Would a feat acquired via Quinggong Monk be legal as a pre-req?


Rules Questions


If I were to swap out Slow Fall for Power Attack (for instance), would that then satisfy the pre-requisite for later feats that require Power Attack?


Yes, why wouldn't it?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Yes, why wouldn't it?

Because its not technically 'always on'. Just looking for some kind of official ruling, unassailable logic or precedent I can point to if it comes up.


It's a bit questionable, but the short of it is that you can select the feat, but you can only use it while the prerequisites are being met. So, if you don't have power attack active then you also can't benefit from the feats that have it as a prerequisite.


It would fall under the same logical conclusion as the Barbarian with 12 Strength taking the Power Attack feat. Yes, he can have it. It only functions while raging.

So, for the Monk, if he spent the Ki to activate power attack for a round, he could use feats that have Power Attack as a pre-req for a round.

The Exchange

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

It would fall under the same logical conclusion as the Barbarian with 12 Strength taking the Power Attack feat. Yes, he can have it. It only functions while raging.

So, for the Monk, if he spent the Ki to activate power attack for a round, he could use feats that have Power Attack as a pre-req for a round.

The question isn't "could he use the feat" it's "could he qualify to take the feat at all?" You must meet the prerequisites to learn a feat. And Wiggz is asking about a feat that has Power Attack as a prerequisite.

No is the ruling all the PFS GMs I know (including myself) use. While the time to learn a feat from leveling isn't quantified, it doesn't seem to be one round or less (the time you have Power Attack from Qiggong).

What you can do is take Power Attack at level 3, swap out slow fall for the ki power "Power Attack" at level 4, take the feat that has Power Attack as a prerequisite at level 5, then retrain out of the Power Attack feat.

Grand Lodge

Belafon wrote:
TGMaxMaxer wrote:

It would fall under the same logical conclusion as the Barbarian with 12 Strength taking the Power Attack feat. Yes, he can have it. It only functions while raging.

So, for the Monk, if he spent the Ki to activate power attack for a round, he could use feats that have Power Attack as a pre-req for a round.

The question isn't "could he use the feat" it's "could he qualify to take the feat at all?" You must meet the prerequisites to learn a feat. And Wiggz is asking about a feat that has Power Attack as a prerequisite.

No is the ruling all the PFS GMs I know (including myself) use. While the time to learn a feat from leveling isn't quantified, it doesn't seem to be one round or less (the time you have Power Attack from Qiggong).

What you can do is take Power Attack at level 3, swap out slow fall for the ki power "Power Attack" at level 4, take the feat that has Power Attack as a prerequisite at level 5, then retrain out of the Power Attack feat.

I don't think that would work, sinc eth eQi Gong version isn't always active, so it may not allow you to bypass one of the feat retraining rules:

Quote:
The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.

If you got the feat from a source that was always-on, sure, you would do that, but since it is, in this case, still serving as a prerequisite, I don't think it could be retrained.

Example:
Someone with Weapon Finesse, and some feat dependent on it, takes a level of Unchained Rogue. they could retrain that earlier Weapon Finesse, since it is replaced by the always-on version gained as a bonus feat from Unchained Rogue.


If a barbarian with 12 Str can take power attack based on being able to rage for x rounds per day, and thus qualify, then a monk who has it as a Ki power for X rounds a day can do the same thing. (I am currently looking for the link to that thread, as it was clarified that he could take the feat but only use it while raging)

However, like I said, the monk could only use the feats with PA as a prereq on rounds that he burned ki for PA as well.

Grand Lodge

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

If a barbarian with 12 Str can take power attack based on being able to rage for x rounds per day, and thus qualify, then a monk who has it as a Ki power for X rounds a day can do the same thing. (I am currently looking for the link to that thread, as it was clarified that he could take the feat but only use it while raging)

However, like I said, the monk could only use the feats with PA as a prereq on rounds that he burned ki for PA as well.

I would like to see that link, please, as, otherwise, how do you have the prereq "long" enough to learn the feat?

