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I think the title is fairly self-explanatory. As my players who are likely reading this thread right now can tell you, the warpriest in my game is currently wrestling a huge black dragon. He's moving to pin her soon, and assuming he succeeds, is that dragon able to breathe acid on anyone?
Naturally, the visual's a bit funny—this ordinary two-armed human is somehow preventing a dragon ten times his size from breathing, biting, clawing, squirming, beating her wings, and moving her tail—but that's up to him to flavor. I'm asking what the rules say. Does it remain as cut-and-dry as ever?
Being Pinned does able verbal components, so one could speculate that a breath weapon requires roughly the same movements. On the other hand, one could also speculate that using a breath weapon requires finer-tuned aiming than mere speech.
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A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
So. It doesn't appear that RAW covers this, because the interpretation of "limited in actions in can take" is going to vary from player to player.
Personally I would allow it, but with the house rule that unless the grappler is specifically holding their head a certain direction, the creature's head is facing a random direction and that's the direction the breath weapon will go.
But that's just my opinion and how I would house rule it, not RAW by any means. If somebody else can find some RAW that proves me wrong, I would be happy to know about it, because this is a very interesting situation.
Bump.
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Breath weapons are Supernatural Abilities, so there is no spell casting or components required it and pinned allows "A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions" so I would say yes. If the Dragon can roar he can breath. Also remember being pinned is not consider "Helpless". So I would allow it
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Nothing in the Pinned condition looks like it could stop a breath weapon. Not by RAW and not by "common sense". If you can exhale, you can use a breath weapon.
Yeah, Pinned doesn't stop Su or Ex abilities.
Just make sure she breathes away from Farrukh. =p
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As per the rules concerning dragon breath weapons.
Breath Weapon (Su): Using a breath weapon is a standard action. A dragon can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, even if it possesses more than one breath weapon. A breath weapon always starts at an intersection adjacent to the dragon and extends in a direction of the dragon's choice. Breath weapons come in two shapes, lines and cones, whose areas vary with the dragon's size. If a breath weapon deals damage, those caught in the area can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage. The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 dragon's HD + dragon's Con modifier. Saves against various breath weapons use the same DC; the type of saving throw is noted in the variety descriptions. A dragon can use its breath weapon when it is grappling or being grappled.
And as stated above pinned is just a more severe version of grapple.
My question is how is your war priest even grappling a huge dragon and expecting to succeed each round to maintain the grapple. Huge dragons from what I have seen in the bestiaries usually have a CMD of around 40 give or take. Even succeeding once in a grappling check with one would be lucky.
I always took Pinned to basically mean "This condition is very limiting. You can't do anything not specified here."
Hence it not mentioning attacks—it doesn't need to. Their very exclusion is evidence enough.
I always took Pinned to basically mean "This condition is very limiting. You can't do anything not specified here."
Hence it not mentioning attacks—it doesn't need to. Their very exclusion is evidence enough.
You might be right if this were a general situation of being pinned, but again the rules covering a dragon's breath weapon says it can use it when it is grappling and being grappled. And pinned is just another condition of being grappled, just more severe. This is where a specific rule trumps the general rule. Other than this the dragon is still subject to the general rules of being pinned. Again it is your call though, you are the GM.
I'd have the dragon using its breath weapon on the warpriest. ..There is an argument that he can't use reflex saves and still maintain the pin...
Rule of Cool: pinning a dragon is analogous to gator wrestling, and the Warpriest has the dragon's mouth shut. Pinning a dragon is pretty awesome, after all. You might do something like a reduced range, reduced damage, or lower save DC as the dragon can't aim it well.
I'd have the dragon using its breath weapon on the warpriest. ..There is an argument that he can't use reflex saves and still maintain the pin...
Too bad that argument makes no sense. Even Paralyzed creatures are allowed a Saving Throw.
However, since the Warpriest is in a Grapple, he still receives the Grappled condition. He suffers a -4 penalty to Dexterity for being Grappled, so he does get a penalty to the Saving Throw. But that doesn't mean he can't make a Saving Throw.
