Tac-One's page

The armour bonus is not stacking, it is increasing.

Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

If you take the interpretation that the bonus is from the same source and cannot be applied more then once, then the power is useless. Since you have to have at least a +1 magical armour bonus on the armour in order to put bloodthirsty on it, then the armour already has a magical armour bonus. Therefore, according to the "one time only" intepretation, you could not apply the second +1 armour bonus (since they are of the same type and do not stack).

On the other hand, if you accept that "increases by 1 for 1 round after its wearer deals damage" simply means what it says and the "armour bonus" is not being applied multiple times but simply increases to the stated number, then stacking is not an issue.

This not only meets the clearly defined RAI of "with each wound the wearer inflicts", but it actually makes the enhancement worth purchasing for a select group of individuals.

You still have to hit with multiple attacks and it still goes away at the end of your turn. That means it is a +2 enhancement bonus that does not work at all before your first set of full attacks, does not work when you can't get into melee, does not work when you are slowed, etc, etc.

On the other hand, if you are a raging character with multiple attacks and are able to hit with all of them, you could have a temporary armour bonus of perhaps +15 on your medium or light armour while raging. Giving you an AC of perhaps 45 (assuming you are focused on AC)? Something easily achievable by other AC focused characters at your level.

Not sure why people feel the need to try to restrict what was obviously meant to be an option for a very select group of characters and is made completely clear in the flavor description and only unclear in the rules section if you make multiple rules assumptions.

Thanks for the feedback folks,
The purpose of the thread was to try to compile all the various questions and answers in one place. However I understand it is unlikely the devs are going to answer all these questions. Hence the single question at the end.

Is the klar meant to be a light spiked shield that happens to be one handed (barring any modifying feats) and deals 1d6 slashing damage upon a shield bash?

That's the one I FAQed as I think it would resolve the most questions overall.

Actually, I would amend that to:

Is the klar meant to be a light spiked shield that happens to be one handed (barring any modifying feats) and does 1d6 slashing damage upon a shield bash?

If the developers were only going to clarify one thing about the klar, my question would be:

Is the klar meant to be a light spiked shield that happens to do 1d6 slashing damage upon a shield bash?

If the answer was yes, this would address a great many of the debates out there!

In the klar description, does the term "counts as a ... shield with armor spikes" or "is treated as an attack with shield spikes" mean that all attacks with the klar are shield bashes that do 1d6 slashing damage? Or is the 1d6 slashing damage for the klar when used as a weapon and a shield bash with a klar is 1d4 piercing?

When used as a normal weapon it deals 1d6 slashing. When used to make a shield slam it deals 1d4 piercing. (for a medium creature)

Except that at least one source states that ALL attacks made with klars are shield bashes. None of the sources specifically state that it can be used to make a slashing attack or a shield bash attack.

Could it not be just as likely that the RAI was that a klar is a light spiked shield that does 1d6 slashing damage with a shield bash?

As a klar is listed as a one handed weapon, can I wield one with two hands and get the 1.5x Strength bonus?

Yes, as long as you're treating it as a weapon and not performing a shield slam.

See above. Can you use two hands to make a 1.5 strength shield bash?

Is the short metal blade of the klar treated as shield spikes for purposes such as enchanting?

This one is tricky. I believe you can enchant the klar as a weapon normally, however depending on how you're using the klar, it may not be able to benefit from some/all of the enchantments you place on it. See below.

There is a lot of really good debate on this, with no clear answer. Depending upon interpretations, one could theoretically enchant a klar as two weapons and a shield (short blade, spikes, shield)!

What would the damage be on a klar with the bashing enchant?

A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash.
Note that this only applies when you're using it to shield bash. If you're using it as a one-handed weapon, you don't benefit from the enchantment.

This assumes the presumption that the klar can be used separately to attack and to shield bash is correct and that the entry from the Inner Sea Guide (that all attacks are treated as an attack with shield spikes) is incorrect. If it is supposed to be a 1d6 shield bash, would bashing not result in a 2d6 slashing attack?

Can a klar be made from special materials (such as living steel)? If so, does it pay costs as a shield, as a weapon, or both? If so, can you make the "shield" and the "shield spikes / short metal blade" from different materials?

You're going to get variations when it comes to materials. I'd allow you to use special metal materials and would use the more expensive pricing option (the difference isn't worth arguing about).

Variation = bad for PFS! :) One could make a compelling argument that I can make the "shield part" of the klar out of any special wood materials. Some people argue that a special material klar would have to pay the price for BOTH a weapon and a shield (not the higher of the two).