After all, does that mean that a third level Wizard with second level spells, and an 11+ Dex could learn TWF, since he can grant himself a 15+ Dex for a few minutes for each of his second level spell slots using Cat's Grace? Or a 9+ Str and Bull's Strength, for Power Attack.


Since no one has posted the relevant text yet:

Quote:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

To summarize the question is: "what qualifies as having an indicated feature (in the above examples either a feat or ability score)." Is it the ability to gain said feat or ability score (without further leveling obviously since you must 'have' the indicated feature)? Or is it possessing the feat or ability score passively?

There's nothing in the rules providing a concrete argument either way (that I can find) and every argument I can think of has glaring holes.

From a play perspective most GM's I've played with are flexible and would allow it; I would personally allow the OP's example as being reasonable, but I'm not entirely certain where I'd draw the line.


Regarding OP's question:

Ki Power, Feats: wrote:
These ki powers duplicate the effects of specific feats. A monk does not need to qualify for a feat to select it as a ki power. For example, a qinggong monk can select Spring Attack as a ki power even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites for selecting Spring Attack as a feat. Activating one of these ki powers is a free action on the monk’s turn; until the start of her next turn, the monk is treated as if she had that feat. Some of these ki powers that duplicate feats may also be activated as an immediate action; these powers are noted in the ki powers list.

A strict reading here would be that the ki powers do not ever give the monk the feat in question, they simply duplicate the effects. Wording's a bit unclear.

A loose reading here would be that you do actually gain the feat for one round. In this instance there's no clear right or wrong answer, it's GM's discretion.

If the ability read something like 'the monk gains the feat, but must activate it using a point of ki to gain the feat's effects' there would be no room for interpretation and it would qualify for other feats.

The Exchange

kinevon wrote:

I don't think that would work, sinc eth eQi Gong version isn't always active, so it may not allow you to bypass one of the feat retraining rules:

Quote:
The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.

If you got the feat from a source that was always-on, sure, you would do that, but since it is, in this case, still serving as a prerequisite, I don't think it could be retrained.

Example:
Someone with Weapon Finesse, and some feat dependent on it, takes a level of Unchained Rogue. they could retrain that earlier Weapon Finesse, since it is replaced by the always-on version gained as a bonus feat from Unchained Rogue.

You are correct. I was referring to the UCampaign FAQ on retraining a class level that resulted in losing a prerequisite without referring to the original text.


The Fly skill has wording prohibiting training until you can reliably fly. The Witch's Fly hex is sufficient a 5*1-minute fly-spell-like effects. I think there was a post by JJ or SKR, or perhaps a FAQ to that effect. I was clearly not always-on. By this example, a sometimes-on feat would be OK for me as GM.

/cevah

Grand Lodge

Cevah wrote:

The Fly skill has wording prohibiting training until you can reliably fly. The Witch's Fly hex is sufficient a 5*1-minute fly-spell-like effects. I think there was a post by JJ or SKR, or perhaps a FAQ to that effect. I was clearly not always-on. By this example, a sometimes-on feat would be OK for me as GM.

/cevah

I can see your point, but I would tend to disagree, myself.

An ability, even just usable once per day for 3 minutes flight time, like the Fly from Celestial Armor, is something you could use to train a skill.

But, is something you get for a single round at a time, for only X*Ki times a day, sufficient to learn how to manipulate it well enough to get a feat from it?


kinevon wrote:
Cevah wrote:

The Fly skill has wording prohibiting training until you can reliably fly. The Witch's Fly hex is sufficient a 5*1-minute fly-spell-like effects. I think there was a post by JJ or SKR, or perhaps a FAQ to that effect. I was clearly not always-on. By this example, a sometimes-on feat would be OK for me as GM.

/cevah

I can see your point, but I would tend to disagree, myself.

An ability, even just usable once per day for 3 minutes flight time, like the Fly from Celestial Armor, is something you could use to train a skill.

But, is something you get for a single round at a time, for only X*Ki times a day, sufficient to learn how to manipulate it well enough to get a feat from it?

Celestial Armor is CL5, therefore 5 minutes of fly. :-)

While I agree a few rounds are not likely enough, PF tends to be binary in its tests: "can you do this" and not "can you do enough of this".