Adding on to the Paralyzed subject, Paralyzed Creatures are treated as having a Dexterity of 0, meaning they lose any Dexterity Bonuses they possess, and suffer a -5 Penalty to their Dexterity modifier. That's a huge disadvantage, one that will likely result in failure. But that doesn't mean he can't make a Saving Throw.
Naturally, the visual's a bit funny—this ordinary two-armed human is somehow preventing a dragon ten times his size from breathing, biting, clawing, squirming, beating her wings, and moving her tail—but that's up to him to flavor. I'm asking what the rules say. Does it remain as cut-and-dry as ever?
I hold this exact scenario to be a system flaw. It should not be possible. Grapple, sure. Pin? No way. Maybe pin part of the dragon (pick an appendage and pin that one but the rest can move) But that's a different argument and clearly not RAW - I'm just saying that I think it should be.
I note you said "from breathing" (and some other things, but breathing is the one I wonder about). Does this mean the monk is using Chokehold or Kraken Throttle or some other thing that can suffocate the dragon? If so, then it stands to reason that a dragon that cannot breathe cannot use a breath weapon. It's not explicitly stated, but since a creature that cannot breathe has no breath, they should also have no breath weapon.
I admit, there is no RAW for that, either. Probably another system flaw. A GM has to make a leap from "unable to breathe" to "unable to use a Breath Weapon (Su)".
If the monk is not using a trick to prevent breathing then he really has no RAW way to prevent a breath weapon, and the dragon can even aim it where it wants to (there is no RAW about the pin causing the dragon to have no aim for his breath weapon).
I find this getting more interesting with the few feats that were just now mentioned. But the one thing to keep in mind consequently is both feats can only be used on an opponent up to one size category larger than the grappler. That means that in order to use these feats on a huge dragon the grappler would have to be large. And without having more facts and details about how the war priest and huge dragon got into a grapple to begin with, any advice given is just pure speculation. I still would like to know how it was achieved, bet it would make an interesting tale.
The pinned condition is not very comprehensive, but these three lines help place some landmarks:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions...
...A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check...
...A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions...
Line one establishes that pinned is a bad place to be, your actions are limited, and that we have just stepped into a permissive rule-set territory.
Line two reinforces that actions are limited, then outlines some permitted actions that are physical actions.
Line three then says that verbal and mental actions are fair game with a few caveats on concentration checks.
Taken as a whole, this means you can take verbal and mental actions but can only take specifically permitted physical actions.
Now, even though a breath weapon comes from the mouth, it is unquestionably a physical attack and in no way wholly verbal or mental (actions that get a free pass when pinned).
Cinematically: The enraged dragon draws a deep breath to turn the impetus warpriest into cinders, but the dragon has been pinned and contorted into a near disabled position; when he goes to unleash the fiery doom, he can not clear his airways and align the fire-death gland. The breath of 'makes PCs ashes' sputters out harmlessly. Or the mouth is already under control and not biting anyone, the breath harmlessly scorches the floor, or sky.
As for all the feats mentioned; yes, if a feat allows you to do something, that suggests you can not do it without a feat (can I take a penalty to hit for increased damage?), but all those feats are combo packages that wrap up many unique abilities and none of them say: prevents a breath weapon when pinning.
The pinned condition is not very comprehensive, but these three lines help place some landmarks:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions...
...A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check...
...A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions...
Line one establishes that pinned is a bad place to be, your actions are limited, and that we have just stepped into a permissive rule-set territory.
Line two reinforces that actions are limited, then outlines some permitted actions that are physical actions.
Line three then says that verbal and mental actions are fair game with a few caveats on concentration checks.
Taken as a whole, this means you can take verbal and mental actions but can only take specifically permitted physical actions.
Now, even though a breath weapon comes from the mouth, it is unquestionably a physical attack and in no way wholly verbal or mental (actions that get a free pass when pinned).
Cinematically: The enraged dragon draws a deep breath to turn the impetus warpriest into cinders, but the dragon has been pinned and contorted into a near disabled position; when he goes to unleash the fiery doom, he can not clear his airways and align the fire-death gland. The breath of 'makes PCs ashes' sputters out harmlessly. Or the mouth is already under control and not biting anyone, the breath harmlessly scorches the floor, or sky.
