Nimble Guardian guide


Advice


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Good afternoon.

Lately I've been working on a character concept and from it grew a build that has turned into something rather spectacular. Now that its finished (more or less), I wanted to toss it out there for others to dissect, gather ideas from and enjoy in whole or in part. A slight disclaimer - I generally only work on builds that are both fun and effective to play throughout their career, from level 1 on up. This one takes a little while to get its footing, serving as a solid but only average character in terms of power until it acquires its defining ability in Feline Guardian at 7th. It also offers a great deal more variation, as once you reach 9th, there are a number of ways you can evolve based on your personal preference and play style.

Concept:

The gist if the build is to combine the unarmed strikes of the Monk and the pouncing, raking abilities of a Dire Tiger with a number style feats to maximize the potential of both. The build is extremely MAD initially, but after your first attribute spread, its all about Strength.

Race & Class:

The Nimble Guardian is a racial archetype for Catfolk, and while Catfolk are a very strong race with some excellent options, they are actually suboptimal for this build. Moreover, as one of the more 'obscure' races, there are many groups in which they will not be allowed. Fortunately there is a cure for that - the Racial Heritage feat will open up this archetype for you while at the same time granting you the benefit of the Human's FCB and additional skill ranks. It also allows you to flavor the concept in a wide variety of ways rather than being stuck in the 'I'm a cat person who can turn into a cat' meme. Another solid choice here would be Half-Orc (who also qualify for the Racial Heritage feat) - you'll have to figure out where that extra feat is going to come from, but Darkvision and +2 to saving throws is a pretty strong argument.

In addition to the Nimble Guardian archetype, you will also be stacking the Master of Many Styles and the Quinggong Monk archetype as well.

Attributes:

As I said, this build is rather MAD. Under such circumstances I prefer a broad approach, seeking the best value for my point buy rather than specializing and trying to 'make do' with weaknesses in other areas. With a 20 point buy, racial modifications and level bonuses, this is what the attributes would look like for me:

STR - 15 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 7

Traits:

The default Reactionary makes a good choice here, though Fist of the Society might as well, given the benefits of Ki powers. Alas, you can't take both due to fact that they are both from the Combat category, so I chose Birthmark as the second option, gaining a +2 to saves vs. Charm and Compulsion effects. Saving throws are a strength of this character and there's no reason to shy away from making them even better. If you're going the Half-Orc route, then Fortune's Favored goes here.

Feats:

What follows is a level by level explanation of feats taken, why, and how they work together:

1st - Racial Heritage: Catfolk
1st - Catfolk Exemplar (Human bonus feat)
1st - Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk bonus feat)
1st - Dragon Style (MoMS bonus feat)
2nd - Janni Style (MoMS bonus feat)

Racial Heritage opens up the archetype while Catfolk Exemplar gives you claws. As you will come to see, claws are very important in this build and, in this case, in addition to giving you two natural attacks right off the bat, it sets the table for you to take Weapon Focus: Claws which is itself a prerequisite for Feral Combat Training.

Dragon Style and Janni Style are your first two style feats. In addition to setting up the ones that will be taken later, they give you enhanced mobility - especially when charging, which will be important - and some additional defenses against a variety of threats like Flanking, Sleep and Paralysis.

3rd - Weapon Focus: Claws
5th - Feral Combat Training

Feral Combat Training is really the feat that makes the rest of this build go. Essentially what it does is allow you to treat any claw attacks as unarmed strikes. This opens a number of doors which will become more clear as we progress.

6th - Janni Rush (MoMS bonus feat)

Janni Rush allows you to roll double the normal number of damage die when charging and making an attack with Unarmed Strike. So now, if you charge - which Dragon Style allows you to do even over difficult terrain or through allies - you deal 2d4+STR with your claw attack instead of 1d4, thanks to the benefit of Feral Combat Training. An extra d4 of damage here or there might now seem like much, but just wait.

