Grappling with reach as an AOO with grab special ability


Rules Questions


Imagine an encounter where a barbarian is running at a Faceless Stalker (reach 10') who has the grab special attack. Once he gets into range he is going to eat an AOO from the Faceless Stalker.

The Faceless Stalker slams the barbarian successfully on the AOO and then as a free action makes the grab CM attack and grapples him.

If that is correct so far, what happens to the Barbarian? Does he still get to make his attack (even if he can use a 2 handed sword)? If so do the grapple penalties apply?

And would this all play out the same way if the barbarian was charging and the Faceless Stalker had readied the his attack without the AOO? Or even used it as an AOO and a readied action?

Thanks for any help on this.

Faceless Stalker

Melee mwk longsword +8 (1d8+4/19–20), slam +2 (1d6+2 plus grab)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

By the rules free actions can not be taken when it is not your turn unless it is called out as an exception so no on the AoO, even though many GM's might allow it.

For a readied action it you would get to use grab, and the barbarian can not attack with that two-handed weapon.

If the barbarian was using a move action and not charging he might be able use another weapon depending on how the readied action was worded.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
wraithstrike wrote:
By the rules free actions can not be taken when it is not your turn unless it is called out as an exception so no on the AoO, even though many GM's might allow it.
While that may be true currently, this faq indicates grab is supposed to be a listed exception. And will be erratad in the future.
Quote:
While you can’t take most free actions off your turn, Grab, Trip, Pull, Push, and Rock Catching’s free actions can all be used off-turn. This will be reflected in future errata.


Rikkan wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
By the rules free actions can not be taken when it is not your turn unless it is called out as an exception so no on the AoO, even though many GM's might allow it.
While that may be true currently, this faq indicates grab is supposed to be a listed exception. And will be erratad in the future.
Quote:
While you can’t take most free actions off your turn, Grab, Trip, Pull, Push, and Rock Catching’s free actions can all be used off-turn. This will be reflected in future errata.

Dang it. I even remember reading and bookmarking that FAQ. Thanks for reminding me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So we know you can use grab, but what's the consensus on what happens to the barbarian? He gets grappled, and can finish his charge with the grappled condition applied as long as he can make the attack without using two hands? If he is using a great sword or two-handed weapon his charge is ruined?


If the attack he is making requires two-hands to make, he does not get the attack. If it doesn't, I would say that he does (though the rules do not clearly define what happens in this case).


First, when a grapple is successful, the grappled target is moved to be adjacent to the grappler. So the barbarian won't "finish his charge" because the faceless stalker will finish it for him by dragging him to an adjacent square.

Once the AoO or readied action is finished, the barbarian can use whatever actions he has left, including maybe making a standard attack with a one-handed weapon if he has one in hand or has Quick Draw. If all he has in hand is a 2H weapon and his move action is already finished (he was moving), he may not be able to draw and attack without Quick Draw.

And if he was charging (not simply moving), he's already used his Full-Round action so he's probably done for this turn.


Why would he be done? He could quickdraw and finish the charge attack with a 1-handed weapon.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
_Ozy_ wrote:
Why would he be done? He could quickdraw and finish the charge attack with a 1-handed weapon.

I suppose that may be grounds for debate.

For his charge, he must travel in a straight line to the nearest square where he can attack his target. Before he finished that, he got grabbed and dragged to that square anyway*. But now that he's at that square, his charge is done, it's time to make his attack. IF he is holding a 1H weapon or IF he has Quick Draw, he might be able to make one attack.

The way I look at it is that his charge was interrupted. For example, if he had been tripped at 10', his charge is definitely interrupted. Being grappled at 10' is pretty much the same problem; he's no longer moving under his own accord; he's being grabbed and dragged the last few feet. That's not charging; it's being dragged. So his charge ended 10' away from the grappler and there is no way to "finish the charge" after being grabbed, grappled, and dragged. Since charging uses a full-round action, he doesn't have a standard action to attack after he gets dragged closer, so he's pretty much done.

*if he got dragged to some other square, I'm pretty sure his charge is done (he didn't get to his intended square and he's grappled so he cannot move there now).