As for all the feats mentioned; yes, if a feat allows you to do something, that suggests you can not do it without a feat (can I take a penalty to hit for increased damage?), but all those feats are combo packages that wrap up many unique abilities and none of them say: prevents a breath weapon when pinning.
Sorry dude, breath weapons are not considered a physical attack. They are considered a supernatural ability and to use them is a standard action.
Breath Weapon (Su)
Some creatures can exhale a cone, line, or cloud of energy or other magical effects. A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy. Breath weapons allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + 1/2 breathing creature's racial HD + breathing creature's Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted. Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save. Each breath weapon also includes notes on how often it can be used, even if this number is limited in times per day.
Format: breath weapon (60-ft. cone, 8d6 fire damage, Reflex DC 20 for half, usable every 1d4 rounds); Location: Special Attacks; if the breath is more complicated than damage, it also appears under Special Abilities with its own entry.
Pinned does not stop Su or Ex abilities.
In this case refer to above posts when it comes to using a dragon's breath weapon when being pinned.
swordfalcon; sorry, I meant to remove every mention of physical attack and replace it with action, that made it through the edit.
The pinned condition allows grapple checks, escape artist check, verbal actions, and mental actions (such a small list that they mentioned twice that there are only a few action that can be taken). The breath weapon does not fit in those categories.
The pinned condition does not comment on (Su) abilities the same way it does not mention attacks with one-handed or two-handed weapons, they are covered in the blanket statements of the first two lines. Of course there are many purely mental, or verbal (Su) abilities that could be used while pinned.
Even if the dragon could breathe, it couldn't turn its head if its head was pinned to aim the breath weapon.
There's no rules for pinning specific body parts. Pin is binary, either PIN or NOT PIN. Similarly, there's no rule for facing, so there's no mechanic to determine which direction the breath weapon is aimed (the dragon can't aim it.)
RAW, pin is permissive and it would be a hard sell to describe a breath weapon as a mental ability since using it involves moving the head.
Finally, pinned and grappled are completely different conditions, despite being related, just as panicked and shaken are not the same condition.
Rule of Cool: pinning a dragon is analogous to gator wrestling, and the Warpriest has the dragon's mouth shut. Pinning a dragon is pretty awesome, after all. You might do something like a reduced range, reduced damage, or lower save DC as the dragon can't aim it well.
On the other hand, shutting down a climactic battle by having one member tie the dragon up and everyone else shoot at it isn't exactly "Rule of Cool", is it? ;P
swordfalcon; sorry, I meant to remove every mention of physical attack and replace it with action, that made it through the edit.
The pinned condition allows grapple checks, escape artist check, verbal actions, and mental actions (such a small list that they mentioned twice that there are only a few action that can be taken). The breath weapon does not fit in those categories.
The pinned condition does not comment on (Su) abilities the same way it does not mention attacks with one-handed or two-handed weapons, they are covered in the blanket statements of the first two lines. Of course there are many purely mental, or verbal (Su) abilities that could be used while pinned.
What you said is true, but keep in mind there is always exceptions to the general rules. Just going by the rules in a dragon's breath weapon ability, it is allowed to use it during a grapple. The only headache I see here is how is the conditioned pinned being viewed as. Is pinned considered another version or extension of the "grappled" condition, just more severe or limiting version of it. Or is it considered a separate condition altogether, grappled is grappled and pinned is pinned. I know they do not stack. I could honestly see it being argued both ways.
Sorry dude, breath weapons are not considered a physical attack. They are considered a supernatural ability and to use them is a...
"Sorry dude", Su/Ex/whatever has no correlation to "physicality" whatsoever, there are both physical and wholly mental Su abilities, there are both physical and wholly mental Ex abilities... Pinned simply doesn't care what type of Su/Ex/etc classification any ability/action is, so there's no reason to bring that into the discussion.