7th - Multiattack

Now here's where things get interesting. 7th level is also the level that grants the defining class feature 'Guardian Feline' - namely, you get the ability to turn into a Large-sized cat pretty much at will. Your choice will logically be a Dire Tiger. Let's see what that does for us:

You gain two large-sized Claw attacks and a large-sized Bite attack to replace your two earlier claw attacks. Your strength, movement and natural armor all improve significantly.

Your Unarmed Strike advances its damage dice to the 'Large' category as well. Remember that Unarmed Strikes count as weapon, meaning that you can combine them with natural attacks, though that bumps the natural attacks down to 'secondary' status which means they take a -5 attack penalty. The Multiattack feat you just took reduces that to a -2 penalty, or basically a wash once you factor in the bonus from charging.

Being a Dire Tiger gives you the Pounce ability, meaning you can make a full attack as part of a charge. So, all of a sudden you can charge across difficult terrain and through allies, and when you do you make a full attack where all claw and unarmed strikes have their damage dice doubled. In this case, that looks like:

Bite (2d6)
Claw (4d4)
Claw (4d4)
Unarmed Strike (4d6)

It may be that, for 7th level ay least, you decide to forge the unarmed attack so as not to take the attack penalty on the others. At 8th level however, you gain a second iterative attack to use your Unarmed Strike with, adding yet another attack to your charge, and your damage dice improved, making your charging Unarmed Strikes 4d8 rather than 4d6.

9th - Horn of the Criosphinx

This is where things go from interesting to out-right crazy. First off, your Guardian Feline ability improves to allow your Dire Tiger's Rake ability, adding two more claw attacks to your pouncing charge. Secondly, Horn of the Criosphinx while a little wordy, at the end of the day allows Monks to add double their STR damage bonus when making Unarmed Strikes as part of a charge, so long as they are not wielding a weapon. Remember, thanks to Feral Combat Training all your claw attacks count as Unarmed Strikes. All told, using the attributes above, modified by your Dire Tiger form and with no magical gear whatsoever, that means you are making the following attacks on a charge:

Bite (2d6+8)
Claw (4d4+16)
Claw (4d4+16)
Claw (4d4+16)
Claw (4d4+16)
Unarmed Strike (4d8+16)
Unarmed Strike (4d8+16)

At this point you should be ready to rock and roll. From here you can go a lot of different directions, depending on your preferences and play style. I've outlined a few of my favorite options below.


All of that gets you to 9th level, and that 'chassis' sets up whatever you'd like to do next. For practicality's sake, let's assume for now that you continue on with your Monk levels.

Monk progression:

10th - Dragon Ferocity (MoMS bonus feat)
11th - Improved Bull Rush
13th - Rhino Charge
14th - Jabbing Style (MoMS bonus feat)
15th - Dimensional Assault
17th - Dimensional Agility
18th - Jabbing Master (MoMS bonus feat)
19th - Dimensional Dervish

Dragon Ferocity further increases your damage output in a similar fashion to Horn of the Criosphinx except you don't need to be charging. Improved Bull Rush sets up Rhino Charge which lets you ready a charge as a standard action - this is invaluable for both getting around the battlefield and maximizing your damage output. Moreover, you can use it to move out of range of a foe and immediately plunge back in. Jabbing Style/Jabbing Master just increases your damage output and can be easily exchanged for Boar Style/Boar Shred or anything else for that matter. Finally the Dimensional combat feats add a nice... well, a nice dimension to the character, utilizing Abundant Step in a variety of ways.

One note here - Power Attack, a pre-req for Improved Bull Rush is taken as a swap out for High Jump via Quinggong Monk. This means that you can only use Rhino Charge when you activate that ability... if you want to be able to use it at will, you'll have to select it via a standard feat.

Speaking of Quinggong Monk, these would be my recommendations for swap outs. Some are for obvious reasons, some more a matter of play style.

