Another rogue question

[Wise Old Man]

I'm famous for these simple questions, however, believe me when I say that there has been much thought and discussion on this with a few people:

What's better for sneak attack, Feinting feats or Tripping feats?

[Chess Pwn]

How do tripping feats help sneak attacks?

[Corvino]

Feinting is more consistent as you can buff your Bluff to unholy levels, while Tripping does badly against high CMD foes.

If you're asking about Rogues (and you seem to be) then while feat intensive either Improved Two-Weapon Feint (or Moonlight Stalker feint) is more consistent in providing sneak attack bonuses than the Trip line of feats. But I'm not 100% convinced that building down either line is entirely worthwhile given that Pathfinder Unchained is so close.

Edit - Chess Pwn is right. Prone does not deny you Dex to AC. Thus no sneak attacks.

[KestrelZ]

This is just my opinion -

Tripping feats are more useful in my experience.

The feinting feat does not improve your chances of feinting, only allows you to use feinting as a move action rather than a standard action. The problem with feinting is that only the person that succeeds at feinting can gain the reward of the attempt - no one else can gain the benefit of your feint. Feinting also improves your chance to hit on the next attack and then it is done.

Tripping a foe will allow your allies to benefit from the action. The benefits may not be large, yet it can be devastating when used against a lone BBG that is surrounded by your party. A tripped opponent is at a melee disadvantage until that opponent spends a move action to stand again. Against reach weapons wielded by allies, this can be a recipe for defeating the tripped being.

Feint and trip both have a umber of opponents that are somewhat immune to the tactics. Beings that fly or have no legs are immune to trip. Beings that have no dex bonus to AC could care less about losing their non-existent bonus. So the types of immune opponents are a wash.

The question seems more for any 3/4 BAB non-monk characters than just for Rogue (it can be applied to Bards, Summoners, Clerics, etc. with equal opportunity).

[andreww]

Tripping doesn't enable sneak attack and feinting is generally difficult to do and therefore terrible so the answer is neither. Also tripping as a tactic falls off rapidly from the mid levels as more flying creatures which are outright immune and large monsters turn up. Rogues also struggle to trip well unless they invest heavily given their three quarters BaB.

[Chess Pwn]

For trying to pull off sneak attacks I recommend to go feinting, since it help give them the condition allowing you to get your damage to them. If your party wants there's actually really good feats for feinting in the Teamwork section that can really make it worthwhile.

If you're just curious about which will help you hit them when they already qualify for sneak attacks, then I'm not sure.

[Corvino]

Interesting Aside - how about a rogue with a 3 level Hunter dip? Hunter tactics (grant all teamwork feats to your companion) + Pack Flanking (if you and AC both threaten it's flanking regardless positioning) is close to always-on flanking for sneak attacks.

[Mudfoot]

Get someone else to trip while you feint, if you must. You probably don't have the CMB for it.

Tripping does not in itself allow sneak attacks, but once the opponent is prone he's very easy to flank.

[Bob Bob Bob]

You know, with the Melee Toolbox trip may be a viable option. They added a bunch of shield boss items, one of which does this:

Hooked Boss wrote:

The struts on this reinforcing boss bear large, sturdy hooks, which can be used to snag an opponent’s clothing or armor, causing it to stumble. You can attempt trip combat maneuver checks with this shield. If the combat maneuver check is successful, the opponent does not fall prone, but is considered flat-footed until the beginning of its next turn.

So a shield bash Sap Master could very easily guarantee they could get a flat-footed opponent.

[andreww]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

You know, with the Melee Toolbox trip may be a viable option. They added a bunch of shield boss items, one of which does this:

Hooked Boss wrote:

The struts on this reinforcing boss bear large, sturdy hooks, which can be used to snag an opponent’s clothing or armor, causing it to stumble. You can attempt trip combat maneuver checks with this shield. If the combat maneuver check is successful, the opponent does not fall prone, but is considered flat-footed until the beginning of its next turn.

So a shield bash Sap Master could very easily guarantee they could get a flat-footed opponent.

Isn't this something the seven branched sword already does and I dont see a lot of Rogues trying to make them work. It also doesnt solve the rogues issues with actually being successful at manouvers.

[Wise Old Man]

Here's how I had it written down so far, I already had feint implemented in there:

Human
Fighter: Martial Master
1. Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Finesse
2. Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Improved Feint
4. Combat Expertise
5. Surprise Follow-Through
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

Ninja: Scout
1. Improved Two-Weapon Feint
2. Combat Trick: Great Cleave
3. Improved Surprised Follow-Through
4. Rogue Talent: Offensive Defensive
5. Improved Critical
6. Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick
7. Critical Focus
8. Ninja Trick: Pressure Points
9. Bleeding Critical
10. Master Trick: Crippling Strike

Fighter: Martial Master
7. Extra Trick: Assassinate
8. Cleaving Finish
9. Improved Cleaving Finish
10. Toughness

At level 9, I'd be able to Surprise Follow-Through sneak attack all within reach after each successful hit. I could also concentrate on one target with Improved Two-Weapon Feint and dish out those sneak attacks. Everything else is just to complement the build after ninth level. I don't have a lot of CMB, because my strength is low. I tried to focus on a high Dex build, with my Int and Cha following up. I was trying to figure out how to get more ways to deal sneak attack damage while also disabling targets effectively.