'Interrupted' by readied actions or AoOs does not mean your actions are 'stopped'. In fact, RAW says that the actions can continue normally after the interruption if possible. As long as he moved 10' or more in a straight line and ended up adjacent to the opponent, the charge requirements have been met and he can attack. Since free actions are allowed during actions, he can quick draw before his attack.

People seem to think that actions must be 'pre-planned' by the PC. Sure, the player describes what the PC is going to do beforehand, but that does not 'lock' the character into an unalterable course of action. If I say I'm moving forward 50', and then a wall pops up at 30', I don't lose the rest of my move. I can turn to finish my move, or even start to climb.

Similarly, if I declare a charge action, once I start the charge I can still decide to add free actions and chose to attack with another weapon if the situation changes during the action, as long as the requirements for charging have been met.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Why would he be done? He could quickdraw and finish the charge attack with a 1-handed weapon.

That is a (slightly) more complicated scenario, that was not part of the original question. Understand the base (general) rules first, then we can come back and talk about layered rules and how specific rules kick in and alter the base scenario.


Charging was part of the original question, and the answer to the base scenario was already given. The barbarian is grappled and can't attack with a 2-h sword. Is there any remaining question on that point?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A charge is a full-round action. Once you've begun charging, you've expended your move and standard actions.

There may be a little room for arguing that his charge wasn't interrupted if he happens to get pulled to the same square he was originally charging to, but I'm going to agree with many others here and say that his charge is interrupted. He did not complete his charge; something else moved him the last amount. Note that one of the requirements is to charge to the nearest square... if you don't meet this requirement, no successful charge.

Assuming he was indeed interrupted, the barbarian can no longer make an attack. His move and standard actions have already been expended.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You cannot complete the charge if your movement is hindered. Since your movement is hindered when you gain the grappled condition, you cannot charge while grappled. It does not matter if you "made it" to the square that you planned to attack from if you are now grappled.

The same would be said if you were bull rushed into an adjacent square, whether it be the original planned square or a different one (say it was the result of a readied action).

You are clearly not charging if you are grappled.


Byakko wrote:

A charge is a full-round action. Once you've begun charging, you've expended your move and standard actions.

There may be a little room for arguing that his charge wasn't interrupted if he happens to get pulled to the same square he was originally charging to, but I'm going to agree with many others here and say that his charge is interrupted. He did not complete his charge; something else moved him the last amount. Note that one of the requirements is to charge to the nearest square... if you don't meet this requirement, no successful charge.

Assuming he was indeed interrupted, the barbarian can no longer make an attack. His move and standard actions have already been expended.

Can you please link to the relevant RAW regarding the 'expenditure' of actions? AFAIK, actions are not expended until they actually are used.

I have not expended an attack until I make an attack roll.

Actions that have been interrupted may have been 'started', but they have not been 'expended'.

Why do people think that PCs are 'programmed' with a set of actions that can't be modified once you press 'GO' on their turn?


Bull rush is actually an interesting question, but let's consider something different, but similar:

Mr. Gish charge his foe.
As he nears, he sees another enemy which he'll wind up moving past, provoking an AoO.
With a bit of quick thinking, Mr. Gish uses a quickened Dimension Door to teleport a couple squares directly forward.
Can he now continue his charge to the original target square?

Silver Crusade

Dimension Door forbids any actions after casting. The only way around this is the Dimensional Agility feat. Assuming this gish has Dimensional Agility, and didn't leave the charge lane, I'd say the charge was not interrupted. Others may disagree.

Dimension Door wrote:
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.


Magda Luckbender wrote:

Dimension Door forbids any actions after casting. The only way around this is the Dimensional Agility feat. Assuming this gish has Dimensional Agility, and didn't leave the charge lane, I'd say the charge was not interrupted. Others may disagree.

Dimension Door wrote:
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.

I was kind of discounting the "no more actions" part of DDoor.

However, that does raise another interesting question:
You've already begun charging, so after a quickened Dimension Door, are you really spending any more actions?


