petition to allow more free rebuild options due to ACG changes


Pathfinder Society

1 to 50 of 70 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

7 people marked this as a favorite.

I acknowledge and greatly appreciate the extended rebuild options in Season 7 when errata changes things.

But I think that in the specific case of the ACG changes even the new rules do not go far enough.

Paizo has publicly admitted that mistakes on their part caused the product to be unacceptably flawed. It is to their credit that they have owned up to the problem and taken steps to correct it.

But they have not yet gone far enough. There are many PFS characters significantly adversely affected by the changes that do not qualify for free rebuilds. These characters find themselves with features that they would not have taken under the new rules and have to pay to change those features if such a change is even possible. I have already seen several examples of such characters in the various threads prompted by the ACG errata and Season 7 changes.

This seems unfair (the customer is paying for Paizo's mistake) and poor public relations.

I would suggest that very liberal rebuilds be allowed. Something along the lines of "if your character uses features in the ACG that were significantly changed in the errata and if, in your honest opinion, you would have made different choices in your character build had the changes been in place when you built your character then you may freely rebuild those aspects of your character directly or indirectly affected by the changes".

I acknowledge that is liberal and could be considered abuseable but I think it is the right solution. The harm caused by any abuses is less than the harm caused by telling customers that they must pay to fix Paizo's mistakes.

If that is too far reaching, perhaps an alternative would be many individual exceptions. For example, "if an archetype changed, then you may retrain that archetype into another legal archetype or that class into another legal class at no cost". That particular example would fix my personal problems.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Maybe your proposal could benefit from a couple of extended examples where character builds were negatively affected, and the new rebuild options do not help.

5/5

Reading the guide and the bit about rebuilding due to rules changes makes me very uneasy.

It seems less liberal than the previous version. In particular:

Guidev6.1 wrote:

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent

ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to
its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

I acknowledge that the old version did have some ambiguity, but in the spirit of "don't be a jerk", the consensus (at least in my area) was that if a class changed, you could rebuild your character.

Guide7.0 wrote:

If an ability-score-dependent feature of a class, prestige

class, or archetype is altered: You may rebuild your
character to its current XP. Keep the same equipment, but
you can resell any equipment that augments the changed
ability score at its full market price.
If a class, prestige class, or archetype changes in such
a way that you no longer have proficiency with a given
weapon or armor type:
You may sell back the affected
equipment and only the affected equipment at full market
value. You may also retrain any feats directly associated
with the affected equipment.

What this seems to be making clear is that if a class feature changes (that isn't ability-score-dependent), the player either needs to suck it up, or spend $10 on Ultimate Campaign, as well as a non-trivial amount of prestige and gold on a retrain.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Maybe your proposal could benefit from a couple of extended examples where character builds were negatively affected, and the new rebuild options do not help.

In my case, I have a monk/swashbuckler(mouser) who took the Kata Master monk archetype only because he wanted Opportune Parry (the build requires the one level dip into monk). Without that feature he'd either take a different archetype or have taken Unchained Monk. Opportune Parry got taken out of several archetypes so I'm sure there are other similar examples

I've seen people mention their dual wielding Slashing Grace builds. They now have feats and money invested in weapons (saw tooth sabres IIRC) that are now poor choices.

The Pummeling Style changes make Improved Critical a significantly less attractive option. While I would have still taken it on my monk I can definitely envision people who would not have.

I'm sure that there are many other examples

1/5 * RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Slashing Grace no longer working with spell combat was a massive kick to the knee. Now we can't have a little variety with our Dex magi.

Sovereign Court 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

honestly they have made severe changes in the past and never allowed full rebuilds. look at the crane style revisions those weren't even corrections those were completely reworded and nerfed. yet they did not allow monks to retrain those feats for free why would it change now? honestly whe people make builds they generally tend to read between the lines and find loop hoes. all they did was close the loop holes that they never intended to be there.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Sarvei taeno wrote:
honestly they have made severe changes in the past and never allowed full rebuilds. look at the crane style revisions those weren't even corrections those were completely reworded and nerfed. yet they did not allow monks to retrain those feats for free why would it change now? honestly whe people make builds they generally tend to read between the lines and find loop hoes. all they did was close the loop holes that they never intended to be there.

Under the new rule, they actually could retrain those crane style feats ^^

And to be blunt, some options like slashing grace were pretty clear.

5/5 5/55/55/5

5 people marked this as a favorite.