Look, the RAW here is totally borked, it doesn't ACTUALLY state you can no actions EXCEPT the specific ones/classes of actions mentioned, even though people seem to agree that is largely it's intent. I don't know why Paizo hasn't fixed that in HOW MANY CRB editions. But anyhow, when the RAW is so borked, it's a bit less than legitimate to insist on appying the RAW harshly (when not applying every aspect harshly). If we open the door to non-RAW application because of "reasonability" interpretation, then that swings both ways.
(the RAW is also borked in other ways, e.g. Pinned says it is held or bound. Helpless condition is said to apply to held or bound creatures. Is Pinned Helpless?
Pinned definitely seems to qualify as Helpless, yet speaks of being denied your DEX bonus (which is superfluous when your DEX is 0).
Paralyzed explicitly says it is also Helpless, yet re-iterates the STR and DEX = 0 rule (without being phrased as a re-iteration).
Helpless has wording separately allowing Sneak Attack, negating need for "Denied DEX" wording... And if you consider that wording necessary (i.e. not wholly superfluous),
that leaves Paralyzed-Helpless lacking such wording, and thus not enabling "Denied DEX" contingent actions effects (beyond Sneak Attack)!
And then Helpless says you treat your STR and DEX as 0... Well if your STR is 0 you are unconscious, making most of other details superfluous. Do we ignore that effect of STR=0? Hm...
Clearly those closely tied conditions could be re-organized to either have clear inheritance of effects with consistent verbiage indicating such,
and/or consistently re-iterate inherited rules with consistent verbiage effecting that, and all consequences of rules thought out, e.g. Helpless.)
I don't see strong RAW rationale for allowing Breath Weapons, but by the same token, there isn't strong RAW classification for what Breath Weapons are, physical or wholly mental. I would probably think they are somewhat physical, but then there isn't strong RAW excluding physical actions for Pinned... Seemingly SOME physical actions are allowed both by Pinned AND Paralyzed, since neither affect your breathing/cause you to suffocate (because you need a special Feat Chokehold to do that to a Pinned enemy). Breathing involves some physicality, clearly. How much more physicality does Breath Weapon have? Who knows? We can't quite know from RAW (because it's borked), but it seems PLAUSIBLE that Paralyzed is supposed to have a higher restriction of physicality than Pinned is (e.g. it's not clear if a Pinned character could still Hover with Wings, while that explicitly doesn't work with Paralyzed) I am inclined to say that you CAN use Breath Weapons while Pinned, even if you can't while Paralyzed (although I'm not certain the rules are meant to restrict Breath Weapon while Paralyzed, I think Pinned has an "extra opportunity" to be allowed to do so, vs. Paralyzed).
I hit FAQ.
Even if the dragon could breathe, it couldn't turn its head if its head was pinned to aim the breath weapon.
There's no rules for pinning specific body parts. Pin is binary, either PIN or NOT PIN. Similarly, there's no rule for facing, so there's no mechanic to determine which direction the breath weapon is aimed (the dragon can't aim it.)
RAW, pin is permissive and it would be a hard sell to describe a breath weapon as a mental ability since using it involves moving the head.
Finally, pinned and grappled are completely different conditions, despite being related, just as panicked and shaken are not the same condition.
Your totally right both panicked and shaken being separate conditions, but a paladin still has immunity to both thanks to his aura of courage because they are both considered "fear effects."
Now the question here is the "pinned" condition still considered part of the grapple combat maneuver tree. If so, then the dragon is allowed it's breath weapon attack per the rules it has when grappling.
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I'd add a corollary question, can you use a breath weapon when in an icy prison spell? Spell states: "it is helpless, but can still breathe", emphasis mine. I'd say a breath weapon is a type of breathing, but one of my players wasn't thrilled with that interpretation.
This FAQ seems to support that "pinned" is still considered a "grappled condition" although more severe.
Pin: A creature grappling an opponent typically needs to make two combat maneuver checks to pin someone (one to grapple, the next to pin). If you're pinned, do you also need to succeed at two checks to escape, one for the grab and the other for the pin?