/cevah


kinevon wrote:


I can see your point, but I would tend to disagree, myself.

An ability, even just usable once per day for 3 minutes flight time, like the Fly from Celestial Armor, is something you could use to train a skill.

But, is something you get for a single round at a time, for only X*Ki times a day, sufficient to learn how to manipulate it well enough to get a feat from it?

I believe so, as in practical terms you are learning how to use the thing that you can do for x rounds/day better. If you aren't using that ability you can't use the dependent feat.

It is self regulating and self limiting, so I don't see why some are so strongly opposed to it.


Trekkie90909 wrote:

Regarding OP's question:

Ki Power, Feats: wrote:
These ki powers duplicate the effects of specific feats. A monk does not need to qualify for a feat to select it as a ki power. For example, a qinggong monk can select Spring Attack as a ki power even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites for selecting Spring Attack as a feat. Activating one of these ki powers is a free action on the monk’s turn; until the start of her next turn, the monk is treated as if she had that feat. Some of these ki powers that duplicate feats may also be activated as an immediate action; these powers are noted in the ki powers list.

A strict reading here would be that the ki powers do not ever give the monk the feat in question, they simply duplicate the effects. Wording's a bit unclear.

A loose reading here would be that you do actually gain the feat for one round. In this instance there's no clear right or wrong answer, it's GM's discretion.

If the ability read something like 'the monk gains the feat, but must activate it using a point of ki to gain the feat's effects' there would be no room for interpretation and it would qualify for other feats.

Whether you "actually" have the feat or not is a moot point since it states you are treated as if you have the feat. If you are "treated as if" you have the feat, that is functionally the same as having the feat. If you say that you can't use the feat as a prereq because you are only "treated as if" you have it, then you can't actually use the feat because you don't "actually" have the feat, you're only "treated as if" you have it and the rules state you must "have" the feat in order to use it.

Grand Lodge

Kazaan wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:

Regarding OP's question:

Ki Power, Feats: wrote:
These ki powers duplicate the effects of specific feats. A monk does not need to qualify for a feat to select it as a ki power. For example, a qinggong monk can select Spring Attack as a ki power even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites for selecting Spring Attack as a feat. Activating one of these ki powers is a free action on the monk’s turn; until the start of her next turn, the monk is treated as if she had that feat. Some of these ki powers that duplicate feats may also be activated as an immediate action; these powers are noted in the ki powers list.

A strict reading here would be that the ki powers do not ever give the monk the feat in question, they simply duplicate the effects. Wording's a bit unclear.

A loose reading here would be that you do actually gain the feat for one round. In this instance there's no clear right or wrong answer, it's GM's discretion.

If the ability read something like 'the monk gains the feat, but must activate it using a point of ki to gain the feat's effects' there would be no room for interpretation and it would qualify for other feats.

Whether you "actually" have the feat or not is a moot point since it states you are treated as if you have the feat. If you are "treated as if" you have the feat, that is functionally the same as having the feat. If you say that you can't use the feat as a prereq because you are only "treated as if" you have it, then you can't actually use the feat because you don't "actually" have the feat, you're only "treated as if" you have it and the rules state you must "have" the feat in order to use it.

Did you not read the whole thing you quoted? Here's the pertinent bit exactly before and qualifying the part you cherry picked.

Quote:
until the start of her next turn, the monk is treated as if she had that feat

So your stance is that having a feat (and being treated as having that feat) for one round is prereq enough to get later feats that require it? I don't believe if it is, if you do that's your prerogative but I don't believe that's what you quoted says at all.


So how is the barbarian using Power Attack with Strength 12 any different than this?

Unless there is some way it is, I just don't see how the Power Attack quinggong monk could use Improved Bull Rush whenever she has PA.

Grand Lodge

bigrig107 wrote:

So how is the barbarian using Power Attack with Strength 12 any different than this?

Unless there is some way it is, I just don't see how the Power Attack quinggong monk could use Improved Bull Rush whenever she has PA.

Unless I missed it upthread, no one has actually provided a link that says barbs can actually do that.


There's one that says that Alchemists can take INA for claws when they only have them during Feral Mutagen, which is just as good.

