What to tell my DM?


Advice


We started a new game about a few weeks ago, and everything has been going pretty well, but my DM has gone back into doing something that made all of his players (including me) quit his last game, and we've brought it up to him a few times, but he hasn't really changed anything, so I need some advice on what to say to him.

His problem is that, even though we are suppose to be the people who save the world (Really we just got hired on to do a job and got brought into it), he introduces characters that are around 4-5 levels higher then us as our allies. But the issue is they do nothing, either they just don't do anything and stay behind us the entire time, or we ask them to do something, during which they go off and die to a single enemy that we basically just steam roll over. It has come to a point, that we as the characters don't even feel the need to help the world, because even though we are lvl 8, there is a lvl 12 mage, a lvl 10 fighter, and a CR 13 Angel that are working for the same thing we are, but don't do anything at all. Mind everyone, that the problems happening are suppose to 'destroy the world' if people don't do something about them.

But as I said earlier, I would like some suggestions to him, or how me and my friends should handle it as a party.


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These guys are clearly plot devices. It doesn't matter if they're level 20 or level 2, they are going to lose to all the enemies your GM wants them to lose to. If your GM is good enough, he can give you assistance without winning you the combats. If he's not up to the task, don't hold it against him, but come to an understanding that they're just there for show. Ask him if he can at least make them die convincingly or perform another useful task or something. This is a problem with his skills as a GM. You should at least make him aware of that in a friendly conversation, so he can compensate accordingly. This is a team game and believe it or not, the GM is part of the team.


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My Self wrote:
the GM is part of the team.

An all too often overlooked fact.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
VRMH wrote:
My Self wrote:
the GM is part of the team.
An all too often overlooked fact.

By all parties.


Show him this thread. Print it out if you need to.

Examples of similar GMing styles:

The very first game I ever played in, the GM included a higher level GMPC, partly to show us how to play the game. All the player characters were turned into bit-part, backing chorus numpties. Once the GMPC was omitted, we got on much better.

The Hobbit & LotR: The 'Gandalf Problem' - in order for the plot to work, the super-powered wizard NPC needed to be removed from play, by Saruman, then by the Balrog; or by The Necromancer.

Solutions include:
Much better to use either a low-level npc to assist (eg to be a healer if no-one in the party can do so (a Bard is a good choice, since 'he's singing, you all get +whatever', is a useful but not over-helpful thing to be doing, plus he can supply any necessary information)), or the high level npc needs to be off-screen, or he/she has been crippled by something already and can only help if the party returns to his safe tower/city/flying castle/personal demi-plane, at certain times/after certain events.

Sovereign Court

So the problem is that he takes his NPCS out and the party gets to be the heroes?

Not sure I fully get the problem.


OilHorse wrote:

So the problem is that he takes his NPCS out and the party gets to be the heroes?

Not sure I fully get the problem.

I thought he was going to continue the phrase "introducing NPCs of 4 levels higher.." with "..and overshadowing the PCs so much that we feel like NPCS!". Definitely a different kind of problem (all extremes tend to be detrimental anyway).


Yeah I legitimately don't understand the problem.

Normally it would be a problem if NPC hog the spotlight by killing all the enemies because the party is too low level and too weak. But that's not what's happening here.

The heros see their allies being destroyed, and have to swoop in and be...BIG DAMN HEROES™. Which is usually exactly what a group wants.

So I really don't understand the problem here at all. The only thing that might be confusing is that somehow your characters know what level their allies are (and they're higher level) and they lose to enemies you easily defeat. So the only thing that might need to happen is to have more challenging combats to make it more realistic as to why your allies fail and you succeed.


The problem, as I understand it, is that if you were dropped into the game world, and given powers as your pc, the logical thing to do would be to hand over the problem to the high-level npcs hanging around, who haven't got anything better to do anyway.

While this is not the problem you're used to hearing clichés about, it is still a problem.

It's fridge logic at work, and makes the game less immersive.

Besides, some of what makes Big Damn Heroes work, is that there's no-one they can turn to for help. If the Brotherhood fails to destroy the ring, they can't trust the kingdoms of men to win the war against Sauron - they can't tell people what they're up to to get help from them either, as they'd likely end up trying to grab the ring for themselves.

