| Tac-One |
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hi all, I've noticed that all of the many Thunder and Fang threads out there tend to bring up more questions then answers. I also notice that there are still some players unaware that some of the lingering questions have actually been addressed in the FAQs. So this is my attempt to try to amalgamate the most important of these into one thread in the hopes of both better understanding as well as some FAQ consideration.
THUNDER AND FANG
Thunder and Fang
You have mastered the ancient Shoanti Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.Prerequisites: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.
Special: This is a combat feat, and may be selected with class features that grant bonus combat feats.
THUNDER AND FANG QUESTIONS:
If a character wielding an Earth Breaker in one hand by virtue of the Thunder and Fang feat utilizes Power Attack, is it treated as a one handed weapon or a two handed weapon for how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on?If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9quw]
Can a Titan Mauler Barbarian with the Thunder and Fang feat wield a large earth breaker in one hand?
No.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9qf6
Can a character with the Thunder and Fang feat wield an Earth Breaker in both hands (since the sentence saying you can use an earth breaker as a one handed weapon is separate from the sentence indicating the other benefits which require a klar)?
???
Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat count as having the Improved Shield Bash feat for the purpose of prerequisite for other feats such as Shield Slam?
???
Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat treat the klar as a light weapon even when using it as a primary attack?
???
The Thunder and Fang feat states that it allows the character to use the klar as a light weapon. The description indicates it is treated as a light shield with shield spikes, which is a light weapon. Does a character without Thunder and Fang treat a klar in the off-hand as a one handed weapon or a light weapon?
???
EARTH BREAKER
EARTH BREAKER PRICE 40 GP TYPE martial
The crude metal of this massive hammer’s head ends in multiple blunt spikes that help concentrate the force of a powerful swing down into a smaller, more focused area, allowing it to smash through armor with greater ease. Due to the tremendous size and weight of its head, an earth breaker is poorly balanced, and requires two hands to properly lift and control.
Two Handed Melee Weapons
Earth breaker 40 gp 1d10 2d6 ×3 — 14 lbs. B —
EARTH BREAKER QUESTIONS
What fighter weapon group does the earth breaker belong to?
Hammers. (Ultimate Equipment, p.47)
KLAR
Klar
The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon composed of a blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker gecko. This type of spiked shield is detailed in The Inner Sea World Guide. Its statistics are summarized on the following table.
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Klar 12 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 6 lbs. S
Shields
Klar 12 gp +1 — –1 5% — — 6 lbs.
Klar
Klar: The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes.See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Klar 12 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 6 lbs. S
Klar: The klar functions as a light wooden or light steel shield when used to defend in combat.
Shields
Klar 12 gp +1 — –1 5% — — 6 lbs
KLAR PRICE 12 GP SHIELD BONUS +1
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.KLAR PRICE 12 GP TYPE: martial
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes. The klar’s shield entry appears on page 12.
KLAR QUESTIONS
For the love of god, could this item be more confusing?
Yes, but it would take a bit of work. :P
Do attacks with the klar have to be made off-handed?
No. Even if you are assuming klar attacks are shield bashes.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9oga
Can you dual wield two klars?
???
In the klar description, does the term "counts as a ... shield with armor spikes" or "is treated as an attack with shield spikes" mean that all attacks with the klar are shield bashes that do 1d6 slashing damage? Or is the 1d6 slashing damage for the klar when used as a weapon and a shield bash with a klar is 1d4 piercing?
???
As a klar is listed as a one handed weapon, can I wield one with two hands and get the 1.5x Strength bonus?
???
Is the short metal blade of the klar treated as shield spikes for purposes such as enchanting?
???
What would the damage be on a klar with the bashing enchant?
???
Can a klar be made from special materials (such as living steel)? If so, does it pay costs as a shield, as a weapon, or both? If so, can you make the "shield" and the "shield spikes / short metal blade" from different materials?
???
When creating a magical klar, do you have to pay the masterwork price of a shield, a weapon, both, or only the item category you wish to enchant?
???
Do feats designed for shields (Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master, etc) apply to klars?
???
If I want to drop my klar (to use my Earth Breaker two handed, for instance) does it take a move action (as per dropping a shield) or a free action (as per dropping a weapon)?
???
What fighter weapon group does the klar fall in, if any (specifically for PFS play)?
