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So if someone is going to play a pregen for a 1-5 scenario which pregen levels can they play as? If it's tier 1-2 could they play the lv4 pregen for out of tier gold? If it's tier 4-5 could the play the lv1 for out of tier gold? Or do you have to play the level that falls in the tier range if applicable?
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So you cannot use a lv4 pregen if the other 5 players are all lv1, even though you wouldn't be forcing the party to play up, correct?
Thats the generalish consensus: that the level 4 pregen is not not the appropriate level for a 1-2 game.
You absolutely can't get more gold out of running the pregen. If you apply it to a level 1 character it drops down to the level 1 gold. If you hold it in wait for your character to hit level 4 you're not gaining anything.
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So you cannot use a lv4 pregen if the other 5 players are all lv1, even though you wouldn't be forcing the party to play up, correct?Thats the generalish consensus: that the level 4 pregen is not not the appropriate level for a 1-2 game.
So are they not allowed to or is it just frowned upon? Is it my choice as GM if they can or not, or do I suggest they play the "appropriate" one but can't stop them from playing the other if they wanted? Is there a rule about this to show people it's not allowed?
I get that they can't get more gold out of it at lv1, but what about a lv 4 playing in a tier 6-7, that would get them extra gold if allowed right? Also playing the lv4 with lv1s they can make it easier to achieve success for the party by having a high level with them.
EDITED
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So are they not allowed to or is it just frowned upon?Is it my choice as GM if they can or not, or do I suggest they play the "appropriate" one but can't stop them from playing the other if they wanted? Is there a rule about this to show people it's not allowed?
From the guide
In cases in which
you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table
of three players, and play an official level-appropriate
pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum
table size of four PCs
If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply
wish to try out a new character class, you may choose to use
one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters
available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or from your
local event coordinator.
___
I read level appropriate as a level 1 in a subtier 1-2, a level 4 in a subtier 4-5, or 3-4. etc. That is the section I'd show someone that disagreed.
Some people read a level 4 being legal, and thus appropriate, for a level 1-5 so allow it.
I get that they can't get more gold out of it at lv1, but what about a lv 4 playing in a tier 6-7, that would get them extra gold if allowed right?
The way i read it if you played at subtier 6-7 you would have to use the level 7 pregen.
Also playing the lv4 with lv1s they can make it easier to achieve success for the party by having a high level with them.
EDITED
Kinda too easy. A level 4 cleric is a better fighter than the first level fighter.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
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Personally I read level appropriate as being legal for the level range of the scenario.
That's how I'd read it, too.
But apart from it being legal, I would advise players who want to play a pregen to play the level closest to the other characters.
Playing a level 4 pregen in a subtier 1-2 group, or a level 7 pregen in a subtier 3-4 group does two things:
- It draws lots of attention to the pregen because that character is simply better than the others.
- It might raise the APL enough to force the group to play up, putting the other characters in danger of death.
Playing a level 1 pregen in a subtier 4-5 group, or a level 4 pregen in a subtier 6-7 group does this:
- The character doesn't contribute much, because he's weaker than the others.
- The player hopes to gain a higher gold reward (oost gold) without actually risking character death because in the case of death the chronicle may be applied to an unused character number.
- It might lower the APL enough to force the group into the lower subtier, having the rest of the group gain less gold.
All this falls under the "Don't be a Jerk" rule at some point. So it's better to enforce choosing pregen levels within the subtier the rest of the party is going for.
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I think I see what nosig is going for, and in that situation, I agree. Essentially, if a table is between subtiers or close to being between subtiers, the choice of the pregen would push them up or down. In that case, it should be up for discussion at the table. So, APL 2.6 or something in a 1-5. Levels 4, 4, 2, 1, 1, ply pregen for example. A level 1 pregen could drop it to APL 2.16. A level 4 pregen could put it at APL 2.67, which would round up to 3 and play up because of 6 players. In situations like that, it should be left to the table to decide. If it's a table of all 1s and 2s, a level 4 pregen is probably not appropriate.
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I read 'level-appropriate' to mean 'with-in the tier of the scenario'.
Which means you can absolutely have a 4th level pregen in the 1-2 subtler, the same as you can have a 4th level character in it.
The GM should be the one making that call, while taking into account the wishes of the table.
So why on earth would anyone play a level 1 rather than a level 4 pregen in a level 1-5?
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you can absolutely have a 4th level pregen in the 1-2 subtler, the same as you can have a 4th level character in it.Except that you don't determine the level of the pregen until you determine the subtier.
You can have a 4th level PC in a 1-2 game, but you'd never have a 4th level pregen.