No. When a creature is pinned, it gains this more severe version of the grappled condition, and the two conditions do not stack (as described in the pinned condition). While this means that you do not take both the penalties for both the grapple and the pin, this also means that pinned supersedes the grapple condition; it does not compound it. For this reason you only need to succeed one combat maneuver or Escape Artist check to escape either a grapple or a pin.
Using a breath weapon is done by exhaling. ("Some creatures can exhale a cone, line, or cloud of energy or other magical effects.")
Exhaling is part of breathing. Breathing is still allowed when pinned without the use of special feats that choke the opponent.
Unless you've got your arms down a dragon's throat, squeezing its "breath weapon organ", I don't see how pinning a dragon would stop its breath weapon.
OK, and you can also breathe normally while Paralyzed.
I think it deserves a FAQ/Errata,
certainly given that the RAW around Pinned could be cleaned up indepenent of this issue.
My entire side of the argument hinges on that dragons are allowed to use their breath weapons during a grapple as stated in the rules of their breath attack and proving that pinned is still considered part of the grappled condition. Which seems to be indicated on the points I referenced in earlier posts from rules and the FAQs. If it weren't for this my argument when not hold up.
I have seen a lot of people trying to justify on both sides of the argument by using scenarios where the dragon can and cannot use it's breath weapon and trying to use that as way to apply their version of the rules. Like saying since a dragon can breath it therefore can use its breathe weapon or since it is pinned it cannot aim therefore using is breath weapon is useless. I find this kind of logic very dangerous. I will agree that sometimes there are gray areas and that is up to the GM to fiat and come with a way to apply the rules through a scenario, but that should only be used as last resort and not very often.
I often find it best to use the rules to apply the scenario, don't use the scenario to apply the rules.
Sure, but it's specific supersedes general.
Just like saying a dragon can use it's BW underwater isn't helpful for knowing if it can use it's BW underwater while Paralyzed and Geased to not use BW (because specific additions to "being underwater" have been added to situation).
Pinned is considered to also be subject to rules of Grappled, but is a superset of Grappled, i.e. applies additional rules/restrictions... If there is (explicit or effective) Pinned rule that says "you cannot use BW", then the Dragon/Grapple rule isn't sufficient to allow that, because the specific of Pinned over-rules the general of Dragon/Grapple rule.
"Pinned [is a] more severe version of the grappled condition, and the two conditions do not stack... Pinned supersedes the grapple condition; it does not compound it." means there is additional restrictions beyond Grappled. You don't actually have the Grappled condition anymore ("supersedes") you have Pinned which is not Grappled but uses the restrictions of Grappled PLUS MORE STUFF. Something that is affirmed to work in Grappled DOESN'T NECESSARILY work under those additional restrictions. Same as if you Paralyze/Geas the Dragon while it is Grappled doesn't mean "OK now it can use BW because we know can do that while Grappled". Anyways, the question is about Breath Weapons in general, even if the OP mentioned Dragons as his immediate example.
The issue is that the rules for Pinned (and Helpless/Paralyzed) are not clear on that issue due to RulesBork.
I hit FAQ.
The rules aren't really borked. They can't cover every possible contingency that groups of gamers will throw at them. Better for the GM to make a ruling and move on. That's what he's for.
Sure, but it's specific supersedes general.
Just like saying a dragon can use it's BW underwater isn't helpful for knowing if it can use it's BW underwater while Paralyzed and Geased to not use BW (because specific additions to "being underwater" have been added to situation).
Pinned is considered to also be subject to rules of Grappled, but is a superset of Grappled, i.e. applies additional rules/restrictions... If there is (explicit or effective) Pinned rule that says "you cannot use BW", then the Dragon/Grapple rule isn't sufficient to allow that, because the specific of Pinned over-rules the general of Dragon/Grapple rule.
"Pinned [is a] more severe version of the grappled condition, and the two conditions do not stack... Pinned supersedes the grapple condition; it does not compound it." means there is additional restrictions beyond Grappled. You don't actually have the Grappled condition anymore ("supersedes") you have Pinned which is not Grappled but uses the restrictions of Grappled PLUS MORE STUFF. Something that is affirmed to work in Grappled DOESN'T NECESSARILY work under those additional restrictions. Same as if you Paralyze/Geas the Dragon while it is Grappled doesn't mean "OK now it can use BW because we know can do that while Grappled". Anyways, the question is about Breath Weapons in general, even if the OP mentioned Dragons as his immediate example.
