Advanced Class Guide Potential Oversights


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

so I think we need a separate thread for all the things that are still broken and not about things they broke.


Psychic Talent:
At 3rd level, a psychic searcher's mastery of her supernatural insight grows, granting her a new investigator talent from the following list: amazing inspiration, eidetic recollection, empathy, inspired alertness, item lore, perceptive tracking (except using Sense Motive instead of Perception or Survival), rogue talent (only for hard to fool), and tenacious inspiration. Whenever a psychic searcher can select a new revelation, she can instead select an investigator or rogue talent from the above list.

can you pick any of these talents or are you limited by your oracle level being an investigator level?


Shaman spell list is still missing a lot of spells that both its parent classes have, most notably Communal spells.


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Eldritch Scion:
-Is it intentional that the Eldritch Scion cannot use metamagic with Spell Combat due to the raised casting time?

-Eldritch Scion does not replace Improved Spell Recall, meaning it gains a useless Spell Recall at level 11.

Pack Flanking:
-Pack Flanking is not a combat feat, but it appears that it should be.


Brawler's Flurry needs a lot of clarification.

1) How do you determine TWF penalties? Your "offhand" could be considered to be anything from "nothing" to a 2 handed weapon.

2) How does being "considered to have the TWF feat" work with prerequisites?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hunter Companion using (Ranger) Skirmisher Tricks:
Several tricks aren't obvious how they would work when used by the Companion instead of Ranger themself.
I would GUESS most tricks' references to Ranger can be interpreted as Ranger = Companion when Companion is using the Trick (it doesn't say that though, and should). E.g. Catfall, Aiding Attack, others not mentioned here.

Other tricks are funky in that the Ranger normally is using the trick, but it has some effect on the Companion/ grants free action to Companion, etc. What happens when the Companion is using the trick instead of the Ranger? Is the effect on Companion now transposed onto the Hunter themself? Again, it should say that if so. E.g. Bolster Companion, Heel, Sic 'Em,

Some tricks are just unclear how an Animal Companion really is to use them, because of nature of Animal. E.g. Cunning Pantomime (effect when "caster" is not intelligent creature themself?) Quick Heal (capacity to make Heal check/administer Potion relevant?) Hateful Attack (Favored Enemy reference?), Trick Shot (seemingly assumes ranged attack, but states "can make ranged attack" = granting ranged attack???)


Extra Hex Feat: Doesn't currently allow generic Shaman Hexes, although text indicates intent is merely to exclude Wandering Spirit Hexes. (also how does it work with Unsworn?, who qualify for the Feat)

I wrote:

Not sure if the damage component of Heaven's Sunburn ability is "ongoing"/DoT(1rnd) and thus provokes Concentration check for casters, or instantaneous (and only glow effect is 1rnd). Grammar isn't clear: "The creature takes 1d6 points of fire damage for every 2 levels the shaman possesses and emits bright light for 1 round.": is damage instantaneous or DoT for 1 round? Grammatically/Plausibly could go either way, so I'm not sure.

Heaven spirit animal is unclear re "star map", is that the same as "start chart"? Even if so, the mechanical benefits should be given here IMHO.

There are two mechanics with SIMILAR names that it might be drawing from (Heavans Oracle Star Chart, Half Elf Racial Gear Star Chart), it needs to specify source it is emulating, and the name should be same / and or reference other source's name, instead of the incongruity of star map vs. star chart.
Olibvyax wrote:

A) Is the any use to the star map feature? Is the same as the Oracle Star Chart or the half-elf gear star chart? Or is it just flavor?

B) A non-flying familiar get to fly with a halo, but can a flying one fly without the bonus And the nimbus? What is the effect of the nimbus rulewise? Cannot stealth, or penality to stealth, illumination to area ?

2) Can a shaman leave spell slots open to prepare them later like they say in the Magic section of the Players Guide?

Also, what is official stance on Shamans taking Improved Familiar?

Shaman Familiar wording is different than other cases of classes/archetypes/options (e.g. Pirate Bard, Domains) granting one specific creature type of Familiar, so there is a broader issue here deserving of a FAQ, but Shamans are a unique case as well.

