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I'm getting ready to play in an Iron Gods campaign, and decided on playing a goblin alchemist with the grenadier archetype.
Little did I know what a rules clusterbomb I'd be jumping into! In trying to find more information on how my little mad bomber would operate, I found dozens of (helpful and useful, but argumentative) threads that gave snippets and tidbits of information, but sadly never came to much of an agreement - but looking at them together seems to draw the loose threads together, and possibly comes to something resembling an official answer.
So, I thought it would be useful to compile everything in one spot and seek the wisdom of the forums, as well as perhaps give future players like myself a one-stop thread for all their alchemical weapons needs.
Actions & Alchemy
The first and most contentious rules question I found surrounding alchemical splash weapons was with their interaction with Quick Draw. Most of the contention is due to the clause that states
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
So, are alchemical splash weapons (such as Alchemist's Fire) weapons or are they alchemical items?
I'll start by stating that there's absolutely no clear answer that I've found. My opinion is that they're weapons first, and would qualify for Quick Draw, and that the alchemical items clause refers to alchemical remedies and alchemical tools, which function more similarly to potions and wands (the other items excluded from Quick Draw.) But I think that either interpretation can be successfully argued, and I think either conclusion could be correct.
But following are some reasons why I think that they should qualify:
Non-Alchemical Splash Weapons
There aren't very many of them out there, but non-alchemical splash weapons would certainly be able to be drawn with Quick Draw. Holy Water is the most obvious, but Stingchuck is another; this could support an argument that alchemical splash weapons are splash weapons first, and alchemical items second.
(As a fair point, some could argue that Holy Water is actually an alchemical item, due to its inclusion on the list of Alchemical Weapons in Ultimate Equipment, despite not being created through alchemy. Stingchuck stands, though.)
Regardless, resorting to "realistic" reasons as arguments for rules interpretations is general pretty poor form; but there is something to be said for being able to draw a 9 lb skull-full-of-bugs splash weapon with Quick Draw as argument for being able to draw an Alchemist's Fire with Quick Draw.
Drawing a Weapon, Retrieving a Stored Item, and Preparing to Throw a Splash Weapon
This is another contentious bit of rules - unfortunately, the Core Rulebook lists under the Full-Round Action table, the action "Prepare to throw splash weapon."
Fortunately, this rule was actually addressed and clarified to state that it only applies to splash weapons that are not already-prepared, though it does also specify that this action is separate from the action needed to throw it.
Retrieve a Stored Object states that:
Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.
This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapons states:
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. (Emphasis mine)
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Alchemical Splash Weapons are clearly weapon-like objects, and easy reach can be established with items such as the Bandolier, so at the very least, they qualify for the draw while moving clause. (Bandoliers are otherwise completely useless, as they offer no benefit compared to just having the item in another container - but they are cool. As a note, this does not offer any further insight into the Quick Draw debate above, as it also references wands, which are also clearly disallowed by Quick Draw.)
The difference between the draw a weapon action versus retrieve a stored item action is whether or not the action provokes an attack of opportunity - drawing a weapon does not, retrieving an item does.
But, hey, at least you can draw your alchemist's fire and/or wand without provoking and/or while moving, so that's useful no matter what.
Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon
Alchemical Weapon (Su)
At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.
The big rules contention that comes up with regards to the Alchemical Weapon Grenadier feature is whether or not you need to have the alchemical liquid or powder in-hand or if the action listed covers the entire process.
Sadly, I couldn't find an official answer on this. Like the Quick Draw question, above, there's plenty of justification for either interpretation. Certainly the fact that it calls out the action required would seem to cover the entire process of retrieving & applying the alchemical substance, like the actions required for the alchemist's bombs or extracts, but it unfortunately does not specifically state that.
There's also contention surrounding whether or not this effect would allow you to apply your Int mod to damage, per the alchemist's Throw Anything class feature. To me, it seems clear that you would as long as the alchemical substance infused would normally get that benefit due to the statement that "the alchemical item takes full effect" - a splash weapon does not actually have to splash in order to be considered a splash weapon, and one of the effects of it being a splash weapon is that you apply your Int mod to damage. It is important to note that this damage is considered "bonus dice of damage", so it is considered to be part of the same source as the weapon or ammunition it was applied to - this could be important for determining its effectiveness with regards to damage reduction, energy resistance, and/or hardness, unlike...
Explosive Missile (Discovery)
As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate.
