone down in comparison to other classes and the Unchained Summoner did a pretty good job of it.

Edit; Also in my experience, I have never seen GM say ''You didn't have an action to to communicate with your eidolon, so it defends you in the first round because it beat your initiative... Or anything like that. I have many times for an Eidolon.

Secondly, an Eidolon is smart enough from the get go. An AC takes investment to overcome that restriction.

[Natan Linggod 327]

Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

I think the Druid is broken if people ignore the built in balancing factors that the class imposes on it's pet side of things:

1) you don't get to completely control your AC. It attacks your enemies to the best of it's abilities. As a GM, I see far too many people controlling 3-5 Intelligence creatures as if they were a PC.

2) You have to have ranks in handle animal, or you don't have a pet that can do anything (and you sure as heck can't push it to do things it isn't trained to do).

Eidolons suffer from neither of these things, since you can reliably communicate with them, and they do not have animal intelligence.

[/soapbox]

Just a quick note on that, you don't get to completely control your Eidolon either. The eidolon can and will refuse to obey if it thinks it's being abused or asked to do something against it's ethical compass. I think this was brought up on the forums and clarified.

[Rhedyn]

Animal companions fall off very quickly. You have to really buff them for it to even stay competitive with a fighter. Druid spells are great but they aren't nearly as broken as arcane spells, which old summoner got all the good ones.

I'll put it this way. A generalist druid is about 90% effective at everything, while a summoner is playing two characters that are each 75% effective. Druid is always bringing the best 90% for the situation while the summoner is throwing it's two 75% at every situation. Unchained summoner tones it down to 50%.

[Redjack_rose]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Just a quick note on that, you don't get to completely control your Eidolon either. The eidolon can and will refuse to obey if it thinks it's being abused or asked to do something against it's ethical compass. I think this was brought up on the forums and clarified.

This is true, though rarely an issue. I'm hoping with the Unchained Summoner giving more of a definition on an ''Eidolon's moral compass'' it will come into play more often.

[Natan Linggod 327]

Redjack_rose wrote:

This is true, though rarely an issue. I'm hoping with the Unchained Summoner giving more of a definition on an ''Eidolon's moral compass'' it will come into play more often.

Given you have to have compatible alignment to the eidolon, I doubt it will come up much now anyway

[Redjack_rose]

Possibly, but there is the other part of your alignment shifts from an evil act out of alignment and your Eidolon refuses to follow you.

[Natan Linggod 327]

Which could already happen under the old version anyway. It would have been just as easy to write a small paragraph pointing that out.

I think they should have gotten rid of required alignment for summoners entirely, personally. Just let the summoner be whatever alignment. Would have made for some really interesting RP interplay between two beings of opposed alignment.

[Endoralis]

Redjack_rose wrote:

Well, considering you actually don't have a lot of insight into my experience, it's a little hard to tell if my experience is a valid measuring stick. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I have been a PFS GM for over two years, run two full length 1-20 campaigns [with both a druid and a summoner in them], run a couple more smaller campaigns, and played about the same length. That's my pathfinder experience, I've played quite a few other rpgs for a good portion of my life. And I've run with dozens of summoners and druids.

As I stated before, doesn't that make me an expert, but I wouldn't discount my experience. I haven't tried to discount yours. If you'd like to show me a comparison of a druid pet vs. eidolon, Then we might have a discussion beyond that's more than she said, she said.

In the meantime, isn't doesn't change that the Summoner needed a tone down in comparison to other classes and the Unchained Summoner did a pretty good job of it.

Edit; Also in my experience, I have never seen GM say ''You didn't have an action to to communicate with your eidolon, so it defends you in the first round because it beat your initiative... Or anything like that. I have many times for an Eidolon.

Secondly, an Eidolon is smart enough from the get go. An AC takes investment to overcome that restriction.

I respect that, but going from your response is all I could base my opinion on and as such learning more of your experience has solidified a few of them. I am not actually quantifying your time based on years as one person can play a game for 5 years and another for 3 days and have better understanding than the other.