4th - Barkskin replaces Slow Fall
5th - Power Attack replaces High Jump
7th - Guardian Feline (class feature) replaces Wholeness of Body
11th - Ki Leech replaces Diamond Body
12th - Abundant Step is not replaced
13th - Shadow Walk replaces Diamond Soul
15th - Cold Ice Strike replaces Quivering Palm
17th - Wholeness of Body replaces Timeless Body
17th - Restoration (self only) replaces Tongue of the Sun and Moon
19th - Empty Body is not replaced
20th - Perfect Self is not replaced

Ki Leech and Cold Ice Strike are particular favorites here. Ki Leech because it allows you to replenish your Ki and Cold Ice strike because, well, a 15d6 damage ranged attack as a swift action? Yes, please.

On the other hand, there are a number of other classes that might be interesting to explore. Basically you have 11 levels of any non-Charisma based class to play with, so look for what that might seem to have good synergy. Here are a couple of recommended options:

Fighter progression (Brawler archetype):

If you go the Brawler route, you're forgoing a number of your Ki powers and some of your versatility in order to maximize your combat capabilities. This is how I would parse out the bonus feats:

10th - Power Attack
11th - Improved Bull Rush
11th - Rhino Charge
13th - Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
13th - Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
15th - Improved Grapple
15th - Greater Grapple
17th - Greater Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
17th - Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike
19th - Combat Reflexes
19th - Standstill

In this instance you are taking Power Attack and can thus use Rhino Charge whenever you like. You also increase your abilities as a Bull Rusher and a Grappler (remember that the Dire Tiger gets a free Grapple attempt as part of its Bite attack). Standstill, No Escape and Menacing Stance make life utterly miserable for any spell casters you might encounter. Your damage output goes up significantly between Power Attack, the Weapon Focuses/Specialization and the Close Combatant class feature.

Druid progression (Feral Shifter archetype):

I'm currently exploring this option as sort of the opposite of the Brawler. You gain a number of swift action animal abilities in place of Nature's Bond which has diminished benefits in this build. Moreover you gain the Druidic buffs to boost your effectiveness both in and out of combat. Strong Jaw, for example, will make your natural attacks deal damage as if you were two size categories larger - and remember, Janni Rush then doubles the damage dice dealt by Claws on top of that. Then there are the Cure spells, Restoration - even something simple like Stone Call would allow you to take huge advantage with your superior mobility. You'll need to take Natural Spell as it will be very rare that you're not in Dire Tiger form, and should probably continue to pursue the Rhino Charge feat chain as well.


Updated.


Anybody see anything off about this?


With Horn of the Criosphinx - it says 'To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free' and as a tiger you don't have hands, let alone free hands.

The character has Janni Rush without taking the prerequisite Janni Tempest. MoMS gets to ignore prerequisites for style feats but not for feats later down those feat paths. This might have stopped working as the result of errata, I forget the pre-errata rule.


Feral Combat Training would apply your Unarmed Damage progression to your claws, since that monk class feature augments unarmed strikes.

Also, nice threadomancy.

Liberty's Edge

Not to necro the thread once more, but it is on top of google for Nimble Guardian.

There is a serious issue with how the original author calculated the damage for the attacks.

Claws are natural weapons, and unarmed strikes are considered manufactured weapons. Feral combat training lets you use claws in a flurry of blows, and apply monk feats to them, but it does not suddenly give you six full STR iteratives at level 9.

When you use natural weapons in a full round, you either use them as primary ( without any "manufactured weapon" attacks in the full-round) or as secondary attacks in addition to your "manufactured weapon" attacks.

If you use them as secondaries, in addition to the-5 BAB penalty, they only do HALF STRENGTH bonus on damage, which cancels out the Criosphinx double STR bonus.

You also can't actually take Multi-Attack without having three natural weapons to begin with (which a human, even with Catfolk Exemplar, does not, she only has the two claws, you'd need another source for the third).