This can be a lot of fun to couple with the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon, above. Important to note, however, is that this is a separate source of damage, since it states that it "deals damage normally...as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb." This could be beneficial or detrimental, as it allows the target to potentially apply energy resistance/damage reduction/hardness twice (though on the flip side, could allow you to take advantage of an energy vulnerability twice.)
This, thankfully, is not a contentious understanding, though depending on how the grenadier's ability is interpreted above, may limit one's ability to combine these two effects. At worst, at 6th level you can draw your alchemical substance as a move action, apply it as a swift, and infuse, load, and fire it with a bomb strapped to it as a standard.
Other Related Rules & Useful Stuff
Understanding how these rules relate to one another and the actions required to perform them is vital to playing a mad bomber successfully, and at the moment, it's going to require a conversation with your DM to figure out how your abilities are going to work.
Some other useful rules to brush up on:
Throw Splash Weapon refers to the rules for Ranged Attacks; these are basic and good to know.
Conductive weapon property. This can be a good replacement for Explosive Missile, above, since you only use your bomb uses if you hit, or you can stack them for one enormous explosive shot that's going to drain you of resources (but it'd be an amazing display!)
Special Ammunition is extremely helpful when coupled with your grenadier's alchemical weapon ability, and/or if you choose to take the explosive missile discovery or experiment with a conductive ranged weapon. In particular, Tangleshot Arrows or Dye Arrows allow you to retain your attack against touch AC, but at the cost of regular weapon damage (which could be significant.)
Where Things Get Weird
Launching Crossbow and Crossbow Mastery
For those that rule against alchemical splash weapons being able to be drawn with Quick Draw, or that the action specified in the grenadier's alchemical weapon feature is not the action required to draw & apply the alchemical substance, this interaction is clear, and seems to spit in the eye of such rulings (though it in no way invalidates them.)
I think that's everything. I hope that this is helpful, and I'd welcome feedback or to know if I missed or forgot anything. I'd love to know what people's rulings are based on all the above-presented information. I probably didn't make it a secret what my interpretations are, but I definitely understand the other way the rules can be interpreted.
Thanks for reading!
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Your post is rather verbose, which is probably why nobody's touched it for the last 2 days. The attention span of forum readers is not renowned, but I'll see if I can get things started for you:
Alchemical items cannot be drawn as a free action using Quick Draw.
Alchemical splash weapons, despite being treated as "weapons" for purposes of determining attack bonuses and penalties, are still "alchemical items", and as such would fall under the restrictions listed within the feat's text.
Does a Grenadier need to have the alchemical liquid or powder in-hand?
Most likely, yes. To use an item, it must typically be in hand, and the Grenadier ability does not clearly remove this requirement.
Does Crossbow Mastery allow loading of your Launching Crossbow as a free action?
It's been my belief that it does. My Bolt Ace keeps a bandolier of splash weapons readily available for just this purpose. But I do not believe that the specific exception granted by Crossbow Mastery should establish a general rule otherwise. It's a feat investment, with a narrow application, and should only modify the normal rules for its own purpose.
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OK, so I have a multi-class alchemist monstrosity and the launching crossbow interests me but I need to know how the rules work before I commit to it. I will post my intended combination and please let me know where I have erred and how. If you can back up you response with rules quotes or FAQ clarification would be great.
Nefreet, thanks for contributing above but unless you site some rules reason I have to dismiss the answer as someones opinions. This is for PFS otherwise it would just be handled by a chat with the GM.
+1 Conductive Launching crossbow with combined Alchemist Fire/Acid flask imbued with a 2d6 bomb and swift action activation of Kirin Strike. Intelligence modifier is +9. Concentrated splash feat used and targeted bomb admixture.
Is the damage
(Alchemist fire (1d6+9(Int)) + Acid Flask (1d6+9(Int))+ Point Blank Shot (1) + Kirin Strike (18(Int*2)))* 150% for Concentrated splash + Bomb damage (2d6+18(targeted bomb admixture))
What else could it be? What types are the damage? IE how much fire, how much acid.
Actions & Alchemy
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.So, are alchemical splash weapons (such as Alchemist's Fire) weapons or are they alchemical items?
By the time Quick Draw was published, "Alchemical Item" was completely undefined. Still is, AFAICT. And reading it in context, it seems clear that the intent was for only non-weapons to be excluded. However, if you get into the design history of flask rogues, it becomes very clear that nerfing flask rogues was the intent, not an accident.