*pawprint*

While not personally affected as far as i know beyond "I pick another feat i wasn't entirely happy with" people build large portions of their characters around certain rules and abilities. A melee character is often a finely tuned watch: you can't simply pop out one gear pop in another and expect it to still be useful.

3/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I had 2 characters who simply had to swap out a feat for the first runner-up. No big deal.

My magus had picked up Flamboyant Arcana and Extra Arcana (Precise Strike). Luckily I hadn't played her since then, so I could change it, but anyone who was not so lucky is stuck with an entirely non-functional arcana.

Lastly, my sword-and-board paladin tank took a level of Kata Master so he could parry and riposte with a temple sword. But the new errata replaced that deed with another one that I can't even use in his full plate. And some people are insisting that he doesn't get to retrain at all, claiming that "If an ability-score-dependent feature of a class, prestige class, or archetype is altered" refers only to alterations of the ability score it's dependent on.

Overall, I'm quite disappointed at the new guide's failure to address changes that completely remove class features, or invalidate key components of popular builds.

Sovereign Court 5/5

new guide does allow free retrain of the feat and all pre-req feats you had to take for it. this does not include feats you took simple cause it worked well with the feat ur replacing

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
Slashing Grace no longer working with spell combat was a massive kick to the knee. Now we can't have a little variety with our Dex magi.

All it did was encourage more of the same weapon finesse shocking grasp dex based build. That's hardly variety.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

LazarX wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Slashing Grace no longer working with spell combat was a massive kick to the knee. Now we can't have a little variety with our Dex magi.
All it did was encourage more of the same weapon finesse shocking grasp dex based build. That's hardly variety.

I don't see how using a feat in place of a +1 weapon enhancement created variety for dex magi. Mostly it got you early access to dex to damage if you took a select few classes / races.

In fact, I look at the number of these threads that are "It got nerfed, now my ____ can't have dex to damage at level 1" and say "yup. That is intentional. Almost no one gets dex to damage at level 1. Paizo seems to think that is either a level 3 power, and the only way to get it earlier is to take serious handicaps."

Shadow Lodge

I may be running into parsing issues here, but it would seem like folks who took an archetype that granted opportune parry and riposte are allowed some rebuilding?

Guide 7.0 wrote:
If an ability-score-dependent feature of a class, prestige class, or archetype is altered

If you read that as either:

Parsing Option A wrote:
If .. an archetype is altered...

or

Parsing Option B wrote:
If an ability-score-dependent feature of .. an archetype

it would seem you could rebuild?

In case A, it's clear an archetype was altered.

If case B, where you carry the modifier "ability-score-dependent" forward onto "archetype", it would seem that opportune parry and riposte was a feature that had a dependency on an ability score (Dex) to determine its use/efficacy?

I'm not trying to wiggle this text to be more liberal than intended. I don't have a dog in the race in terms of altered archetypes (that I'm aware of yet), but I'm certainly expecting to be asked about this in future gamedays, and extra elaboration on what this means would be appreciated.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Sarvei taeno wrote:
whe people make builds they generally tend to read between the lines and find loop hoes. all they did was close the loop holes that they never intended to be there.

Please explain to me how it was reading between the lines and finding a loophole to think that a Kata Master monk gave me the Opportune Parry deed.

5/5 *****

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Sarvei taeno wrote:
honestly whe people make builds they generally tend to read between the lines and find loop hoes. all they did was close the loop holes that they never intended to be there.

Can you explain exactly which loophole was involved with the Consume Spells feature of the Arcanist? These are blatant changes to the content of ACG, not tweaks to cover up poor editing or sloppy writing.

3/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

wakedown wrote:
If case B, where you carry the modifier "ability-score-dependent" forward onto "archetype", it would seem that opportune parry and riposte was a feature that had a dependency on an ability score (Dex) to determine its use/efficacy.

For the Daring Champion and Kata Master, the deeds are part of the Panache class feature, which is ability score dependent (on Charisma, to determine the panache pool). Nonetheless, I've had two experienced GMs tell me in other threads that it doesn't count, because it doesn't affect the ability-score-dependency of the archetype (it's still based on Charisma, and in the same way).

That's clearly ignoring the actual written text of the rule, but on the other hand, why would rebuilding be limited to ability-score-dependent features? Changes to other features can destroy characters just as easily.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
FLite wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Slashing Grace no longer working with spell combat was a massive kick to the knee. Now we can't have a little variety with our Dex magi.
All it did was encourage more of the same weapon finesse shocking grasp dex based build. That's hardly variety.