I wrote:

I believe they can't, because Spirit Animal functions as Familiar EXCEPT THAT it has restriction on always having same type, I.e. that restriction falls outside scope of Familiar ability, thus Improved Familiars modification of Familiar rules doesn't apply... In contrast, things like Pirate Bard or Domains that have Familiar with one specific animal ARE fully functioning within scope of Familiar ability (even if they remove normal options), so CAN benefit from extra choices of Improved Familiar which adds choices (though could still not choose other base familiars, for special bonuses, even if they can now select Planar versions of those animals).

Still, it would be nice to be cleared up, especially as that is a pretty arcane nuance between these different rules cases(of "restricted choice familiars").

Luthorne wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:

I found what seems to be an error in the ACG, one I'm not sure has been mentioned anywhere yet. The Shaman Wind Spirit's "True Spirit" ability allows you to turn into a lightning elemental, as elemental body IV. Was this supposed to be air elemental?

As it currently stands, elemental body only has rules for fire/water/earth/air elemental forms, nothing for a lightning elemental.

Yes, there is a lightning elemental in Pathfinder.

Lightning Elemental (scroll down to it)

Yes, but elemental body can't turn you into one. Which is certainly something I would like changed, or at introduce the quasielemental body line of spells.


Is slashing grace intended to not work with shortsword? It is supposed to stop working when you get grapple?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Also re: Hunter Companion using Skirmisher Tricks:
These are treated as Handle Animal Tricks that the Hunter "commands" the Companion to use, which is a Free Action for a known trick with your Companion. But unless specifically noted, Free Actions happen on your turn, while several of the Skirmisher Tricks are "reactive"/ would be triggered by situations during the COMPANION'S turn (or other creatures' turn), not the Hunter's, thus how does the Hunter "command" them (free action) during Companion's (or other creatures') turn? e.g. Aiding Attack reactive to Companion's own attacks, Bolster Companion reactive to when Companion is attacked by some other creature (although unclear who qualifies as Companion in this case, since the Companion is one ultimately using the trick, not the Hunter themself), Catfall reactive vs. falling, etc...

Also, if Skirmisher Tricks may now be taught as if they are Handle Animal Tricks, does that mean that ANY/ALL of them may be used "untrained" with a "Push" Handle Animal Check (Move Action when commanding your Companion)? That would still consume the daily usage allotment, of course. (and Move Action Pushing may preclude use of "reactive" tricks unless you want them to use it during Hunter's own Turn and the Trick is compatable with that)


I actually posted these in separate threads, but since they pertain to this topic, I'll repost them here for convenience of all... (+some clarifications)
There is some issues here deriving from the wording of the recent Errata itself,
but mostly issues carried over from pre-Errata version, which were overlooked...

Quandary wrote:

ACG Errata: Unsworn Minor Spirit(changes in bold):
"Minor Spirit (Su): At 1st level, the unsworn shaman also forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a shaman or witch hex of her choosing, but not a major hex or a grand hex. She must make this selection each day when she prepares her spells for the day. Until she changes the minor spirit, she continues to have access to the witch hex. At 2nd level, she can instead select a hex from one of her wandering spirits selected for that day. If she selects a witch hex, she treats her shaman level as her witch level, and uses her Wisdom in place of her Intelligence for the purpose of that hex.

She can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter. This ability replaces spirit and alters hex."

...This seemingly doesn't allow access to Hexes of your Spirits granted via Minor Spirit, while allowing Hexes from Wandering Spirit?
Allowing "Shaman Hexes" in this ability only seems to allow "generic" Shaman Hexes, i.e. not the Spirit Hexes, which are normally granted per the Spirit ability of vanilla Shaman (which Unsworn gives up):
"She also adds the hexes possessed by that spirit to the list of hexes that she can use with the hex and wandering hex class features."
(incidentally, I don't know why it mentions wandering hex there, it's not appropriate, and wandering hex handles that on it's own)

Also, is it intended that Unsworn Shaman gains the Spirit Magic spells of Wandering Spirit (whose bonus spells feature isn't modified by the archetype), but not that of the "Minor Spirits" which are replacing Spirit (and it's language about bonus spells from said Spirit)? IF this is intended, it seems that Spirit Magic's text should be altered to only reference Wandering Spirit, and not Spirit. (or if it's intended to work with the Minor Spirits, it should be modified to reference Minor Spirit instead...