Using a different mode of movement is not anywhere near the same thing as being moved or grappled by someone else.

With Magda's qualifiers, I would also allow Dimension Door to work.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Can you please link to the relevant RAW regarding the 'expenditure' of actions? AFAIK, actions are not expended until they actually are used.

The PRD says:

PRD, Combat, Charge wrote:
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.

And this:

PRD, Combat, Charge wrote:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement

(emphasis mine)

If you're charging and you're still 10' away from your enemy (let's assume you are medium without reach), and something stops your movement, can you finish your charge/attack?

If you get paralyzed?
If you get petrified?
If you get Held (magically with Hold Person)?
If you get tripped?

No. No attack for you. Right? We all agree on that? Your movement in the above cases is definitely "hindered" so you cannot charge anymore. And since the attack is "part of your action", you won't get that attack now, either.

What if you get entangled in a web that causes you to gain the Grappled condition? Movement is hindered, charge is over, and no attack for you, right?

Now, if a second enemy, not the one you are charging, were to grapple you and stop your movement, could you attack your original target? Of course not. Your movement became "hindered" so charge ended in that square, 10' away from your target. The one attack you getduring the charge is negated because your charge is finished, too.

Now, if your target grapples you (still at 10' because he has enough reach on his grapple), he still ends your charge. Why? Because you have the Grappled condition and you cannot move while grappled. Your movement is "hindered" by not being able to move. Charge is finished. The one attack you getduring the charge is negated because your charge is finished, too. Now it drags you the rest of the way but your full-round Charge action is already finished so you won't be attacking it this round.

That seems pretty clear.

_Ozy_ wrote:
Why do people think that PCs are 'programmed' with a set of actions that can't be modified once you press 'GO' on their turn?

It's not about that.

The charging PC declared his action and actually DID his action. Well, most of it. But then it got interrupted with a specific interruption that prevents him from finishing it. The action is finished. The PC doesn't get any "Do-Over" button he can press on his turn, either.

I suppose if the interruption happened within the first 30' of the charge, a lenient GM might house rule to allow the charger to turn his charge into a mere move action and then take a standard action as he sees fit. But that's not RAW, and this is the Rules Questions forum.


It says you can't take any other action. It does not say you can't "spend" more actions. That would include not being able to take ANY actions, including: free actions, swift actions, or actions you already started.

But this wasn't about Dimension Door.


You're right about the hindered movement. I think that would qualify as preventing the charge. I had forgotten that part of the requirements. That would certainly invalidate the charge from most of the interruptions you listed. I'm not sure if being grappled by the target is one of them.

Why? Because his movement isn't actually being hindered in that he's not trying to move while being hindered. He's already reached his target.

If the target is in difficult terrain, but the square I'm moving to is not, I can still charge because my movement will be completed before it becomes hindered.

Likewise, if I charge unhindered and get grappled 10' away, that grapple is entirely resolved before my turn continues. The grapple brings me to the target square, and I no longer have to move to continue the charge, therefore none of my movement was hindered during the charge. The fact that any subsequent movement is hindered would seem to be irrelevant, much as if someone cast web after I already reached the attack square.

Actually, that's a good question for you. Let's say you charge someone, and a readied web spell goes off right as you reach the attack square. You're no longer moving, but your movement is now hindered. Can you complete the charge since your movement up to that square was unhindered?


DM_Blake, I agree with most of that, but I feel there's a slight caveat.

I believe charging's requirement that your movement is unhindered only pertains while you're actively moving.

For example:
If a Slayer uses Slowing Strike to reduce a creature's flying speed, it could still charge with an unhindered land speed.
or
If a mounted character becomes entangled but not the mount, they can still charge. (there's another thread about this)

--------

Thus, if the target of your charge readies to grapple you (without any special reach) and succeeds, it doesn't stop your charge despite causing you to become grappled before you make your attack.

However, if you're wielding a 2-handed weapon, being grappled will still prevent the attack as you can't attack with it in a grapple... but if you were wielding a dagger with the charge, you can complete the charge attack. Finally, you could drop the 2H sword and quick draw the dagger and complete the charge, in this situation, imho.