Listed as Blades, Heavy in Humans of Golarion but then omitted from Ultimate Equipment
If a Harrow Warden wields a klar (which they are proficient in), do they lose their monk AC bonus?
???
Would the Quick Draw feat allow you to "draw" a klar as a free action? If yes, would the klar count towards your Armour Class, or would it have to be "donned" as a move action?
???
Please feel free to suggest any questions I have missed or point me to any official answers to any of the posted questions.
| Byakko |
THUNDER AND FANG QUESTIONS:
Can a character with the Thunder and Fang feat wield an Earth Breaker in both hands (since the sentence saying you can use an earth breaker as a one handed weapon is separate from the sentence indicating the other benefits which require a klar)?
Sure, you can wield it in both hands if you possess the feat, but what relevance does that have? You can't really benefit from the Thunder and Fang feat if you're not wielding a Klar. (if you're using some shenanigan to get an additional arm... you're limited by 2Handed/Offhand combination rules as detailed in the FAQ and other threads)
Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat count as having the Improved Shield Bash feat for the purpose of prerequisite for other feats such as Shield Slam?
No. If it did, it would say so specifically.
Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat treat the klar as a light weapon even when using it as a primary attack?
The feat doesn't allow you to treat a klar as a light weapon for any purpose other than determining your Two-Weapon Fighting penalty.
The Thunder and Fang feat states that it allows the character to use the klar as a light weapon. The description indicates it is treated as a light shield with shield spikes, which is a light weapon. Does a character without Thunder and Fang treat a klar in the off-hand as a one handed weapon or a light weapon?
As a one handed weapon. See above.
KLAR QUESTIONS
For the love of god, could this item be more confusing?
Yes. See Scorpion Whip.
Do attacks with the klar have to be made off-handed?
No. They're one handed weapons.
Can you dual wield two klars?
Sure. They're one handed weapons.
In the klar description, does the term "counts as a ... shield with armor spikes" or "is treated as an attack with shield spikes" mean that all attacks with the klar are shield bashes that do 1d6 slashing damage? Or is the 1d6 slashing damage for the klar when used as a weapon and a shield bash with a klar is 1d4 piercing?
When used as a normal weapon it deals 1d6 slashing. When used to make a shield slam it deals 1d4 piercing. (for a medium creature)
As a klar is listed as a one handed weapon, can I wield one with two hands and get the 1.5x Strength bonus?
Yes, as long as you're treating it as a weapon and not performing a shield slam.
Is the short metal blade of the klar treated as shield spikes for purposes such as enchanting?
This one is tricky. I believe you can enchant the klar as a weapon normally, however depending on how you're using the klar, it may not be able to benefit from some/all of the enchantments you place on it. See below.
What would the damage be on a klar with the bashing enchant?
A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash.
Note that this only applies when you're using it to shield bash. If you're using it as a one-handed weapon, you don't benefit from the enchantment.
Can a klar be made from special materials (such as living steel)? If so, does it pay costs as a shield, as a weapon, or both? If so, can you make the "shield" and the "shield spikes / short metal blade" from different materials?
You're going to get variations when it comes to materials. I'd allow you to use special metal materials and would use the more expensive pricing option (the difference isn't worth arguing about).
When creating a magical klar, do you have to pay the masterwork price of a shield, a weapon, both, or only the item category you wish to enchant?
As above, I would just figure out the more expensive of the two (weapon vs shield) and just pay that, so as to prevent disputes. Perhaps someone else knows the official ruling for this.
Do feats designed for shields (Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master, etc) apply to klars?
Yes, as long as you're employing it as a shield or making a shield bash, etc.
If I want to drop my klar (to use my Earth Breaker two handed, for instance) does it take a move action (as per dropping a shield) or a free action (as per dropping a weapon)?
Other shields can also be used as weapons, yet still require a move action to drop. I'd rule that you need a move action to drop a klar as well, despite the ability to use it more directly as a weapon.
What fighter weapon group does the klar fall in, if any (specifically for PFS play)?
Listed as Blades, Heavy in Humans of Golarion but then omitted from Ultimate Equipment
It doesn't really strike me as being a heavy blade, but if that's the only rule on it, I suppose so. You could also probably count it as being in the close group, since it counts as a shield. Expect GM/table variation.
If a Harrow Warden wields a klar (which they are proficient in), do they lose their monk AC bonus?
It counts as a shield, so yes.