I don't see how using a feat in place of a +1 weapon enhancement created variety for dex magi. Mostly it got you early access to dex to damage if you took a select few classes / races.

In fact, I look at the number of these threads that are "It got nerfed, now my ____ can't have dex to damage at level 1" and say "yup. That is intentional. Almost no one gets dex to damage at level 1. Paizo seems to think that is either a level 3 power, and the only way to get it earlier is to take serious handicaps."

Unless you are an inspired blade swashbuclker, then you can do it at level 1 for 1 feat, or a rapier-wielding human kensai for 2 feats, or a human warpriest.

Sovereign Court 5/5

I'm really at a loss for what to do with my swashbuckler 1/slayer 2 sawtooth saber two weapon fighter, since the major themes are all now mutually exclusive from a build that seemed pretty cut and dry.

The simplest would be a stat reallocation, since dex-based sawtooth saber twf isn't possible anymore in pfs.

1/5 * RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

LazarX wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Slashing Grace no longer working with spell combat was a massive kick to the knee. Now we can't have a little variety with our Dex magi.
All it did was encourage more of the same weapon finesse shocking grasp dex based build. That's hardly variety.

But at least they all weren't a scimitar. Is it so wrong to want to be a Dex-based kapenia dancer?

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Michael Hallet wrote:
FLite wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Slashing Grace no longer working with spell combat was a massive kick to the knee. Now we can't have a little variety with our Dex magi.
All it did was encourage more of the same weapon finesse shocking grasp dex based build. That's hardly variety.

I don't see how using a feat in place of a +1 weapon enhancement created variety for dex magi. Mostly it got you early access to dex to damage if you took a select few classes / races.

In fact, I look at the number of these threads that are "It got nerfed, now my ____ can't have dex to damage at level 1" and say "yup. That is intentional. Almost no one gets dex to damage at level 1. Paizo seems to think that is either a level 3 power, and the only way to get it earlier is to take serious handicaps."

Unless you are an inspired blade swashbuclker, then you can do it at level 1 for 1 feat, or a rapier-wielding human kensai for 2 feats, or a human warpriest.

So out of ~4000 combinations of race, class, and archetype, 3 can do it (Okay, war priest doesn't need a specific archetype, but it does need the correct deity I believe.) I think that qualifies for "almost no one"

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Nope, you can take the free weapon focus in any weapon, not just your deity's favored weapon, Also human fighters can at level 1.

The point is if some can do it at level 1, why not let others? Why not encourage variety rather than every dex-based martial character will be one of these 5 things? Or, close the loophole completely and prevent anyone from doing it.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Hallet wrote:

Nope, you can take the free weapon focus in any weapon, not just your deity's favored weapon, Also human fighters can at level 1.

The point is if some can do it at level 1, why not let others? Why not encourage variety rather than every dex-based martial character will be one of these 5 things? Or, close the loophole completely and prevent anyone from doing it.

Because then you're back to EVERY melee fighter being a high strength two handed weapon type, including the rogues.

The ACG did a lot to make dex fighting viable. The errata has undone that for a lot of characters.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Which is my problem with it. I liked the variety. The update killed on of my characters, so I admit it is personal.

3/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Sarvei taeno wrote:
honestly they have made severe changes in the past and never allowed full rebuilds. look at the crane style revisions those weren't even corrections those were completely reworded and nerfed. yet they did not allow monks to retrain those feats for free why would it change now? honestly whe people make builds they generally tend to read between the lines and find loop hoes. all they did was close the loop holes that they never intended to be there.

Under the new rule, they actually could retrain those crane style feats ^^

And to be blunt, some options like slashing grace were pretty clear.

How was it clear before the errata that you couldn't use it with spell combat? That makes no sense.

3/5 5/5

LazarX wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Slashing Grace no longer working with spell combat was a massive kick to the knee. Now we can't have a little variety with our Dex magi.
All it did was encourage more of the same weapon finesse shocking grasp dex based build. That's hardly variety.

Whip Magus who could trip and disarm and deliver debuff spells from 15 feet away. (Yes, they still can, but now they have very little opportunity to deal damage as well, meaning when their spells are used up, that ends the adventuring day.)

Kapenia dancer.

Aldori swordlord magi who focused on being a duelist with a bit of magic.