Quandary wrote:

RE: Extra Hex Feat

"Benefit: You gain one additional hex. You must meet the prerequisites for this hex. If you are a shaman, it must be a hex granted by your spirit rather than one from a wandering spirit."

How does this work for Unsworn Shaman? (who qualifies for this Feat, as well as Spirit Talker, now that Errata just "alters" Hex instead of replaces it)
Is the intent merely to exclude wandering spirits' hexes, thus Minor Spirit Hexes are OK? (or, should Minor Spirit Hexes "count as" Spirit Hexes in general?)
Likewise re: "generic" Shaman hexes, is the intent really to allow only Spirit Hexes, or just EXCLUDE Wandering Spirit Hexes... so "generic" Hexes should be OK?

I can see why Spirit Talker would be limited to Hexes only from "Spirit", because that fits with the "flavor",

but for such a generic Feat as "Extra [Class Feature]" (Hex in this case), it seems strange why generic Shaman Hexes should be excluded from the Extra Hex Feat's function.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Also the action economy of the shield champion brawler archetype is very questionable.

Currently to throw an equipped shield one needs to take a move action to unstrap it. (unless quick draw shield +quick draw, or the exotic throwing shield).

Also at 5th level the shield comes back at the end of your turn. Is the shield champion able to reequip the shield (currently only possible if it is a quick draw shield).

As it appears, it looks like the archetype really has to use a quick draw shield and the feat quick draw to function as it appears to be intended.

Forcing a feat to function and reducing choices to only light shields (as heavy shields don't have quick draw versions).


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Back to the questions of Brawler's flurry. What happens if you flurry a shield with the shield master feat? What are your penalties?


D) For more Brawler shenanigans, what happens when you dip 2 levels of Brawler? The Brawler can use two weapon fighting with only one weapon. That weapon can potentially be a two-handed monk weapon, such as the kyoketsu shoge. So, is there anything to keep another two weapon fighter like the ranger or slayer from dipping two levels of Brawler and getting to save a lot of money on a second weapon, while getting meaningfully better damage while two-weapon fighting from reach?

E) While using the Brawler's flurry while wearing a shield, if all of the attacks come from the non-shield hand, does the Brawler maintain his shield bonuses. This question is in regard to some ambiguities resulting from the FAQ about two weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes that introduced the "hands of effort".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Castilonium wrote:
Shaman spell list is still missing a lot of spells that both its parent classes have, most notably Communal spells.

The biggest oversight in my mind is still that a shaman has Spiritual Weapon but not Spiritual Ally on their list.


Decorpsed wrote:


The biggest oversight in my mind is still that a shaman has Spiritual Weapon but not Spiritual Ally on their list.

The Shaman has all manner of things it shouldn't have and is already OP.... it should consider itself fortunate to have been given SNA

After all neither the Oracle or Witch get SNA...

Fairs fair... if the Shaman wants Spiritual Ally cos its all about the spirits then fine.... but no SNA


The thing about the shaman is that while it's supposed to be a mix of Oracle and Witch, there is actually a lot of Druid in there too. It makes sense, because the Druid has several archetypes with the word Shaman in them.

But let's try to keep these kinds of discussions out of this thread. Even if you think a class shouldn't have something, others clearly think they should. Leave it up to the devs to decide if they have a point or not.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Silver Surfer wrote:
Decorpsed wrote:


The biggest oversight in my mind is still that a shaman has Spiritual Weapon but not Spiritual Ally on their list.

The Shaman has all manner of things it shouldn't have and is already OP.... it should consider itself fortunate to have been given SNA

After all neither the Oracle or Witch get SNA...

Fairs fair... if the Shaman wants Spiritual Ally cos its all about the spirits then fine.... but no SNA

Personally, i find the fact that druid abilities keep creeping back into the shaman's kit to be pretty annoying. I know they at least partially started with druids in the play test, but they're supposed to be all Oracle and Witch now. So if anything, they should be getting the SM line not SNA. Neither spell line makes very much thematic sense though, so i'm all for expanding the Spiritual Weapon/Ally line of spells instead.