--------

I maintain my stance that for the original question the charge IS interrupted, as the last 5' of movement was not "charged" over, but covered by the target's pull.

Silver Crusade

If the charging Barbarian had a reach weapon it would be a moot point, as the foe would not get an AoO and the charge attack would go off from 10'. Just saying :-)


^^ holy crap, we agreed on something :P (Byakko)

hmm, except for the reach grab, I don't think that invalidates the charge because there's nothing in the charge rules that say you must use your own movement to cover all the squares to the opponent.

Consider it sort of a mounted charge, except the enemy gives you that final 5' boost.


Ozy and I agreeing about ready/movement related issues? (well, almost)

Mnn, rest of you guys better back off or something. It's pretty much case closed at this point. Or the end of the world. ;)


Rikkan wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
By the rules free actions can not be taken when it is not your turn unless it is called out as an exception so no on the AoO, even though many GM's might allow it.
While that may be true currently, this faq indicates grab is supposed to be a listed exception. And will be erratad in the future.
Quote:
While you can’t take most free actions off your turn, Grab, Trip, Pull, Push, and Rock Catching’s free actions can all be used off-turn. This will be reflected in future errata.

Thanks. I missed that FAQ.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't know how are envisioning a charge, but if someone else picks your butt up and controls your movement to any adjacent square that they want, your movement is absolutely hindered. You are stuck. You are no longer charging.

If your movement is hindered, you are uh, hindered. If you are hindered, you cannot complete the charge. If you are grappled, you cannot move. If you cannot move, you are hindered. If you are grappled, you cannot complete the charge.

If you were tripped in that final square, you are prone. If you are prone, your movement is hindered. If your movement is hindered, you cannot complete the charge. If the target tripped you in that adjacent square as part of a readied action in the middle of your charge, you could not finish the charge as your movement is hindered.

If you are unhorsed in that final square, your charge was ended and you could not complete the charge.

A charge is not completed when you enter the adjacent square by any means imaginable. A charge is completed when you attack, movement uninhibited, after you reach the square under your own power (or direction in the case of mounted).

Your ally cannot "throw" you across a hole and call it a charge. You cannot slide across a grease spell and complete the charge afterwards.

When you are grappled, all of your momentum is lost. You are beat. You are grabbed. The power of your charge is defeated. You are detained by someone else. You do not get to complete your charge.


I believe that this just goes to show that the shortest distance between to points is NOT necessarily a straight line...

Movement during a charge:
Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

From a strict RAW perspective, The grapple stops the charge if
1) the grapple occurs before the charger has moved 10 feet
2) the grapple occurs after the charger has moved more than his speed and cannot draw a weapon as a free action
3) the grappler opts to move the charger to an adjacent square on the opposite side of the grappler, or otherwise places a creature, difficult terrain, etc. between the charger's starting square and his resulting location.

If none of these 3 conditions is met, the charger has still fulfilled all of the requirements for charging, and can thus attack.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You completely left out the part about hindered movement, you know, for strict RAW purposes and all.

"and nothing can hinder your movement"

You were "GRAPPLED" 10' away. You gained that condition at that time. You didn't wait until you got closer to gain the grapple condition. The instant the grab was successful, which was before you were adjacent, you were grappled.

When you were grappled 10' away, you were unable to move. When you were unable to move, your movement was hindered. And when that happens, your charge ends.

Then someone else moved you.

You cannot complete the charge while grappled.

Movement During A Grapple:
None.


Being repetitive doesn't strengthen your argument (although it certainly adds emphasis).

I believe charge's requirement that your movement be unhindered only applies while you're actually moving. Being able to move normally beyond your destination square is moot, as you're no longer moving.

If we go with your version, though, how would you handle a Slayer's selectively impairing Slowing Strike? Does having one form of movement impaired impact your ability to charge with other forms?

And how about this example:

A cat pounce-charges a target that has the ability to entangle anything that hits it. The cat's first claw hits. Can it now continue to attack with the rest of its full attack?


@ Komoda

Yeah, did you read the spoiler tag? You know, for literacy and all...