Nothing in the guide says when you determine the level of the pregen, and nothing in the guide says that the level of the pregen is not included in the calculation of the APL. Nothing explicitly says that it is (other than the instructions to "Divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party.") Which is why this is a table variation situation. To me, a pregen is a character in the party and should be included in the APL calculation.
I'm in agreement that you shouldn't have a 4th level pregen in a tier 1-2 game. But if having a 4th level pregen makes the APL such that the group plays at tier 4-5, I don't think there's anything in the guide to disallow that other than the individual GM's interpretation of "appropriate level." In the example I gave, APL 2.6 would round to 3 putting a group of 5 between subtiers. In Seasons 0-3, they would play down. In Season 4-6, they would play up with the four player adjustment. Add a level 1 pregen and both would play down (with no adjustment in seasons 4-6). Add a level 4 pregen and both would play up (still with the 4 player adjust in seasons 4-6). Both pregens are appropriate to the tiers in which they would be played.
If you don't factor the pregen's level into things, then it would remain APL 2.6, round to 3, only now you have 6 characters and a Season 0-3 would play up, even with a level 1 pregen, and that can't be right. So by what you're saying, that group would be forced to play up and the player would have to play the level 4 pregen? I guess I just don't see where there's an issue with the group deciding what tier they want to be at and letting the pregen be the appropriate level for that tier. If the group is uncomfortable about playing up with two level 1s and a level 2 in the group, let them pick the level 1 pregen to bring them down into the low tier.
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The answer to that question does not change the fact that it can happen.
The lack of a good answer is an indication that it can't happen.
The one that comes to mind is a player with a 1st level character that he does not want to risk in the high tier, but also does not want to wait to apply the chronicle. Nor would he want to reduce the gold.
There is no gold loss. Why do people keep insisting that there is? Its not an opinion, its a mathematical fact. There is no gold lost when you drop the gold to 500 and apply it to a level 1.
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The answer to that question does not change the fact that it can happen.The lack of a good answer is an indication that it can't happen.
How so?
The fact that one possibility is almost impossibly unlikely to occur does not restrict all possibilities. If you wish for pregens to be restricted to subtier, by all means petition to have the wording changed. "Subtier appropriate" rather than "level appropriate" would accomplish exactly what you seek.
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The answer to that question does not change the fact that it can happen.The lack of a good answer is an indication that it can't happen.How so?
The fact that one possibility is almost impossibly unlikely to occur does not restrict all possibilities. If you wish for pregens to be restricted to subtier, by all means petition to have the wording changed. "Subtier appropriate" rather than "level appropriate" would accomplish exactly what you seek.
if you wish it to be tier legal rather that level appropriate by all means petition to have the wording changed.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The rules for determining subtier use all the characters' levels in the calculation. If the pregen's level wasn't known yet, the calculation would involve a Not-a-Number. Then you could never determine subtier and get your game started.
By the way, wasn't there already a running thread on this exact same topic? The question is coming up often enough that just FAQing it and getting it over with might be best.
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My take on it is this.
1) When the GtOP says "level-appropriate", that means in-tier, not in-subtier, because subtier isn't determined yet. Determining subtier requires the pregen's level to be known.
2) If the rest of the group is clearly in a subtier, it's best for the pregen to follow. It'll be more fun and more fair. While it would be legal to play a level 4 barbarian pregen in a level 1 party, it would probably make the adventure less fun. And while someone bringing his "real" PC might even be level 5, that person may have the excuse of that character being a perfect fit for the adventure, being in-faction, or even being the player's only in-tier character. A pregen doesn't have those excuses.
3) When subtier isn't so clear, and the choice of pregen will influence subtier, then all the players together should try to reach a consensus on the level choice. If that fails, the GM decides what he thinks will be the best choice to let everyone have a good game.
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Anyway, are there some kind of extreme abuses happening, that this topic is coming up so often lately? I haven't seen anything like that happen so far; I've only seen good sportsmanship.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I think, this might actually be an issue, the GM shoud decide, and the scenario, the players, the level etc. really to matter.
Adding a level 4 Lem, to a party of level 2 characters should usually be fine (depending on the PCs obviously). There are a number of scenarios, where I might actually support the idea of a level 4 pregen with a lower level party, especially if they have just narrowly slipped into high tier with a 4 player adjustment.
Of course party size is also a factor, if you are the 7th player in a group playing up with 4 player adjustment, adding more power without compensation, could lessen the experience for the players.
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If we end up getting a rule something like this:
If the addition/ the use of a pregen would change the difficulty of the scenario (increasing or lowering the tier of the scenario) the other players have final say over the level of the pregen.
If the level of the pregen has no impact on the difficulty of the adventure (other than the fact that the table has an additional player) the GM has the final decision (but should ideally consider group composition and player opinions) .