The issue is that the rules for Pinned (and Helpless/Paralyzed) are not clear on that issue due to RulesBork.
I hit FAQ.
And you raise the point that it can really be argued either way, but I don't see how you are arguing that pinned is a specific rule and not a general, it is part of the general rules of the grapple combat maneuver chain. The dragon breath rules for grappling are the specific part because they apply only to the dragons and no other breath attack from other creatures. From what I read the Pinned condition is still considered a grappled condition. But either way, trying to argue this way is just as useless as which came first "the chicken or egg" paradox. As Bill Dunn said then its up to the GM until it gets FAQ.
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Jumping into the fray!
I'm going to concur with the individual who earlier posted a Medium grappling/pinning a Huge creature should only be able to grapple a portion of the creature, not the whole, especially because a character who occupies a 5x5 area trying to maintain complete positive control over a creature occupying a 15x15 (note, thats 225 square feet) is pretty improbable, even if it was just a huge human. Now think about a dragon, who has at least 8 appendages you're trying to keep pinned (Head, Left Arm, Right Arm, Left Leg, Right Leg, Left Wing, Right Wing, and Tail) for a total of 4 different type of attacks from 7 different sources (Bite, Claw x4, Wing buffet, and Tail Swipe). Unless your pin condition is contingent upon a living rope, your remaining party members using regular rope or a net, or you growing a vast amount of limbs at will, I as a DM could argue that you can apply a grappled condition with no problems, but never a pinned condition, no matter what the rules state. Since Pathfinder has a tendency to throw logic out the window in favor of written rules that must be followed to the letter, my pure opinion is to agree with the written verbage on Breath Weapon, and that it can be used.
If I had to make a ruling as a gm based on the rules discussed above and this is just me fiating it. It says that pinned creatures are allowed to use spells and spell-like abilities as long as they don't require a somatic or material component. I would allow a dragon to use it's breath weapon while being pinned because of this simply because a dragon's breath weapon is a supernatural ability and is also considered magical because it can be blocked/shutdown by an anti magic field spell or ability. The breath weapon also does not need a somatic/material component to be used. But with every yin there is yang. Based on this reasoning there should also be some kind of concentration check for the dragon to use its breath weapons just like with the spells and spell-like abilities while being pinned.
Would like an answer on this. This is causing quite the rules-kerfluffle at the table.
FAQ'd.
Wuxi Finger Hold on a dragon, the only way I can see this happening.
I would allow it for the dragon and for any PC with a breath weapon such as a dragon disciple.
I'm still hoping for a blog post on grapple and pinned. Some day...! It is a complex enough topic involving many, many flow charts, custom writeups, and more.
In the meantime, suffocation effects should prevent any use of breath weapon:
Breath weapon: Some creatures can exhale a cone, line, or cloud of energy or other magical effects. A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy. Breath weapons allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + 1/2 breathing creature's racial HD + breathing creature's Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted. Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save. Each breath weapon also includes notes on how often it can be used, even if this number is limited in times per day.
If nothing can be inhaled either through natural lungs or some sort of internal bellows system, it cannot be exhaled.
More attempts to pin this down, haha. Suffocation would appear to work due to exhale being specificity called out. However, supernatural abilities in general are not so clear.
The pinned condition states that the creature is limited to mental and verbal actions, and non somatic spells. The text is a little hard to quote on a phone.
Apparently some supernatural abilities qualify as purely mental and verbal, but not a all. skr reply here.
Translation : the use of a su ability while pinned will rely on the description of the ability and gm call. Supernatural abilities are also not clear cut. Cackle requires a verbal component for example -- it does not work in silence. Other supernatural abilities require a touch attack or presenting a holy symbol.
In a pin, your face could be forced against the ground and your arms twisted painfully behind you. That is why the list is so narrowly defined.