Spellcasting Samurai with Katana.

Hell, I've seen dwarf Magi with battleaxes since then, using a swashbuckler dip.

All of these things were made much more viable with the slashing grace option, even without extending it to light weapons.

Not to mention the two-weapon-fighting red mantis assassins and so forth, although those aren't magi.

Now we're going to get a whole lot of scimitar dervish dancers, or rapier fencing grace. That certainly doesn't EXPAND variety.

Silver Crusade 3/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Sarvei taeno wrote:
honestly whe people make builds they generally tend to read between the lines and find loop hoes. all they did was close the loop holes that they never intended to be there.

Jon, I wasn't reading between the lines or looking for a loophole when I built my Dex-based two-weapon fighting Red Mantis Assassin wannabe.

There was NO indication that Slashing Grace should not work with two weapons. It was restricted to one-handed weapons only (not light weapons).

When I was helping another local player build his Dex-based Kapenia Dancer magus, we weren't looking for loopholes. It seemed reasonable that a magus should be able to use Slashing Grace with spell combat. Again, there was nothing in the original write-up of Slashing Grace, or any other abilities to indicate that it was not intended to work this way. (In the case of the magus, they still could always use Dervish Dance with spell combat, so it seems a natural idea that Slashing Grace should work also.)

The proverbial rug has been pulled out from under these types of builds.

My halfling is left with Str 7. There is no way for me to retrain that. So the character concept of using two sawtooth sabres is completely dead for that character.

Likewise, for a player who has built a Dex-based magus around the Slashing Grace feat, they probably also dumped Strength. There is no way for them to retrain that, so their only real option is the go into Dervish Dance instead. That is a tough pill to swallow for a player who wanted to build a Varisia-themed character. (This was the case for the player mentioned above.)

When the Crane Wing bamboozle happened, I lobbied for greater rebuilding options, even though I did not have any characters affected.

When the bamboozle around spell-like abilities and prestige classes occurred, I did not have any characters affected, and lobbied for more liberal rebuilding options.

And both of those were changes to the rules that I had been wanting to see happen for a long time. I just felt that the players affected by those changes were treated unfairly—and you (Jon) were one of those players.

Even though I hope that the campaign leadership will allow for more liberal rebuilding, I honestly don't really even care about my particular halfling character any longer. I have plenty of fun characters that I can still play.

I just needed rebut the notion that we players who were affected somehow deserve what we got, because we are all a bunch of low-down dirty so-and-sos just looking for rules exploits.

5/5 5/55/55/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.

There was no loop holing here. A LOT of things were outright changed and won't work with characters anymore.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

12 people marked this as a favorite.

*Looking into some other ways to handle the ACG errata and rebuilds—stay tuned*

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:


Kapenia dancer.

Not legal anyway. Bladed Scarf is a two handed weapon. You are just using it one handed. Much as if you were wielding a small twohanded weapon one handed.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:


Aldori swordlord magi who focused on being a duelist with a bit of magic.

Because an Aldori Swordlord Magus should have better dex to damage options than an actual Aldori Swordlord (prestige class)?

Quote:
An Aldori swordlord cannot use this ability if he is wielding a shield or an off-hand weapon, including armor spikes, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons.

You aren't an aldori swordlord if you fight with a weapon in your off hand. And spell combat is two weapon fighting with the spell as the second weapon.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:


Hell, I've seen dwarf Magi with battleaxes since then, using a swashbuckler dip.

And you still can. They just have to either switch to pick, or they have to have strength build.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Not to mention the two-weapon-fighting red mantis assassins.

Well, since Red Mantis Assassin is an explicitly disallowed prestige class, (because they are an evil cult *and* an explicit enemy of the Pathfinder Society) I would think preventing people from creating Red Mantis Assassins in PFS play by bypassing the prestige class and assembling the abilities you want out of feats is a *benefit* of the errata, not a flaw.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

First off, I totally support your call for a rebuild.

That said.

The Fox wrote:


When I was helping another local player build his Dex-based Kapenia Dancer magus, we weren't looking for loopholes. It seemed reasonable that a magus should be able to use Slashing Grace with spell combat.

Bladed scarf is a two handed weapon. it was never eligible for slashing grace. The ability to use a two handed weapon one handed does not make it a one handed weapon.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

1 person marked this as a favorite.
John Compton wrote:
*Looking into some other ways to handle the ACG errata and rebuilds—stay tuned*

Thank you. Much appreciated (Especially with how insanely busy you must be right now)

3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Indeed, thank you for putting up with us at one your busiest times of the year.