I still disagree on the idea that Un Summoner toned down anything but choice. Making a murder machine is STILL easy. The adjustment to pounce was correct but the restrictions to other things are just unnecessary. I will ask did ANY of your Druids use the above AC's? Did they Use Wildshape to also become those animals or turn into some sort of Bird and rain down summons? Buff their Pet and send them in?

[David knott 242]

The difference is that with the old summoner, the alignments of the summoner and the eidolon always matched -- although that does raise interesting questions about exactly what happens when one or the other undergoes a sudden magical alignment change. Our group generally went with the idea that the continual mental communication between them would force them to agree somehow.

With the unchained summoner, the eidolon's alignment is fixed and cannot change, while the summoner can change his aligment as he wishes, with the drawback that his eidolon will refuse to answer his summons if the summoner's alignment becomes too incompatible with that of his eidolon.

[Endoralis]

Rhedyn wrote:

Animal companions fall off very quickly. You have to really buff them for it to even stay competitive with a fighter. Druid spells are great but they aren't nearly as broken as arcane spells, which old summoner got all the good ones.

I'll put it this way. A generalist druid is about 90% effective at everything, while a summoner is playing two characters that are each 75% effective. Druid is always bringing the best 90% for the situation while the summoner is throwing it's two 75% at every situation. Unchained summoner tones it down to 50%.

This opinion completely discounts the AC which unless copious amounts of loot are passed out or the Fighter is an Archer, just isnt true. Any given AC being competent? Sure some take work. The ones I listed? Not really.. as they often get pounce or One big attack or some ability rider. The Pets naturally get Str/Dex bumps and can benefit from cheap Magic items while being buffed for anything else. This is on top of the Druid.

A attack Routine of Claw Claw Claw Claw Bite all at Full Str + Riders generally will be about the same or more than a Fighter until around 12th level or so when the Fighter starts getting better equipment and has More HD to balance out the buffs.

[Redjack_rose]

@Endoralis

Big Cat and Dinosaur... don't think I remember a flying pet. My latest druid player was a LvL 20 summoning focused Lion Shaman with a cat companion... the whole she-bang.

As for my last summoner... that was a multi-limbed badger-shaped eidolon with pounce and fly among other things.

Both had a tendency to buff themselves and pets and send them in, With my druid summoning cats as a standard action with their kitty.

On another note;
I definitelty think pounce being a 3 point was good. It is harder now to make a kill machine. Many of the Unchained Eidolon abilities got put on more defensive/utility things [some super cool ones, like lay on hands]. 1st levels can't even buy pounce. You could conceivable get it at level 2 with no extra evolution attacks. Their points have been cut by about a third.

[Redjack_rose]

By the way, quick comparison of the old Eidolon to AC.

Lvl20 AC Eidolon

HD 16 D8 15 D10
Bab +12 +15
F/R/W +10/+10/+5 +9/+9/+5
Skills 16 60
Feats 8 8
Nat Armor +12 +16
Str/Dex +6 +8

Eidolons also have a max attacks of 7 at this level, while the big cat seems to still have 3 [plus rakes].

This doesn't include the goodies like the Eidolons 26 evo points of purely customizable goodness or the Summoner being able to sacrifice HP to keep the Eidolon in combat [or the summon eidolon spell that works even if the Eidolon has been killed recently].

[memorax]

Both Druid and Conjurers. The second who specializes in summoning elemental can summon a nearly unstoppable army at mud to high levels. With no protection from neutrality spell. Good luck. It's one how those who say the old Summoner is too powerful either don't notice or pretend not to notice how much stronger those classes can be. Take Augument summoning and to
Me at least both if not the Conjurers are even worse than a summoner

[Pixie, the Leng Queen]

In the AC vs Eidolon discussion I think people are missing is tha the AC can wear items. In order for the Eidolon to wear items, it has to use the Summoners slot.

So you can easily have heavy armor and amulets of natural attacks ect, on your companion.