Additionally, he somewhat misleadingly writes the Rake attacks out in the block with the iteratives. Dire Tigers only get the 3rd and 4th claw attacks as part of a Rake, which can only be done on a target they began the round grappling, and cannot be done in the same round the target is grappled.

Therefore, at level 9 for this build, the attack calculation for a full pounce should be

Unarmed Strike (4d8+16)
Unarmed Strike (4d8+16)
Bite (2d6+8)
Claw (4d4+8)
Claw (4d4+8)

Which is still a lot of damage, but is 8d4 + 48 damage LESS than the original calculations.

As an aside, Warcat of Rull from the Belkzen Hold books would be a better cat choice. It's naturally huge, with 15' reach, and has both Rend and Trample instead of Rake, which adds more damage upfront.


Any weapon used with Flurry of Blows gets full Strength though, yes? So even if you did mix manufactured weapons in a FoB with claws, the claws would still get full, not half. Sadly the -5 would still apply. Note I am not talking about Flurry + Natural Attacks.

P.S. Shortest threadomancy I've seen in a while. Not bad. :)

Liberty's Edge

No, if you used the claws in a Flurry, you would be able to use them as primary attacks at the full STR and with no BAB penalty, as they count fully as monk weapons per Feral Combat Training. The Bite however would not, as Feral Combat Training is specific to a chosen form of natural attack; in this case the claw.

Using Flurry of Blows at level 9, you would get your two BAB iteratives, and two additional attacks, in any combination of unarmed strike or claw, all at -2. Hell you could flurry with four claw attacks if you wanted to, although that would be silly, since monk unarmed strikes at that level deal more damage than the claws do no matter what spells or feats you take; anything you would do to increase claw damage would also apply to the unarmed strikes.

However, there is a glaring flaw with that in this particular build, namely that the Master of Many Styles Archetype gives up Flurry of Blows; the ability to use both Janni Rush for the extra damage dice and Dragon Style+Dragon Ferocity for the "I can charge anywhere through anything and hit twice as hard doing it" is really core to this kind of build.

EDIT: Indeed, I would think the seperation of Fuse Style and Flurry would be very much intentional. A four attack flurry, all at double STR and double dmg dice with only -2 To hit, would be really quite something even before you mess around with Enlarge Person or Strong Jaw/Impact.


Really wish they hadn't nerfed FCT to remove the damage boosting effect. It was probably the only thing that made it a decent feat.

Liberty's Edge

It's basically just a feat tax now IMO, to slow down power progression of builds like this.
Hypothetically, if you had a BBG who was, say, a dragon monk, he'd still need to take FCT to do cool monk stuff with his natural attacks. A bit silly, if you ask me; I'll often simply give simple feats like that for free when I DM homebrew.


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Just to correct a few points made by Sir Vague:

Sir Vague wrote:
Claws are natural weapons, and unarmed strikes are considered manufactured weapons. Feral combat training lets you use claws in a flurry of blows, and apply monk feats to them, but it does not suddenly give you six full STR iteratives at level 9.

Monk Unarmed strikes are considered BOTH natural and manufactured weapons. Since you would be using Unarmed as your Primary strikes, the natural weapon attacks are secondary giving them half strength. As such...

Sir Vague wrote:
You also can't actually take Multi-Attack without having three natural weapons to begin with (which a human, even with Catfolk Exemplar, does not, she only has the two claws, you'd need another source for the third).

You do in fact have three natural weapons so you DO qualify for the Multi Attack Feat.

Sir Vague wrote:
Additionally, he somewhat misleadingly writes the Rake attacks out in the block with the iteratives. Dire Tigers only get the 3rd and 4th claw attacks as part of a Rake, which can only be done on a target they began the round grappling, and cannot be done in the same round the target is grappled.

The guide assumes you are pouncing as part of this attack. Rakes can be executed as part of a pounce without the grappling requirement

(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rule s/#Pounce_Ex)

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