3/5 5/5

FLite wrote:

First off, I totally support your call for a rebuild.

That said.

The Fox wrote:


When I was helping another local player build his Dex-based Kapenia Dancer magus, we weren't looking for loopholes. It seemed reasonable that a magus should be able to use Slashing Grace with spell combat.
Bladed scarf is a two handed weapon. it was never eligible for slashing grace. The ability to use a two handed weapon one handed does not make it a one handed weapon.

Bastard sword FAQ:

Quote:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

Although again we should be careful not to overgeneralize, this FAQ does appear to indicate that if an ability allows one to treat a weapon as a one-handed weapon, it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects, which would include feats. A Swashbuckler/Titan Mauler could use a Bastard Sword in one hand and qualify for Slashing grace without the EWP.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

My browser keeps eating this post...

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
FLite wrote:


Bladed scarf is a two handed weapon. it was never eligible for slashing grace. The ability to use a two handed weapon one handed does not make it a one handed weapon.

Bastard sword FAQ:

Quote:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
Although again we should be careful not to overgeneralize, this FAQ does appear to indicate that if an ability allows one to treat a weapon as a one-handed weapon, it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects, which would include feats. A Swashbuckler/Titan Mauler could use a Bastard Sword in one hand and qualify for Slashing grace without the EWP.
jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

That line is missing from kapenia dancer.

Now, if that line is meant to be implicit anytime that a weapon is allowed to be used one handed, that would imply I could take Slashing Grace (Fauchard) and it would function as long as my size medium fighter wielded a size small fauchard.

Silver Crusade 3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Slashing Grace wrote:
The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

I should not have to post this, but there has been discussions on it before. Using a Two Handed Weapon with One Hand (because of an ability, feat or exploit) doesn't mean that the character is able to use an oversized version of that weapon (with two hands like a One Handed Weapon). This was clarified in the case of Juntungrip for the Titan Mauler, and should be the case for the parallel for Thunder and Fang.

This would also be for a smaller sized weapon as it still would be made for the specific handyness instead of what the character could do with it when it is a normal size for him.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

pauljathome wrote:

I would suggest that very liberal rebuilds be allowed. Something along the lines of "if your character uses features in the ACG that were significantly changed in the errata and if, in your honest opinion, you would have made different choices in your character build had the changes been in place when you built your character then you may freely rebuild those aspects of your character directly or indirectly affected by the changes".

I acknowledge that is liberal and could be considered abuseable but I think it is the right solution. The harm caused by any abuses is less than the harm caused by telling customers that they must pay to fix Paizo's mistakes.

If that is too far reaching, perhaps an alternative would be many individual exceptions. For example, "if an archetype changed, then you may retrain that archetype into another legal archetype or that class into another legal class at no cost". That particular example would fix my personal problems.

I'm not ready to go with your first suggestion, but the second works well. Check my following post, and if there's something I missed, kindly point it out so that we can assess whether that's a rebuilding exception that should be made. I've hit the biggest two concerns there.

Logistical Heads-Up:
I'm traveling to Gen Con rather soon, at which point my capacity to provide more information or properly format my posts will be quite limited for nearly a week. If I can't get to something that you feel should be subject to broader rebuilding exceptions by the time you play, retrain as if there were no special exceptions, note what you spent (or lost in sale value) to do so, and so long as we make an exception, you'll be reimbursed the gp/PP difference once I can resolve that point in a more definitive way.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

15 people marked this as a favorite.

The Advanced Class Guide errata is out, as is the updated Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, which contains expanded guidelines for rebuilding one’s character when the campaign bans an previously permitted character option or errata revises a rule. I think the Guide covers a lot of the changes pretty well, including how to handle re-priced items, the Charisma-based limit on an arcanist’s Consume Magic Items ability (this is a Charisma-based class ability, after all), the spell level change for contingent action, and many others. There are other situations for which these guidelines don’t present a reasonable fix, and perhaps the general guidelines are worth revisiting further soon after Gen Con.

In the meantime, there are many characters for which retraining a feat chain is insufficient, and it’s clear that the collective breadth of the errata requires greater flexibility to resolve properly—especially with Gen Con just about to begin.