In other words: You can't Quick Draw flasks, and that's intentional.
We completely agree that flasks in easy reach, such as in a bandolier, can be drawn with a "draw a weapon" action.
Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon: I've had the go-around a few times with other posters, and I completely agree that it adds f.ex. 1d6+Int acid damage as a separate effect on an attack.
It's a (Su) ability, and like Extracts, the listed action is the entire action requirement, no more and no less. There is dev commentary to that effect too.
Launching Crossbow: It's a projectile weapon, with a specified loading time. If you get that loading time down to a free action, then it's a free action. The time to load a projectile weapon includes the time to retrieve the ammo. This shouldn't be controversial; it's a non-action to draw an arrow to fire it, but a draw-a-weapon action to draw an arrow to stab with it as an improvised weapon.
Note that Int-to-damage applies, because that ability is in no way contingent on throwing. The grenadier ability can be used, but not the Explosive Missile discovery.
+1 Conductive Launching crossbow with combined Alchemist Fire/Acid flask imbued with a 2d6 bomb and swift action activation of Kirin Strike. Intelligence modifier is +9. Concentrated splash feat used and targeted bomb admixture.
Is the damage
(Alchemist fire (1d6+9(Int)) + Acid Flask (1d6+9(Int))+ Point Blank Shot (1) + Kirin Strike (18(Int*2)))* 150% for Concentrated splash + Bomb damage (2d6+18(targeted bomb admixture))What else could it be? What types are the damage? IE how much fire, how much acid.
Assuming an Alechemist Fire loaded in the crossbow, using Alchemical Weapon to add the effect of an acid flask:
(1d6+18+1(pbs) fire damage)*1.5 (concentrated splash) + 1d6+9 acid + whatever the bomb damage (including Int bonus)
Point Blank shot applies to an attack, not for rider effects.
Ki-rin strike is an untyped Int bonus to damage, and therefore doesn't stack with Int to damage; adding it to the fire damage is most efficient, because of Concentrated Splash.
The acid flask imbued by the Grenadier ability does not splash, and does not benefit from Concentrated Splash.
Int is added multiple times, because multiple damage rolls are made. Conversely, resistances applies against each effect separately.
Launching Crossbow can't be used with Explosive Missile.
Hybridization Funnel has dev commentary that the second component doesn't add int to damage.
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Hybridization Funnel has dev commentary that the second component doesn't add int to damage.
Ahhh does it, i had not seen that. Any chance you can point me in that direction? Well that is one question answered as that is where the acid flask in the equation came from, sorry i should have said that.
So does that make it (1d6+18+1(pbs) fire damage) * 1.5 (concentrated splash) + (1d6+9 acid) * 1.5 (concentrated splash) + bomb?
Hybridization Funnel has dev commentary that the second component doesn't add int to damage.Ahhh does it, i had not seen that. Any chance you can point me in that direction? Well that is one question answered as that is where the acid flask in the equation came from, sorry i should have said that.
So does that make it (1d6+18+1(pbs) fire damage) * 1.5 (concentrated splash) + (1d6+9 acid) * 1.5 (concentrated splash) + bomb?
Neither have I, as it turns out. Stupid scumbag brain memory...
Alchemical items cannot be drawn as a free action using Quick Draw.
Alchemical splash weapons, despite being treated as "weapons" for purposes of determining attack bonuses and penalties, are still "alchemical items", and as such would fall under the restrictions listed within the feat's text.
There are ways around this.
Rogue [Underground Chemist]:
Chemical Weapons (Ex): At 2nd level, an underground chemist is able to retrieve an alchemical item as if drawing a weapon. She adds her Intelligence modifier to damage dealt with splash weapons, including any splash damage. She adds 1/2 her level to Craft (alchemy) checks. This ability replaces evasion.
Slipslinger Style line also allows free action reload of alchemical splash weapons as sling ammo, dealing sling damage and alchemical splash weapons damage.
Then the Conductive is being used for the bomb damage right?
then. admixture won't work with it.
Condcutive gives the outcome of the SU ability. it is not the ability techicnally. It changes from the "bomb" SU alchemist ability to simply "weapon specical ability *insert bomb damage w/ int *"
What makes you think that discoveries than can be applied to the bombs ability before a bomb is thrown can't be applied before it's channeled through a weapon? I don't see it.