No one needs the snark.

So, riddle me this:
The grappler successfully grapples the charger. They move the charger to an appropriate adjacent square. Then lets go as a free action. Does the charger get to make the attack still?


I would say no.

One of the conditions of a successful charge is moving to the nearest square. If you're somehow repositioned to a square which isn't the nearest, your charge is not successful and you cannot attack.


I was trying to be repetitive in all kinds of different ways from all kinds of different angles. In quite a few cases on these forums if you don't do that, you will be doing it over 15 posts because the goal post will be moved again and again. Even with all of the angles I mentioned, there were more corner cases (addressed below) thrown at me/the community.

And I have been watching too much Scandal where every character repeats themselves like that.

Byakko,

You didn't move normally "TO GET TO" your destination square. If it was a creature with 20' reach and it picked you up and moved you 20' you could not finish your charge. That movement is not under your control. When you are moving under someone's control and not your own, you are no longer charging. In the OP case, the character was stopped (end of charge) and then moved. A grab is not a big hug with open arms that allows you to keep your movement and momentum going and follow through with the attack.

If your movement is stopped before you get to attack, your movement is stopped before you get to attack. That means your momentum, the +2 to hit, the double damage for some builds, and other bonuses would all be lost.

As to the slayer question, the charging character cannot use the movement form that is hindered. If that happens 10' away and the charger still needs to move 5' to be able to make the attack, then the charge was just lost. If the slayer slowed the charger's burrow speed but they were on top of the land, than that would have no affect on the charge as it was not being used during the charge.

As to the pounce question, I would adjudicate it the same way I adjudicate sneak attacks. Each attack matters. If the conditions that allow the charge have been lost between attacks, then the ability to charge, hence the extra attacks from pounce, would be lost. I see no reason why the pounce attacks would not suffer the same exact scrutiny as sneak attack. I always try to apply the logic evenly across the whole game, even if doesn't always work as the rules themselves switch as to how to adjudicate things.

galahad2112,

Your spoiler listed a bunch of the things that are required for a charge. It did not list them all. It also did not list the penalties for being grappled. It was a short, incomplete list. It is almost like saying, "to make an attack, Bill needs a weapon. Bill has a weapon in his hand so Bill can make an attack". But Bill is asleep. That part was left out.

Grapple tells you what you can do. It never states that you can charge while in a grapple. It states that you are "restrained". It clearly defines it as not able to move. Under Charge, the part you left out reads, "nothing can hinder your movement". But grapple reads, "grappled creatures cannot move..."

From a strict RAW perspective, you cherry picked (you may not have done this purposefully and I do not mean to imply that you did) the parts of charge that were completed by the OP but left out the parts that were not.

To your latest example, no. It does not matter that the charger is now next to his target and physically able (not counting action economy) to act. The charger got there after being stopped in his tracks, which would end the charge.

----

Lets say it was a readied action to grapple when the charger attacked with no reach involved. I still feel the charge would be lost. This is because it isn't just about charge. It is about how charge interacts with grapple. And once you have the grapple condition, you can't be charging.

I can understand not agreeing with this last part. But when reach is involved like in the OP, then the charger is clearly stopped 10' away and then moved.


Komoda is correct


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Komoda, have you confused my replies with Ozy's?

I have stated multiple times that if some external force moves you, you have not covered that section of ground via charging, and thus your charge is invalid.

The only point on where our opinions differ is that I do not believe having your movement hindered AFTER you have finished the movement portion of your charge has any effect on your charge's validity.

---------

Btw, our difference of opinion stems from different logical readings of "nothing can hinder your movement".

In my version, once you've reached the charge's destination square, there is no longer any movement to be considered for hindrance. Effectively, it's an empty set of movement, thus any check on properties of movement within the set will always come back empty. (I hope that makes sense)

In your version, it's checking for a status placed upon you and doesn't care if any actual movement is involved.

Both are valid logical ways to read that restriction. I believe my reading makes more sense, but accept that your reading is also possible.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Grappling with reach as an AOO with grab special ability All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.