Would the Quick Draw feat allow you to "draw" a klar as a free action? If yes, would the klar count towards your Armour Class, or would it have to be "donned" as a move action?
I would require it to be donned as a shield to be used, as that's it's normal method of use.
Btw, you owe me a cookie for answering all these questions!
| Tac-One |
Thanks for the efforts Byakko! If only they were that easily answered, there wouldn't be such ongoing confusion.
THUNDER AND FANG QUESTIONS:
Can a character with the Thunder and Fang feat wield an Earth Breaker in both hands (since the sentence saying you can use an earth breaker as a one handed weapon is separate from the sentence indicating the other benefits which require a klar)?
Sure, you can wield it in both hands if you possess the feat, but what relevance does that have? You can't really benefit from the Thunder and Fang feat if you're not wielding a Klar. (if you're using some shenanigan to get an additional arm... you're limited by 2Handed/Offhand combination rules as detailed in the FAQ and other threads)
My language could be clearer. Some people believe T&F allows you to dual wield two earth breakers as the sentence that states you treat them as one handed weapons is seperate from the one that requires you to use a klar in your off hand.
Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat count as having the Improved Shield Bash feat for the purpose of prerequisite for other feats such as Shield Slam?
No. If it did, it would say so specifically.
Fair enough, but the mechanic of the feat are included in T&F and taking the feat would have no actual effect on a T&F fighter.
Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat treat the klar as a light weapon even when using it as a primary attack?
The feat doesn't allow you to treat a klar as a light weapon for any purpose other than determining your Two-Weapon Fighting penalty.
There is some debate about this depending on the source, but this does make some sense. So the klar could not be enchanted with anything that applies to light weapons or effected by feats that affect light weapons?
The Thunder and Fang feat states that it allows the character to use the klar as a light weapon. The description indicates it is treated as a light shield with shield spikes, which is a light weapon. Does a character without Thunder and Fang treat a klar in the off-hand as a one handed weapon or a light weapon?
As a one handed weapon. See above.
Understood, but the entries say to treat the klar as a light spikes shield, which are light weapons. So is the klar an exception to this?
KLAR QUESTIONS
For the love of god, could this item be more confusing?
Yes. See Scorpion Whip.
I hear ya brother!
Do attacks with the klar have to be made off-handed?
No. They're one handed weapons.
They only just recently rules that shields can make non-off handed attacks. I'm clarifying whether klars are included in that ruling or not.
Can you dual wield two klars?
Sure. They're one handed weapons.
So are shields and there is still debate as to whether or not they can be dual wielded.
| Tac-One |
In the klar description, does the term "counts as a ... shield with armor spikes" or "is treated as an attack with shield spikes" mean that all attacks with the klar are shield bashes that do 1d6 slashing damage? Or is the 1d6 slashing damage for the klar when used as a weapon and a shield bash with a klar is 1d4 piercing?
When used as a normal weapon it deals 1d6 slashing. When used to make a shield slam it deals 1d4 piercing. (for a medium creature)
Except that at least one source states that ALL attacks made with klars are shield bashes. None of the sources specifically state that it can be used to make a slashing attack or a shield bash attack.
Could it not be just as likely that the RAI was that a klar is a light spiked shield that does 1d6 slashing damage with a shield bash?
As a klar is listed as a one handed weapon, can I wield one with two hands and get the 1.5x Strength bonus?
Yes, as long as you're treating it as a weapon and not performing a shield slam.
See above. Can you use two hands to make a 1.5 strength shield bash?
Is the short metal blade of the klar treated as shield spikes for purposes such as enchanting?
This one is tricky. I believe you can enchant the klar as a weapon normally, however depending on how you're using the klar, it may not be able to benefit from some/all of the enchantments you place on it. See below.
There is a lot of really good debate on this, with no clear answer. Depending upon interpretations, one could theoretically enchant a klar as two weapons and a shield (short blade, spikes, shield)!
What would the damage be on a klar with the bashing enchant?
A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash.
Note that this only applies when you're using it to shield bash. If you're using it as a one-handed weapon, you don't benefit from the enchantment.
This assumes the presumption that the klar can be used separately to attack and to shield bash is correct and that the entry from the Inner Sea Guide (that all attacks are treated as an attack with shield spikes) is incorrect. If it is supposed to be a 1d6 shield bash, would bashing not result in a 2d6 slashing attack?