I am still looking for the thread on the Barb taking Power Attack with 12 Str since he can use it while raging.

It was an old thread because the answer came from SKR, I think.

Grand Lodge

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

There's one that says that Alchemists can take INA for claws when they only have them during Feral Mutagen, which is just as good.

I am still looking for the thread on the Barb taking Power Attack with 12 Str since he can use it while raging.

It was an old thread because the answer came from SKR, I think.

Is there? (I.e that's something directly relevant and you should link it)


The quote from SKR in this thread is not the one I was looking for with the Barb, but the same answer he gave there.

There are a ton of Barb threads and I have gone through about 100 trying to filter for it...

Alchemist Thread

Grand Lodge

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

The quote from SKR in this thread is not the one I was looking for with the Barb, but the same answer he gave there.

There are a ton of Barb threads and I have gone through about 100 trying to filter for it...

Alchemist Thread

So that post was four years ago and a FAQ/errata still hasn't been made about it. So it's a perfectly fine house rule, but it's not a rule.


There were a lot of FAQ/Errata that never got done from 4 years ago.

However, I can't find the one where he said the same thing about the barbarian with 12 Str taking PA since he qualifies while raging.

Grand Lodge

TGMaxMaxer wrote:
There were a lot of FAQ/Errata that never got done from 4 years ago.

Then they're not actually FAQ/Errata. I don't have any problem with telling someone at my table that they can use feats such as these temporarily, but saying it's within the rules just isn't true.


If you're really going to be pedantic about it, just say you used the feat at the moment you leveled up or you used a round of rage just as you leveled up and, thus, qualify for the new feat. But that just adds tedium to the game so it's better to just presume that if you can, reliably, gain access to the prerequisite by normal means, you satisfy the prereq. Of course, the whole situation would be aleviated if they changed it so you only need to satisfy prereqs to use a feat, not to take the feat. Then, a mid or low BAB class could take, say, Weapon Focus at lvl 1 and have it come "online" at lvl 2, rather than needing to wait until lvl 3 to take it.

Grand Lodge

Kazaan wrote:
If you're really going to be pedantic about it, just say you used the feat at the moment you leveled up or you used a round of rage just as you leveled up and, thus, qualify for the new feat. But that just adds tedium to the game so it's better to just presume that if you can, reliably, gain access to the prerequisite by normal means, you satisfy the prereq. Of course, the whole situation would be aleviated if they changed it so you only need to satisfy prereqs to use a feat, not to take the feat. Then, a mid or low BAB class could take, say, Weapon Focus at lvl 1 and have it come "online" at lvl 2, rather than needing to wait until lvl 3 to take it.

I'm not being pedantic about it. And what you're saying doesn't fall in line with the rules either. There's already established precedent for ability scores having to be permanent before they qualify for such things--and to have a permanent ability score increase you need to have it for a period of 24 hours. Like I said, you're welcomed to do whatever you want, but with all of the rules presented to us by every official means, there are none that support what the OP is asking.


claudekennilol wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
If you're really going to be pedantic about it, just say you used the feat at the moment you leveled up or you used a round of rage just as you leveled up and, thus, qualify for the new feat. But that just adds tedium to the game so it's better to just presume that if you can, reliably, gain access to the prerequisite by normal means, you satisfy the prereq. Of course, the whole situation would be aleviated if they changed it so you only need to satisfy prereqs to use a feat, not to take the feat. Then, a mid or low BAB class could take, say, Weapon Focus at lvl 1 and have it come "online" at lvl 2, rather than needing to wait until lvl 3 to take it.
I'm not being pedantic about it. And what you're saying doesn't fall in line with the rules either. There's already established precedent for ability scores having to be permanent before they qualify for such things--and to have a permanent ability score increase you need to have it for a period of 24 hours. Like I said, you're welcomed to do whatever you want, but with all of the rules presented to us by every official means, there are none that support what the OP is asking.

I don't see why Temporary changes things. From FAQ: "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." So it seems that temp scores do the same things as permanent ones. IMO, reliability should be the test, not it's permanence.


Weird that nobody has mentioned how Synthesists can already do this with ability scores.

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