Regardless the Spiritual Guardian Feat makes the absence of Spiritual Ally on the shaman spell list feel like a glaring omission. At least they get access to it once a day if they take an Ancestor Spirit, but it still feels odd.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a few posts. Be civil to each other.


Quote:
Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman’s native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Wisdom rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells for a new spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list.

Should Arcane Enlightenment work with Wandering Hex? This ability, along with few others, seems much more powerful as a Wandering Hex than as a normal Spirit Hex. As a normal Spirit Hex, it requires investment and hard choices. As a Wandering Hex, it lets you have whatever you think you will need on a given day. Perhaps some hexes shouldn't be available as a wandering hex.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I feel like i need to remind people that this is what they forgot, not what they broke, so discussions other than, they didn't fix this about the shaman shouldn't really be here.


1. Was it intended that the Strangler Brawler lost Improved Unarmed Strike? It's a prerequisite for Improved Grapple, which is all the archetype is about.

2. Are the levels in which the Brawler gains extra attacks with Brawlers Flurry correct? They seem to imitate the progression of a 3/4 bab class, not a full bab class.


The Spelleater archetype (Bloodrager) trades away DR (and Uncanny Dodge) in exchange for Fast Healing while raging. Their DR is effectively considered zero, and things that would normally add to DR add to that zero.

The Undead bloodline, as part of it's level 20 package says "the DR from your damage reduction ability increases to 8." This is only an increase of +3 for a regular Bloodrager, but as written it would give a Spelleater the full 8, completely negating the DR loss from choosing the archetype.


I posted this in another thread, but not here, and it seems relevant:

Re: Flexible Hex Feat, it still seems to have the strange function of "favoring" the Wandering Hex, i.e. only allowing switching to a Hex from the Wandering Spirit, although you can select Hexes from your "main" Spirit via normal daily prep (you just can't switch back, once you switch). Also seems to still not allow selecting generic Shaman Hexes...?

(not 'broken' just seemingly strange limitations that don't seem particularly flavor-justified)


I'm reposting this from another thread, where it came up that there wasn't agreement on how Unsworn worked re: granting Hexes... Namely, that Minor Spirit grants "Shaman Hexes" which derive from "bond[ing] with ... minor spirits".

The question is does "Shaman Hexes" here only allow for "generic" Shaman Hexes?
(i.e. the list under the vanilla Shaman Hex Ability, which allows for said list and "hexes listed in the description of her chosen spirit")
Or does the term "Shaman Hex" refer to any Hex pertaining to the Shaman class?
(which includes all Hexes mentioned under each Spirit contained within Shaman class)
If we take the broader meaning, of course the vanilla Hex ability is still worded so that the vanilla Hex ability itself will only allow choices from 'generic' list and from your chosen Spirit... So there is no inherent reason the term NEEDS to be interpreted in narrow way in order for baseline vanilla class to function. (Likewise Extra Hex is restricted, albeit excluding non-Spirit Hexes)

Quandary wrote:

OK, I don't see any restriction in Minor Spirit to only Wandering Spirit Hexes (+Generic Shaman Hexes?), it says you can select "Shaman Hexes" and then mentions your Wandering Spirit Hexes are OK... There is no restriction to certain lists, e.g. Generic Shaman Hexes (as the vanilla Hex ability works), and I don't see anything that suggests Spirit Hexes are not "Shaman Hexes": Both are listed under the heading "Hexes", and both are Shaman Class Abilities... I don't see a reason why "Shaman Hex" refers to one but not the other... there is no distinct phrase given to refer to each group separately (I invented the term "Spirit Hex" for ease of discussion). Perhaps the intent is to retain the vanilla Hex ability's restriction to certain "Generic" list (+Wandering), but that isn't at all clear to me from RAW, and the archetype text IS granting access to Shaman Hexes with no restriction.