  • Characters that relied on Slashing Grace qualify for a rebuild as though an ability-score-dependent class feature had changed. Sell back any weapons, armor, and equipment associated with the character’s fighting style (e.g. something improving two-weapon fighting or the like—be a fair judge of what makes sense) at their full price.
  • Characters that have levels in a class archetype—or another class option such as a magus arcana—that granted the opportune parry and riposte deed can freely retrain any levels in a class that grants those features. They may also sell back any equipment that no long functions properly based on retraining (e.g. a monk weapon if you retrained levels in kata master).

  • Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

    Thing that I don't think is in the guide and which has come up:

    If you spent PP/gold to retrain an existing character into options from the ACG (for example retrained two feats to gain weapon focus + slashing grace.) Can you recover that PP/gold and restore your character to how they were before the ACG came out?

    Scarab Sages 4/5

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Thanks John, for being on top of this so close to Gen Con!

    Silver Crusade 3/5

    Thank you, John. And my -9 thanks you too! :)

    Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    John ---

    I don't have a slashing grace character. My two ACG characters were both positively affected by the ACG errata.

    So know that I say this without anything to gain:

    You are my new hero.

    Thank you for being awesome.

    Hmm

    3/5 5/5

    FLite wrote:

    My browser keeps eating this post...

    Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
    FLite wrote:


    Bladed scarf is a two handed weapon. it was never eligible for slashing grace. The ability to use a two handed weapon one handed does not make it a one handed weapon.

    Bastard sword FAQ:

    Quote:
    An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
    Although again we should be careful not to overgeneralize, this FAQ does appear to indicate that if an ability allows one to treat a weapon as a one-handed weapon, it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects, which would include feats. A Swashbuckler/Titan Mauler could use a Bastard Sword in one hand and qualify for Slashing grace without the EWP.
    jotungrip wrote:
    At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

    That line is missing from kapenia dancer.

    Now, if that line is meant to be implicit anytime that a weapon is allowed to be used one handed, that would imply I could take Slashing Grace (Fauchard) and it would function as long as my size medium fighter wielded a size small fauchard.

    I would argue that the designers anticipated that possibility -- well, not that exact possibility, but shenanigans with inappropriately sized weapons -- and that is why the weapon finesse feat (which swashbuckler finesse references and therefore has the same restriction) requires that the weapon be properly sized for the wielder.

    3/5 5/5

    John, thanks for this update. Although none of my actively playing characters were directly impacted by this, I've had to significantly revise one I've been building with AP campaign mode credit, and I would not have enjoyed having to deal with its underpinnings being cut out from under it.

    Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Thank you very much for this, especially for doing it so quickly when you are so busy. Its a very reasonable interim solution.

    Have fun at Gen Con

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Thank you!

    Sovereign Court 5/5

    thanx john, and fox i was never trying to incite that anyone had done that with the slashing grace. i was simply pointing out that they have done drastic nerfs in the past and no free rebuilds came of it. while i stated that people look for loop holes in wording for builds i was not trying accuse anyone but just saying in general thats the case. i have played off a loophole in 1 of my builds and i know many others have just in the local area.

    i apologize if that came across wrong to everyone that was not my intent.

    3/5

    Can an arcanist who is rebuilding to a non spontaneous casting class resell Runestones of Power, Spell Lattices, and similar wondrous items at full value?

    Silver Crusade 3/5

    Sarvei taeno wrote:

    thanx john, and fox i was never trying to incite that anyone had done that with the slashing grace. i was simply pointing out that they have done drastic nerfs in the past and no free rebuilds came of it. while i stated that people look for loop holes in wording for builds i was not trying accuse anyone but just saying in general thats the case. i have played off a loophole in 1 of my builds and i know many others have just in the local area.

    i apologize if that came across wrong to everyone that was not my intent.

    No worries. :)

    I'm sure my hackles were up from the whole general situation.

    Silver Crusade 3/5

    Ryzoken wrote:
    Can an arcanist who is rebuilding to a non spontaneous casting class resell Runestones of Power, Spell Lattices, and similar wondrous items at full value?

    My understanding is No.

    The Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide* wrote:
    If an ability-score-dependent feature of a class, prestige class, or archetype is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP. Keep the same equipment, but you can resell any equipment that augments the changed ability score at its full market price.

    None of those items augment the changed ability score.

    You would be able to sell back at full refund headband of alluring Charisma, however.

    *:
    That is such a long and awkward title.

    1 to 50 of 70 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
    Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / petition to allow more free rebuild options due to ACG changes All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.