Can a klar be made from special materials (such as living steel)? If so, does it pay costs as a shield, as a weapon, or both? If so, can you make the "shield" and the "shield spikes / short metal blade" from different materials?
You're going to get variations when it comes to materials. I'd allow you to use special metal materials and would use the more expensive pricing option (the difference isn't worth arguing about).
Variation = bad for PFS! :) One could make a compelling argument that I can make the "shield part" of the klar out of any special wood materials. Some people argue that a special material klar would have to pay the price for BOTH a weapon and a shield (not the higher of the two).
When creating a magical klar, do you have to pay the masterwork price of a shield, a weapon, both, or only the item category you wish to enchant?
As above, I would just figure out the more expensive of the two (weapon vs shield) and just pay that, so as to prevent disputes. Perhaps someone else knows the official ruling for this.
There are some really good arguments that you only have to enchant it as a shield, there are also some that argue you have to do it as both. If I paid the MW cost for it as a weapon only, would you have a problem with me enchanting it as both a shield and a weapon?
Do feats designed for shields (Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master, etc) apply to klars?
Yes, as long as you're employing it as a shield or making a shield bash, etc.
See the above premise of all attacks being shield bashes. Assuming your interpretation, how would you apply Shield Slam to a non-T&F character attacking with a klar?
If I want to drop my klar (to use my Earth Breaker two handed, for instance) does it take a move action (as per dropping a shield) or a free action (as per dropping a weapon)?
Other shields can also be used as weapons, yet still require a move action to drop. I'd rule that you need a move action to drop a klar as well, despite the ability to use it more directly as a weapon.
Now we start getting into the craziness of being two things in one. Your interpretation seems to be that it is is the worse of both for some things, the best of both for some things, and both for some things. I agree that this interpretation makes sense, but it is difficult to reconcile with all the RAW.
What fighter weapon group does the klar fall in, if any (specifically for PFS play)?
Listed as Blades, Heavy in Humans of Golarion but then omitted from Ultimate Equipment
It doesn't really strike me as being a heavy blade, but if that's the only rule on it, I suppose so. You could also probably count it as being in the close group, since it counts as a shield. Expect GM/table variation.
Variation = bad in PFS! :( AFAIK, UE came out after Humans of Golarian, so does it serve as the most up to date version? Klars could be treated as close if you treat them as spiked shields.
If a Harrow Warden wields a klar (which they are proficient in), do they lose their monk AC bonus?
It counts as a shield, so yes.
Makes sense, but why give someone proficiency in something that negates one of their signature abilities?
Would the Quick Draw feat allow you to "draw" a klar as a free action? If yes, would the klar count towards your Armour Class, or would it have to be "donned" as a move action?
I would require it to be donned as a shield to be used, as that's it's normal method of use.
Again, this makes sense. However, again it leads to some weirdness. Like, can a draw it as a free action and use it as a weapon without the AC bonus for the shield? Or are you saying that I have to don it as a shield in order to use it as a weapon?
Btw, you owe me a cookie for answering all these questions!
If any of your answers lead to actual FAQ / official rulings, I will gladly send cookies! :)
James Risner
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I've yet to see them respond to "wall of text" FAQ requests. Pick one question and ask it succinctly.
This feat needs FAQ because I've seen two 900+ post threads passionately debate the meaning of this feat and I don't think there is anything short of a FAQ will resolve the divide between the sides.
| graystone |
I've yet to see them respond to "wall of text" FAQ requests. Pick one question and ask it succinctly.
This feat needs FAQ because I've seen two 900+ post threads passionately debate the meaning of this feat and I don't think there is anything short of a FAQ will resolve the divide between the sides.
This is one of the very few times I'll 100% agree with James. You get more than 2 or 3 questions and it doesn't go anywhere. Pick your fight and go with a few questions and go with those. If/when THAT gets answered, add some more as needed.
On the second point, it always seemed a pretty straight forward feat to me. That said, I've seen the same threads James has and an FAQ is most likely the only way to stop them.
| Tac-One |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the feedback folks,
The purpose of the thread was to try to compile all the various questions and answers in one place. However I understand it is unlikely the devs are going to answer all these questions. Hence the single question at the end.
Is the klar meant to be a light spiked shield that happens to be one handed (barring any modifying feats) and deals 1d6 slashing damage upon a shield bash?
That's the one I FAQed as I think it would resolve the most questions overall.