[M1k31]

How does an AC wear armor made for humanoids?... or are you talking about something specially crafted for animals using stats similar to armor for humanoids?

[Redjack_rose]

AC's though have limited slots depending in body type unless feats are invested. They also don't have a +8 nat armor for the low cost of 4 evolution points.

@Memorax

Unless I'm missing something, the wizard/druid mentioned do so with round casts. With an Eidolon, the Summoner can still do the same with round casts. Should their Eidolon fall [unlikely with life link] they can then do so with Standard Actions.... and they can summon their Eidolon once more with the Summon Eidolon spell. What's your point?

[Endoralis]

The AC having limited spots was something they added LATER and even then to my knowledge thats ONLY PFS.

AC's also got stat buffs as they grew generally in size so on avg the Eidolon had maybe a + 3 bonus to hit above the AC. Again you are saying the Eidolon was better... which was the point it had more versatility but they both wrecked face. The Druid had better buffs and better spells and could ALSO wreck face.

[Pixie, the Leng Queen]

Not that hard getting Huge sized Eidolon as well... 1 level dip into Mammoth Rider gets you huge size.

Oh and by 20th level an AC gets a +12 Nat armor buff... this not including things from spells and.items and such.

They also get a +6 str and con before accounting level boosts and size and stuff...

Hunters show that ACs can get pretty broken pretty fast... oh and you can easily get your AC evem higher level than yourself,,,

[My Self]

Can't a half-elf, elf, or aasimar lunar Oracle get a 1.5x level animal companion?

[Pixie, the Leng Queen]

That or you can VMC into oracle to get the AC and have it stack with Hunter.

Or VMC into druid.

[Redjack_rose]

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Not that hard getting Huge sized Eidolon as well... 1 level dip into Mammoth Rider gets you huge size.

Oh and by 20th level an AC gets a +12 Nat armor buff... this not including things from spells and.items and such.

They also get a +6 str and con before accounting level boosts and size and stuff...

Hunters show that ACs can get pretty broken pretty fast... oh and you can easily get your AC evem higher level than yourself,,,

Did you miss the comparison where Eidolons receive a +16 nat armor... or the +8 str/dex before size. Not to mention they can apply up to a +8 on any stat from evolution? [With huge, this becomes a +32 str before it even touches a magic item]

How about that you can get a huge eidolon without a level dip?

How about the fact the Eidolon's max natural attacks [not including those granted by magic items] is 7, while many AC's are lucky to manage 5.

Not to mention their HD is a D10 and their Bab is higher.

You can not tell me that the Eidolon, with it's flexibility in construction, generally better statistics, shared HP pool is some how out shone by an AC! Now who's being delusional?

I don't care if a druid has better spells or wildshape. Maybe the Druid needs to be toned down in those areas, maybe it doesn't. I really don't care. I don't even care if the Eidolon is the best ''pet.'' Let it be! The issue isn't making the Eidolon equal to the AC...

The issue is the margin of ''best.'' The issue is if the Eidolon, a damn pet, trivializes any martial in my groups. Spoiler alert, it does. Don't feed me that line about ''well maybe they don't have good system mastery!'' Their system mastery is irrelevant! The old summoner didn't even have to -try- to make his pet better than the others.

/end rant

[Endoralis]

You arent showing any evidence that an AC isnt doing the exact same thing though, you are just saying the Eidolon is 'Stronger' Which overall it is but at a price. Even your examples are " They can choose to do X" And similarly we have told you a Druid can " Choose to do X ". Trivializing any martial is also subjective because SOME CLASSES are simply easy to do that with, Fighters, Monks and Rogues being among them. With the others, a badly built Paladin, Barbarian, Cavalier etc could too.

That Particular Eidolon who has a +32 in Str would have used all 26 of his points to do so and have NO Other abilities or attacks so no (Unless they are both half/Elf AND spends a Feat on extra Evo every time and those 10 would give would have to be used on 2 limbs twice claws 3 times and Pounce ofcourse.. leaving a whole 2 for whatever which is alot more system mastery than advertised), they arent the same as an AC Which with other sources have shown could be just as bad. But this is a Rant thread so it is appropriate.