When creating a magical klar, do you have to pay the masterwork price of a shield, a weapon, both, or only the item category you wish to enchant?

As above, I would just figure out the more expensive of the two (weapon vs shield) and just pay that, so as to prevent disputes. Perhaps someone else knows the official ruling for this.

There are some really good arguments that you only have to enchant it as a shield, there are also some that argue you have to do it as both. If I paid the MW cost for it as a weapon only, would you have a problem with me enchanting it as both a shield and a weapon?

Do feats designed for shields (Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master, etc) apply to klars?

Yes, as long as you're employing it as a shield or making a shield bash, etc.

See the above premise of all attacks being shield bashes. Assuming your interpretation, how would you apply Shield Slam to a non-T&F character attacking with a klar?

If I want to drop my klar (to use my Earth Breaker two handed, for instance) does it take a move action (as per dropping a shield) or a free action (as per dropping a weapon)?

Other shields can also be used as weapons, yet still require a move action to drop. I'd rule that you need a move action to drop a klar as well, despite the ability to use it more directly as a weapon.

Now we start getting into the craziness of being two things in one. Your interpretation seems to be that it is is the worse of both for some things, the best of both for some things, and both for some things. I agree that this interpretation makes sense, but it is difficult to reconcile with all the RAW.

What fighter weapon group does the klar fall in, if any (specifically for PFS play)?

Listed as Blades, Heavy in Humans of Golarion but then omitted from Ultimate Equipment
It doesn't really strike me as being a heavy blade, but if that's the only rule on it, I suppose so. You could also probably count it as being in the close group, since it counts as a shield. Expect GM/table variation.

Variation = bad in PFS! :( AFAIK, UE came out after Humans of Golarian, so does it serve as the most up to date version? Klars could be treated as close if you treat them as spiked shields.

If a Harrow Warden wields a klar (which they are proficient in), do they lose their monk AC bonus?

It counts as a shield, so yes.

Makes sense, but why give someone proficiency in something that negates one of their signature abilities?

Would the Quick Draw feat allow you to "draw" a klar as a free action? If yes, would the klar count towards your Armour Class, or would it have to be "donned" as a move action?

I would require it to be donned as a shield to be used, as that's it's normal method of use.

Again, this makes sense. However, again it leads to some weirdness. Like, can a draw it as a free action and use it as a weapon without the AC bonus for the shield? Or are you saying that I have to don it as a shield in order to use it as a weapon?

Btw, you owe me a cookie for answering all these questions!

If any of your answers lead to actual FAQ / official rulings, I will gladly send cookies! :)

Thanks for the efforts Byakko! If only they were that easily answered, there wouldn't be such ongoing confusion.

THUNDER AND FANG QUESTIONS:

Can a character with the Thunder and Fang feat wield an Earth Breaker in both hands (since the sentence saying you can use an earth breaker as a one handed weapon is separate from the sentence indicating the other benefits which require a klar)?
Sure, you can wield it in both hands if you possess the feat, but what relevance does that have? You can't really benefit from the Thunder and Fang feat if you're not wielding a Klar. (if you're using some shenanigan to get an additional arm... you're limited by 2Handed/Offhand combination rules as detailed in the FAQ and other threads)

My language could be clearer. Some people believe T&F allows you to dual wield two earth breakers as the sentence that states you treat them as one handed weapons is seperate from the one that requires you to use a klar in your off hand.

Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat count as having the Improved Shield Bash feat for the purpose of prerequisite for other feats such as Shield Slam?

No. If it did, it would say so specifically.

Fair enough, but the mechanic of the feat are included in T&F and taking the feat would have no actual effect on a T&F fighter.

Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat treat the klar as a light weapon even when using it as a primary attack?

The feat doesn't allow you to treat a klar as a light weapon for any purpose other than determining your Two-Weapon Fighting penalty.

There is some debate about this depending on the source, but this does make some sense. So the klar could not be enchanted with anything that applies to light weapons or effected by feats that affect light weapons?

The Thunder and Fang feat states that it allows the character to use the klar as a light weapon. The description indicates it is treated as a light shield with shield spikes, which is a light weapon. Does a character without Thunder and Fang treat a klar in the off-hand as a one handed weapon or a light weapon?

As a one handed weapon. See above.

Understood, but the entries say to treat the klar as a light spikes shield, which are light weapons. So is the klar an exception to this?

KLAR QUESTIONS

For the love of god, could this item be more confusing?
Yes. See Scorpion Whip.

I hear ya brother!

Do attacks with the klar have to be made off-handed?

No. They're one handed weapons.

They only just recently rules that shields can make non-off handed attacks. I'm clarifying whether klars are included in that ruling or not.