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So if someone is going to play a pregen for a 1-5 scenario which pregen levels can they play as? If it's tier 1-2 could they play the lv4 pregen for out of tier gold? If it's tier 4-5 could the play the lv1 for out of tier gold? Or do you have to play the level that falls in the tier range if applicable?
The language in the guide is not 100% clear on this.
However, as a GM and VC, I advise everyone who asks me, to make sure that the level of the pregen matches the sub-tier otherwise being played as closely as possible. There are too many ways to abuse this if you start allowing folks to play whatever level pregen they want regardless of the APL otherwise.
Your example of allowing a level 1 pregen to play in a sub-tier 4-5, and then get the out of sub-tier gold for their new first level character would definitely be one such abuse.
I think using common sense with an eye toward the spirit of the rule and the integrity of the game is the best way to go. Anything that could artificially break the WBL without risk to the actual PC getting credit and/or would change the challenge of the scenario significantly, would certainly break the spirit of the rules and the integrity of the game. (i.e. A level 7 Kyra in a party that is otherwise all level 3 or 4 in a Tier 3-7 could significantly change the challenge level of the scenario and is not something that should be allowed.)
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Can a level 7 pregen play at tier 10-11? If so, are they an exception?
Answer that, you answer the OP.
This is not a fair analogy. Why? Because there isn't a level 10 or 11 pregen. In this case, the only legal pregen to play in a 7-11 is the level 7, therefore, regardless of tier, that is the level appropriate pregen.
But that does not mean that a level 4 is appropriate for a sub-tier 1-2 table even though its legal to play at that table. Being out of sub-tier actually means it is not level appropriate, despite being level legal.
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Can a level 7 pregen play at tier 10-11? If so, are they an exception?
Answer that, you answer the OP.
This is not a fair analogy. Why? Because there isn't a level 10 or 11 pregen. In this case, the only legal pregen to play in a 7-11 is the level 7, therefore, regardless of tier, that is the level appropriate pregen.
But that does not mean that a level 4 is appropriate for a sub-tier 1-2 table even though its legal to play at that table. Being out of sub-tier actually means it is not level appropriate, despite being level legal.
This is not correct, really.
Along with the level 7 pregen for sub-tier 10-11 of a 7-11 scenario, what about a 5-9? The only pregen available for play in that entire tier is the level 7 pregen, which is always out of sub-tier.
Pregens for PFS are levels 1, 4, & 7
Tiers for PFS are 1, 1-2, 1-5, 1-7, 3-7, 5-9, 7-11, and 12.
No pregens are legal for tier 12 games.
Level 1 pregens are legal for games played in tier 1, 1-2, 1-5, and 1-7
Level 4 pregens are legal for games played in tier 1-5, 1-7, and 3-7
Level 7 pregens are legal for games played in tiers 1-7, 3-7, 5-9, and 7-11
Which pregen is played, or subbed in to make a legal table, should be a joint decision, by players & GM. In most cases, in my experience, the pregen chosen will be the one who matches the sub-tier, if such a pregen exists. Sometimes, it doesn't. Sometimes, the pregen chosen by necessity changes the PCs chosen for the game.
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The point is, when there is a choice, play the pregen thats in the correct sub-tier being played.
In a 7-11 and a 5-9, there isn't a choice as to which pregen to play, so using those scenarios as an argument as to why you should be able to play a level 4 pregen in a sub-tier 1-2 table doesn't compute. For those two tiers, the appropriate level pregen is the level 7 since there is no other choice.
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I hope this never gets pinned down. There are many criteria for deciding which pre-gen is appropriate beyond just APL. The actual characters involved make a difference.
An example. There are four of us playing at Tier 3-7, again in Season 4, 5, or 6. The other characters are levels 3, 7, 7. I don’t have a character in tier so I play a pre-gen. If I play a level 4, our APL is 5, we are between subtiers, so we play down without the 4-player adjustment. If I play a level 7, our APL is 6, and we play in the 6-7 with the 4-player adjustment.
It might be better to play the high subtler in this case because it would mean that only one character is out of subtler instead of two characters out of subtler. But I’m not always comfortable risking the life of someone else’s 3rd-level character in a 6-7 game. It would really depend on how well that character is built and how well the party as a whole is composed.
Another example. There are five of us playing at Tier 1-5 table (Season 4, 5, or 6). The other characters are levels 1, 3, 3, 4. Again, I play a pre-gen. If I play the level 1, we play subtler 1-2, two of us are in tier and the other three are out of tier. If I play level 4, we play subtler 3-4 (with the 4-player adjustment), and (again) two of us are in tier and the other three are out of tier. As above, our decision should be based on how competent the other players are, how strong their builds are, and how well the party complement each other.