Quote:

Did you miss the comparison where Eidolons receive a +16 nat armor... or the +8 str/dex before size. Not to mention they can apply up to a +8 on any stat from evolution? [With huge, this becomes a +32 str before it even touches a magic item]

How about that you can get a huge eidolon without a level dip?

How about the fact the Eidolon's max natural attacks [not including those granted by magic items] is 7, while many AC's are lucky to manage 5.

Not to mention their HD is a D10 and their Bab is higher.

You can not tell me that the Eidolon, with it's flexibility in construction, generally better statistics, shared HP pool is some how out shone by an AC! Now who's being delusional?

I've already gotten the first

So the +16 Nat compared to +12, Most AC's on advancement simply get the same or more to their Natural armor anyway.. or start of with more Natural Armor. The same for Stat increases to Str or Dex pre Magic Items.

The AC can indeed get big generally with a Dip but we already went over buffs so thats moot.

AC's can wear Magic Items.. some of these have the ability to give natural attacks which are not capped, unlike the Eidolon.

Eidolons have Higher bab this is true and Higher HD but because of AVgs that comes out to 1 more per HP.. they only beat the AC by about 10Hp... assuming they have the same Con, which a good portion of the AC's have more.

As for the rest... AC's are generally picked for what they can do or Thematics, at the same time a Druid can raise thier companion from the dead with a snap of his fingers and flood the scene with Summons as well and actually has the slots to do so.. while having a better stat to cast off of. AC's arent as weak as you think and any addition of the Druid to said AC's compared to the Summoner is not an easy comparison.

[Nicos]

memorax wrote:

Both Druid and Conjurers. The second who specializes in summoning elemental can summon a nearly unstoppable army at mud to high levels. With no protection from neutrality spell. Good luck. It's one how those who say the old Summoner is too powerful either don't notice or pretend not to notice how much stronger those classes can be. Take Augument summoning and to

Me at least both if not the Conjurers are even worse than a summoner

That Some other classes are more broken doesn't justify the brokenness of the summoner. I personally prefer to deal with the least amount possible of disruptive stuffs.

[Rhedyn]

The issue is that druid are powerful but they aren't broken. No individual thing they have is that strong. Their spell list falls between clerics and wizard in terms of restoration/heal/buff and utility/blasting, best at neither. Wildshape is a great buff but not enough utility for a wizard or enough martial strength to surpass martials. The AC is nice, but they dish out maybe ideal crb rogue DPR. It's when these features combo together that the druid becomes very strong.

Summoner meanwhile has busted 6th casting and the eidolon could give good martials a run for their money. The best 6th caster combined with the best martial. Lose the eidolon (say it dies) and the SLA puts you on par with a sorcerer (one top level spell out at a time plus other spells).

I put summoner in tier two but druid in tier one. Certain classes like summoner, barbarian, and paladin manage to break the tier tend but only by having numbers that are unbalanced and distort encounters.

[Redjack_rose]

@Endoralis

I thought that was the point I was trying to make, that the Eidolon is not only stronger but a considerable amount stronger. And while I realize there are some sub-par classes that are easier to trivialize, I fully believe other classes should be brought down to their level, mostly because monsters were designed at their level. Let's just say I fully agree the Druid needs adjustment; it doesn't mean the Summoner didn't. Rome wasn't built in a day.

An Eidolon's max attacks represents the amount of attack evolutions they can take, not the number of attacks they can actually bring to the table. They can take the same magic items to gain additional attacks.

When looking at the AC armor/advancement, they start with maybe 2-3 extra nat armor, and gain another usually another 2-3 [at the expense of other stat adjustments. Keep in mind the Eidolon can take a 1 pts evolution to stay on par, and top their nat armor still.

Their stat adjustments at 4th/7th are from their size being modified, which has no advantage over the Eidolon's greater stat adjustment + size boost.

AC's are also limited to what magic item slots they can take based on body type.