The naming of the abilities also suggested to me that more than just Wandering Spirit Hexes were OK, as "Minor Spirit" name and references to making bonds with Minor Spirits suggests bonding with Spirits beyond simply the parameters of Wandering Spirit. That isn't necessarily persuasive on it's own, but in the lack of RAW constraining Shaman Hex choice, the naming/language/flavor seemed congruent with bonding with multiple Spirits beyond just Wandering, so I never had reason to question that interpretation until now.

"She can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter."
If Wandering Spirit is supposed to be the sole means to increase your sources of Spirits/Hexes, it seems very strange for the above passage explicitly describing the expanding # of spirits/hexes granted to not even mention Wandering Spirit when it should be the crux of the mechanic (by that reading). Obviously, it earlier mentions you can choose a Hex of one of your Wandering Spirits, but that doesn't result in any actual...

This issue partly derives from the fact that Post-Errata Minor Spirit now "replaces spirit and alters hex". OK, but it is not all that clear how it is altering hex, i.e. what parts it is retaining. Minor Spirit is not trying into Hex's functionality and just changing or diverting certain parts, it just outright gives it's own rules function with ZERO reference to base functionality of Hex, so how do we understand how it is "modifying" it? (Potentially it could be intended to "inherit" Hex's limitation to "generic" Hex list, while removing the reference to Spirit Hex since that reference is nonsensical for Unsworn who don't have Spirit)


In that other thread, the same people who believed the Unsworn Minor Spirit ability DIDN'T allow access to ALL Shaman Hexes beyond the "generic" list and those from Wandering Spirits, also seemed to believe that Unsworn wasn't really worth taking vs. Vanilla (or other Archetype) Shaman because it just didn't offer enough in exchange for what it gave up... I somewhat agree with that assessment, albeit I believe the rules DO allow Unsworn free access to all Shaman Hexes including from Spirits it didn't select via Wandering Hex, and that exactly is what makes it worth taking. And honestly, I don't really see it being OVER powered because of that... Although it does seem a bit strange that you get Spirit Powers 2 levels late but when you do get them they are at full power (rather than at -2 effective level).

Another side of the coin is how Feats work into this, because Feats which tie in to key class abilities, are very relevant to Class Balance, and how Feats work (or don't work) with Archetypes is very relevant to those Archetypes' balance. Currently Unsworn doesn't qualify for Flexible Hex at all. Post-Errata, Unsworn does qualify for Extra Hex, but the RAW is non-functional for them "If you are a shaman, it must be a hex granted by your spirit rather than one from a wandering spirit." when Unsowrn don't have a "Spirit" that grants hexes, so that entire sentence just doesn't work for them (I can't even say it's a solid restriction against them since it is so incoherent).

I separately posted the question on the intent in that Feat, whether the intent was merely to exclude Wandering Hexes and thus "generic" Shaman Hexes should also be allowed (for all Shamans, including Unsworn), whether Unsworn should have some other accomodation (to allow "generic" Shaman Hexes for them only, allow Wandering Spirit Hexes for them only, allow Spirit Hexes correlated to their Minor Spirit Hex choices, allow all Spirit Hexes for them, allow Unsworn to take extra Witch Hexes, etc)... Or if Unsworn are NOT meant to be able to use Extra Hex Feat, they should be excluded from it via it's Pre-Reqs.

I guess, generally speaking, if Unsworn get a better ruling re: Hex access via Minor Spirit, they don't need as advantageous a ruling re: Extra Hex Feat (although it should still do something for them, if they can take it). If they get a worse ruling re: Minor Spirit Hexes, they pretty much NEED a strong ruling re: Extra Hex Feat (to the extent that they get more out of said Feat than vanilla Shamans, IMHO).

Part of the problem here, IMHO, is that there doesn't seem to be clearly denoted terms... Anybody discussing the topic ends up using terms like "generic Shaman hexes" and "Spirit Hexes" but those are nowhere to be found in the RAW, which places a list (of "generics") within the baseline Hex ability but doesn't otherwise label the abilities... Which it has been suggested is an artefact of the design process, with distinct "generic" Hexes entering the design so late in the process.

A related issue is in the Favored Class Bonuses, namely Gnomes get "The shaman gains 1/6 of a new shaman hex." which of course runs into the same issue as Minor Spirit's granted Hexes.

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