[Charon's Little Helper]

If you want to feint as a ninja without limiting your attacks - I'd suggest the Moonlight Stalker feats. When you have concealment (such as from invis) you can feint as a swift action. (plus the extra +2 attack/damage when concealed is nice)

At high levels - once creatures start having true seeing etc - you can pick up a ring of blinking.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So the Hooked Boss has some advantages over the seven-branched sword. The sword is exotic, two-handed, slashing, and has unclear wording on how it works (what's the remainder of the round?). The boss can be attached to a martial weapon (light and heavy shield) which is bludgeoning (so works with Sap Master) and can be dual-wielded (with no penalties with Shield Master). It's... less of an opportunity cost for an arguably better style (Sap Master is quite powerful when it works).

Now, you're absolutely right, pure rogue probably would have trouble maintaining efficiency with it. Since their build dips 6 levels of fighter first, they can probably pull off the trips effectively enough to make the boss worth it (since they don't need to drop any feats into becoming proficient with it). They could even do six levels of slayer or ranger and pick up shield master for free from combat style feats (depending on why they picked fighter).

[Wise Old Man]

The Moonlight Stalker Feint requires me to have darkvision or low-light vision racial trait, which is non-human, and that is impossible unfortunately.

Flanking is no problem, I already got that covered.

@andreww
Hmm. If tripping doesn't deny dex, and feinting is also no good, then what would you suggest?

Feinting, pinning, invisibility, scout's charge/skirmisher, surprise follow-through are the only decent paths I've seen yet. Pinning requires a lot of feat tax. I can't find any other options...Any more dips I could get into?

[andreww]

Wise Old Man wrote:

Hmm. If tripping doesn't deny dex, and feinting is also no good, then what would you suggest?

If you want to generate it yourself then something like the scout archetype or enough acrobatics to make sure you can reliably get into flank and enough defences to survive once you are there. That's a pretty tall order.

Other options include UMD for greater invisibility scrolls but those are expensive and it doesn't last very long. Having an arcane party member cast it on you can work but frankly they are better off using their action for something else. The easiest way is probably ninja archer from1 10th level onwards with swift action greater invisibility but anything that can see invis will leave you very underwhelming as will any encounter with elementals, oozes or incorporeals.

[Wise Old Man]

Gotcha, so the Invisible Blade trick is always a sure go when it comes to sneak attacks, I'll just constantly be able to sneak attack unless monsters are immune to precision damage. Right?

[andreww]

If it is greater invisibility and they cannot see you and they are vulnerable to sneak attack damage. Normal invisibility will drop the moment you make your first attack, you will get sneak attack on the first roll then you lose the qualifying condition and any other attacks are not sneak attacks unless they qualify in some other way such as flanking.

[Wise Old Man]

Right, I see what's happening. That's amazing. I knew it that you could get sneak attacks with Invisibility Blade, but the rules kind of confused me on it because I thought you could only sneak attack while invisible only once. But now that that's cleared up, I can add Invisible Blade back into the build. :)

[Imbicatus]

Why Fighter/ninja when you can just be a stygian slayer for the same effect with better SA damage at the end?

[rainzax]

Blood of Dragons trait

[Wise Old Man]

@Imbicatus
Because I get feats from fighter and martial flexibility, and ninja gets me some useful tricks and that scout archetype too. All pretty useful if you ask me.

@rainzax
Oh wow, you answered my prayers. Thank you!

[Dema_89]

As alredy being said, trip doesn't provide a condition to sneak attack, but you can combine it with a feint build, to get Sneak AOO.

Human Swashbuckler/Scout Rogue, FCB Extra Rogue Talent (starting at 4th level):

Feats

1: Improved Initative
1 Bonus: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Feint
5: Improved Trip
7: Combat Reflexes
9: Greater Trip
11: ?

Talents:

2: Finesse Rogue
4: Weapon Training - Rapier
6: Combat Trick - Surprise Maneuver
8: Combat Trick - Greater Feint
10: Opportunist
10 Bonus: Crippling Strike
12: ?

At 9th level you can Feint/flank an opponent and gain the benefits of Surprise Maneuver to Trip him (also ignoring the Dex Bonus to CMD if you feint). Thanks to Greater Feint all your AOO caused by the tripped enemy ignore the Dex Bonus to AC resulting in Sneak Attack.

Not an optimized build but i think it could be fun.

CMB (Trip) Bonus at lvl 9:

Bab: +6
Dex: +5
Trip Feats: +2 (improved) +2 (greater)
Weapon Ench: +2
Surprise Maneuver: +5
Tot: +22 (+24 if you flank)

Average CMD by this level is around 32, let's say 30 without Dex Bonus, resulting in an average 60% chance of success.