An AC must either invest a point in intelligence or use magic items to not only function similar to an Eidolon, but also to take feats beyond the basic feat tree.

Eidolon's HP, while not that much greater than an AC and you are correct, some AC's start with better Con, also benefit from the summoner's Hp pool. They are harder to kill, and even if they are killed can be summoned back via Summon Eidolon. They have no raise cost, unlike raising a companion.

I did not call AC's weak, I called them weaker than Eidolons. Is it a hard comparison to make between the full Druid with AC and the Summoner with Eidolon. Sure. But when you compare Pet to Pet, the comparison is easy, and the Eidolon wins.

As I said, should they nerf druids... sure, don't care, not relevant. I'm just happy Eidolons got nerfed.

[Lukas Stariha]

Redjack_rose wrote:

I did not call AC's weak, I called them weaker than Eidolons. Is it a hard comparison to make between the full Druid with AC and the Summoner with Eidolon. Sure. But when you compare Pet to Pet, the comparison is easy, and the Eidolon wins.

I think this is far easier to see in the other classes with access to AC's that are not Druid. The Hunter and Ranger along with the Inquisitor, Barbarian, Cavalier and Brawler options are nowhere near as powerful as the APG Summoner, in terms of companion or anything on par with its spell list or SLA. The only classes with access to AC's that are comparable to the Druid (and arguably superior) are the Cleric Domains and Sorceror Bloodlines that give them, due to their amazing spell lists.

[Pixie, the Leng Queen]

The hunter can actually make a rather viscous beat stick...

The big OP thing of the summoner was the SM SLA. Which is why yhe Master Summoner was one of the most OP archetypes. Between slowing down the game amd breaking action economy, the SM SLA was dumb.

The best comparison to the Summoner would be the hunter. And the hunter is very solid. NOw granted, the summoner was stronger, but that is more due to SM and his poorly built spell list. Without his rediculous summon monster ability and utilizimg the unchained spell list, the APG summoner is not that much betyer than the Hunter, if at all.

[strayshift]

The summoner, even nerfed, is still too powerful. It should never have passed basic development but hey, power creep affects all games. Why?

Better HP, armour and more spells than a wizard or a sorcerer (when the boosted summon monster ability is factored in) a stupidly good spell list (even nerfed) and then there is the Eidolon after that. I'd strip the class of the eidolon or the summon ability then it would be better balanced.

[HFTyrone]

strayshift wrote:

The summoner, even nerfed, is still too powerful. It should never have passed basic development but hey, power creep affects all games. Why?

Better HP, armour and more spells than a wizard or a sorcerer (when the boosted summon monster ability is factored in) a stupidly good spell list (even nerfed) and then there is the Eidolon after that. I'd strip the class of the eidolon or the summon ability then it would be better balanced.

The "nerfed" summoner didn't actually address the problem with the class, it just made eidolons more restrictive and alignment-dependent (because we *really* needed more of that). The Summon Monster SLA is way too good though, it'd be much better if the unchained summoner traded that ability out for better non-offense evolution options and a slightly adjusted action economy.

There's a sad irony in the fact that the Unchained Summoner accomplished the exact opposite of its namesake though.

[Milo v3]

I don't really understand why so much hate is shoved onto an optional rule.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Milo v3 wrote:

I don't really understand why so much hate is shoved onto an optional rule.

Because... internet!

[Redjack_rose]

Milo v3 wrote:

I don't really understand why so much hate is shoved onto an optional rule.

At the risk of sounding b*+&~y, I think it has a lot to do with the fact PFS made it non-optional, and a lot of GM's have followed suit because it is a more balanced version of the class. However, that makes it a nerf, and many people vehemently hate nerfs to things they like.

For those serious about ''creativity,'' the unchained summoner made things a little more difficult and it can be annoying. Now one must invest feats/races/bonuses/magic items into to eidolon to make it fit a creative theme.

For everyone else that played the summoner for the roflstomp murder machine pouncing multi-armed monster, the optional class is even more hated because they can't make one with their eye closed at 2nd level any more.