Can you dual wield two klars?

Sure. They're one handed weapons.

So are shields and there is still debate as to whether or not they can be dual wielded.

Hi all, I've noticed that all of the many Thunder and Fang threads out there tend to bring up more questions then answers. I also notice that there are still some players unaware that some of the lingering questions have actually been addressed in the FAQs. So this is my attempt to try to amalgamate the most important of these into one thread in the hopes of both better understanding as well as some FAQ consideration.

THUNDER AND FANG

Thunder and Fang

You have mastered the ancient Shoanti Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)

Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.

Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.

Special: This is a combat feat, and may be selected with class features that grant bonus combat feats.

THUNDER AND FANG QUESTIONS:

Can a Titan Mauler Barbarian with the Thunder and Fang feat wield a large earth breaker in one hand?
No.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9qf6

Can a character with the Thunder and Fang feat wield an Earth Breaker in both hands (since the sentence saying you can use an earth breaker as a one handed weapon is separate from the sentence indicating the other benefits which require a klar)?
???

Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat count as having the Improved Shield Bash feat for the purpose of prerequisite for other feats such as Shield Slam?
???

Does a character with the Thunder and Fang feat treat the klar as a light weapon even when using it as a primary attack?
???

The Thunder and Fang feat states that it allows the character to use the klar as a light weapon. The description indicates it is treated as a light shield with shield spikes, which is a light weapon. Does a character without Thunder and Fang treat a klar in the off-hand as a one handed weapon or a light weapon?
???

EARTH BREAKER

EARTH BREAKER PRICE 40 GP TYPE martial

The crude metal of this massive hammer’s head ends in multiple blunt spikes that help concentrate the force of a powerful swing down into a smaller, more focused area, allowing it to smash through armor with greater ease. Due to the tremendous size and weight of its head, an earth breaker is poorly balanced, and requires two hands to properly lift and control.
Two Handed Melee Weapons
Earth breaker 40 gp 1d10 2d6 ×3 — 14 lbs. B —

EARTH BREAKER QUESTIONS

What fighter weapon group does the earth breaker belong to?
Hammers. (Ultimate Equipment, p.47)

KLAR

Klar

The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon composed of a blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker gecko. This type of spiked shield is detailed in The Inner Sea World Guide. Its statistics are summarized on the following table.
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Klar 12 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 6 lbs. S
Shields
Klar 12 gp +1 — –1 5% — — 6 lbs.

Klar

Klar: The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes.See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Klar 12 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 6 lbs. S
Klar: The klar functions as a light wooden or light steel shield when used to defend in combat.
Shields
Klar 12 gp +1 — –1 5% — — 6 lbs

KLAR PRICE 12 GP SHIELD BONUS +1

The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.

KLAR PRICE 12 GP TYPE: martial
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes. The klar’s shield entry appears on page 12.

KLAR QUESTIONS

For the love of god, could this item be more confusing?
Yes, but it would take a bit of work. :P

Do attacks with the klar have to be made off-handed?
No. Even if you are assuming klar attacks are shield bashes.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9oga

Can you dual wield two klars?
???

In the klar description, does the term "counts as a ... shield with armor spikes" or "is treated as an attack with shield spikes" mean that all attacks with the klar are shield bashes that do 1d6 slashing damage? Or is the 1d6 slashing damage for the klar when used as a weapon and a shield bash with a klar is 1d4 piercing?
???

As a klar is listed as a one handed weapon, can I wield one with two hands and get the 1.5x Strength bonus?
???

Is the short metal blade of the klar treated as shield spikes for purposes such as enchanting?
???

What would the damage be on a klar with the bashing enchant?
???

Can a klar be made from special materials (such as living steel)? If so, does it pay costs as a shield, as a weapon, or both? If so, can you make the "shield" and the "shield spikes / short metal blade" from different materials?
???

When creating a magical klar, do you have to pay the masterwork price of a shield, a weapon, both, or only the item category you wish to enchant?
???

Do feats designed for shields (Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master, etc) apply to klars?
???

If I want to drop my klar (to use my Earth Breaker two handed, for instance) does it take a move action (as per dropping a shield) or a free action (as per dropping a weapon)?
???

What fighter weapon group does the klar fall in, if any (specifically for PFS play)?
Listed as Blades, Heavy in Humans of Golarion but then omitted from Ultimate Equipment

If a Harrow Warden wields a klar (which they are proficient in), do they lose their monk AC bonus?
???

Would the Quick Draw feat allow you to "draw" a klar as a free action? If yes, would the klar count towards your Armour Class, or would it have to be "donned" as a move action?
???