That's also why the Eagles take a bit away from the story - they trivialize difficult problems, and makes the heroes success seem lesser.

Heroes aren't supposed to have people more powerful than themselves to turn to for help.


I suspect it's a problem with verisimilitude. If these characters are clearly much more powerful than the group, then get their butts kicked, but the PCs manage to beat the bad guy that by all rights should have mopped the floor with them, you start to wonder.

Alternatively, the problem could be that if there's so many high-level characters walking around, why can't they solve these issues going around? It strains credulity that only the PCs seem capable of getting anything done.

But either way, will have to wait for the OP to clarify.

EDIT: Ninja'd, mostly.


From what I'm gathering, you're saying that the higher level NPCs aren't doing anything to save the world alongside you, despite obviously having more experience and power then you and that you think they should have some modicum of interest in keeping the world in tact.

If that's the case, I would suggest talking to the DM and asking why said NPCs don't care about their own world enough to do even minor tasks to help you (if that's what the problem is). Maybe you can ask the DM to make up a reason why they can't help, or just make them not around for some reason, as if they're gone taking care of some other problem.

While the NPCs do exist though, expecting them to take care of some of the work might be more then what the DM is willing to allow. Maybe they think it'll be to easy a resource to abuse. Asking an angel to scout ahead might seem like to much a boon in your DM's eyes, despite them existing in a world where it's their best interest to help out. This is understandable. I will say that if the DM didn't want them to be involved he should at the very least give reasons they won't help, or be around, but it's completely understandable not wanting to give players such big extra resources whenever they need them... if you want to make them work hard for it at least.


Basically, tell your GM that it is fine to have an "Ace" character, but that character is supposed to be static so that the heroes, the PCs, can surpass this person. TTRPGs are not the place for the GM to masturbate, it is the place for collaborative storytelling. If these other characters were demi-villains who could just go off-world then it would be fine, but if they are heroes pursuing the same goal at the PCs then he needs to rethink them.

He is telling a story. Typically you tell stories from the most interesting person's perspective. If the most interesting characters are the other characters, then why play?

If he is going to add NPCs that are just better at saving the world than you are, don't bother saving the world. These God Tier, compared to you, NPCs have it covered. Go and start whoring at brothels or "dance halls" as they're sometimes called.

The GM will catch on pretty quick that you're not saving the world, or he will blithely carry on without caring, and just solve the story's problem with his masturbatory characters.

It sounds like he is trying to do the "Deal with Heaven" trope, but is failing so hardcore in doing so that you can't and don't understand why these NPCs are standing back.

If one of them was a lord, such as the ruler of Riddleport, a level 12 or so character, then he probably wouldn't participate in fights since, well, he is important. That is what the entire battalion of troops and champions he would bring are for.

Here is my other problem: there are some really powerful characters living on Golarion, including Treerazer, a powerful demon lord. If something is going to destroy the world in such a way that is going to kill him as well, he'll deal with it himself if it is within his power. If it isn't then you don't have a prayer from the onset.

The NPC classes exist because they, well frankly, suck. Changing these NPCs into NPC races with only NPC levels and the non-heroic NPC template would work wonders to make them inferior to the PCs overall.

The NPC classes represent the vast and overwhelming majority. You kind of have to go to school and train your ass off to become a heroic (PC) class.

The NPCs as they are need to go. The GM needs to replace them PCs at your level, and give them NPC gold. This will make their individual CRs x-2. This means the NPCs can be 2 levels above the PCs and still be equal to them. At times this can be useful. If an enemy is going to be using spells that have a maximum HD and the NPC's HD is just high enough to not be effective then he can be invaluable even if he is a commoner.


If the problem really is that these powerful NPCs exist and are being beaten being and/or that they're not doing anything to help...the easiest solution is that the GM needs to come up with tasks that these "important" NPCs are doing. Eventually the NPCs should be surpassed. In the meantime, it may be as simple as the important NPCs are running things from the back line. Organizing, strategizing, etc.

I'm still wondering on exactly what grounds the players and their characters have to think the NPCs are substantially higher level than they are.


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So the only actual problem is that he told you the level of the NPCs?

Just pretend like you don't know what level they are.

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