Please feel free to suggest any questions I have missed or point me to any official answers to any of the posted questions.

Nearly all of the previous excel versions have a tab available for custom classes and archetypes, so you could add one of the new classes if it isn't available yet.

This may seem like a stupid question, but I have looked all over a myriad forums and can't seem to figure it out. Once you create a custom class, how do you actually APPLY the custom class to your character?

Also, did nobody ever set up a place for people to post up their own custom work?

I LOVE LOVE LOVE sCoreForge. However, starting a new Investigator has made me realize just how much I relied on it.

OK, how's this...PFS is RAW, except for its house rules laid down by its GM(Campaign staff).

Question asked previously: (1st post in thread)
"So... what to do with the money we make in the sessions? Can I make any use of it or do I simply donate it to the temple/orphanage of my choice and forget about it?"

Answer by Campaign Staff: (3rd post in thread)
"You donate it to charity."

There is your specific "house" rule that says you can not keep money earned on a chronicle.

So dream up your ways to be a millionaire Vow of "poverty" monk, it's not legal at a PFS table.

So, given that you are assuming that Mike Brock's answer (which in and of itself does not address the "on your person" issue) means that this donation to charity cannot result in any benefit whatsoever, how does one acquire their heirloom item or 6th item? Hell, how did you purchase your blanket, if, according to your interpretation all money must simply vaporize if it would belong to you?

Why specifically include the "on your person" phrase when simply leaving it out would clearly demonstrate that the RAI interpretation is the same as the one you are providing?

Do you honestly believe that one ki point per level is worth never being able to use magic items?

Restriction: The monk taking a vow of poverty must never own more than six possessions—a simple set of clothing, a pair of sandals or shoes, a bowl, a sack, a blanket, and any one other item. Five of these items must be of plain and simple make, though one can be of some value (often an heirloom of great personal significance to the monk). The monk can never keep more money or wealth on his person than he needs to feed, bathe, and shelter himself for 1 week in modest accommodations. He cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others. He is allowed to accept and use curative potions (or similar magical items where the item is consumed and is valueless thereafter) from other creatures.

The vow as written, puts the following restrictions upon the character:

That is it.
Nothing saying he cannot accumulate wealth not on your person.
Nothing saying that the sixth item is restricted in any way.

In fact, if we want to play Devil's Advocate, we could make some more RAW assumptions.
Since one of the 5 set items can have value, you could have a magical set of clothing, shoes, or sack in addition to your unrestricted 6th item.
Aside from the on your person restriction, there is nothing that expressly forbids me from having completely accessible bank accounts that allow me to withdraw funds and use them to purchase goods and services (keeping in mind the item restrictions) in game.
If I kill a creature and loot an item from it, I could use it to the end of the session (since it does not belong to others and I do not own it).

If you feel any of these are against RAI, that's all fine and good and I respect that. However, since PFS is RAW, I see no reason to make this vow more punitive than it already is by placing additional restrictions upon it

First, this has already been addressed. I won't link to Mike Brock's post, since it's the THIRD POST IN THIS THREAD. When the monk receives his reward, he donates it to charity.

Second, you are making a preposterous suggestion that this monk who has taken a vow of poverty is really just doing so in order to get some benefits while still keeping a stash of gold hidden away under his mattress. This is a role-playing game. If you are playing a monk who has taken a vow of poverty, that character is so devout and dedicated to his vows that such a concept would be completely foreign to him and would never enter his conscious thoughts. This isn't a question of law for him, this is a question of his world view, his self image, and his preternatural dedication which is so exquisite that in...

Mr. Brock's post does not address who the charity is, that there can be no benefit to making the donation, or how the monk is to have an item of value since he cannot loot or purchase it.

Are you suggesting that the inability to use most consumables, to have more than one magic item, to purchase spell services, to bribe people, or any of the other myriad restrictions placed on the player by this vow are insufficient and that suggesting a workable, by RAW, mechanic to have one decent item is somehow power-gaming!?!

I feel that it is completely reasonable to state that I donate all my treasure to my monastery at the end of each session. That money is not carried on my person and is therefore completely unavailable to me in session. However, at some point between sessions, I could call upon my monastery to gift to me a single item worth no more than the wealth I have donated in the past.

In the future, I could call upon them for a differnt item worth no more than the difference between the cost of the first item and all the wealth I have ever donated. Of course, to do so I would have to get rid of the first item.

This is still a massive penalty to pay for a mediocre benefit. It also breaks no explicit RAW restrictions. It also makes complete sense from a roleplay standpoint. It also explains why the term "on your person" was specifically included in the text (something your post fails to address).