Note: This is not for PFS.
So the question is simple, since the tumor familiar is literally a part of you and the RAW grants that part of you the ability to detach and attach, the animal's abilities, and level appropriate familiar abilities, why would it lose the racial abilities you have?
The problem with this is of course where do you draw the line? Would it include just bonuses to saves or skills, or would a static racial feat also transfer? What about racial stat modifiers? Etc...
That's kind of the arguments for and against I see. I am curious if people have anything to add to this?
d20PFSRD wrote: Tumor Familiar (Ex)
Benefit: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body, usually on his back or stomach. As a standard action, the alchemist can have the tumor detach itself from his body as a separate creature vaguely resembling a kind of animal suitable for a familiar (bat, cat, and so on) and move about as if it were an independent creature. The tumor can reattach itself to the alchemist as a standard action. The tumor has all the abilities of the animal it resembles (for example, a batlike tumor can fly) and familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level (though some familiar abilities may be useless to an alchemist). The tumor acts as the alchemist’s familiar whether attached or separated (providing a skill bonus, the Alertness feat, and so on). When attached to the alchemist, the tumor has fast healing 5. An alchemist’s extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells. If a tumor familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized procedure that costs 200 gp per alchemist level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
Mostly because while it's a part of you, it's not actually you. It's just a fancy familiar. It gets the abilities of a normal familiar, nothing more nothing less.
dragonhunterq wrote: Mostly because while it's a part of you, it's not actually you. It's just a fancy familiar. It gets the abilities of a normal familiar, nothing more nothing less. I understand the RAI view of things, but I think this is clearly not true. Normal familiars don't get fast healing 5 while attached to you...for that matter normal familiars don't get to attach and detach from their masters. That and you're kind of loosely saying well its "you" but its not "you you". Which I am not really sure has merit/meaning beyond just a feeling a particular person has as a gut reaction to the question.
Having said that I wasn't very clear with my original question. For clarity (too late to edit now) I am looking for rules references that say it does/doesn't work and or mechanical reasoning for why it would be problematic (above and beyond the typical mechanical shortcomings we see every session).
Apologies, for not being more clear in my question.
Also, something I was looking at after I posted this is the idea that in terms of mechanics the "animal"'s racial package just might supersede yours - I have just been unable to find a reference on that.
As far as I can tell RAI and RAW there is nothing about the ability that would give your tumor familiar your racial abilities. If the intent was that your tumor familiar gained your racial abilities it would be spelled out in the ability.
As is a tumor familiar has the ability to attach itself to it's master to gain fast healing 5, detach itself from it's master. It also possesses all the abilities of the animal it resembles, and has familiar abilities based on the alchemist's caster level. It can also share spells and deliver touch spells with the alchemist's mutagen and extracts. So what you end up with is a familiar that could be considered mechanically slightly better than a regular familiar.
Saperaud wrote: As far as I can tell RAI and RAW there is nothing about the ability that would give your tumor familiar your racial abilities. If the intent was that your tumor familiar gained your racial abilities it would be spelled out in the ability.
...
If the bolded part were true the concept of RAI versus RAW would not even be a thing. I do so wish it were true, but it is flatly not.
I am not disagreeing that it is against RAI, and in fact I personally believe it shouldn't be allowed to work this way. However, thinking it shouldn't and having a rule that says it shouldn't are different things. Furthermore, it is trivial to construct examples to show how a lack of explicit RAW can be used as a reason for something to work or for it not to work. Any inference based on the lack of explicit ruling is more likely to be indicative of the presenters particular view on the subject than anything else. But not for nothing, this is a game that people play and a sense of fair play is certainly important, so I do not entirely discount the fact that people have such a gut reaction to the question. It is just simply that I am, at this time in particular, looking for rules references that support or refute the interaction.
Is there a reason you need a RAW answer when RAI is fairly clear? Is a player asking or something? If so, I propose the severed arm test. If the racial trait applies to your arm when it's cut off, it wouldn't be unreasonable to apply it to the tumor familiar, GM willing. If you want RAW, then the racial traits are stated to be for that race. Your tumor familiar is not that race, subtype, or type. It is a magical beast.
I found something.
From the definition of bonuses:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Racial-Bonus
d20PFRD wrote:
Racial A racial bonus comes from the culture a particular creature was brought up in or because of innate characteristics of that type of creature. If a creature's race changes (for instance, if it dies and is reincarnated), it loses all racial bonuses it had in its previous form.
Initially I thought this ruled out the idea of racial bonuses applying nicely, but then I reread the Tumor Familiar ability...
d20PFSRD wrote:
Tumor Familiar (Ex)
Benefit: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body, usually on his back or stomach. As a standard action, the alchemist can have the tumor detach itself from his body as a separate creature vaguely resembling a kind of animal suitable for a familiar (bat, cat, and so on) and move about as if it were an independent creature. The tumor can reattach itself to the alchemist as a standard action. The tumor has all the abilities of the animal it resembles (for example, a batlike tumor can fly) and familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level (though some familiar abilities may be useless to an alchemist). The tumor acts as the alchemist’s familiar whether attached or separated (providing a skill bonus, the Alertness feat, and so on). When attached to the alchemist, the tumor has fast healing 5. An alchemist’s extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells. If a tumor familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized procedure that costs 200 gp per alchemist level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
This now adds to the ambiguity because we can say the tumor familiar doesn't modify the familiars race, but we can also say it doesn't grant racial bonuses.
But it has to have a race as this is important for many effects with specific targeting mechanisms (i.e. charm/hold person etc..).
The trouble is does the familiar retain your race because the Tumor familiar ability does not explicitly modify it.
Or does it gain the animal race because...actually I'll be honest I am now having a hard time seeing this argument, does someone else have a good case for why it would get the animal's race in spite of it numerous times avoiding saying that it is the animal?
It says things like "as if it were" and "has all the abilities of the animal it resembles". These strongly indicate to me that it is NOT that creature but you made to look like that creature.
Someone set me straight.
QuidEst wrote: Is there a reason you need a RAW answer when RAI is fairly clear? Is a player asking or something? If so, I propose the severed arm test. If the racial trait applies to your arm when it's cut off, it wouldn't be unreasonable to apply it to the tumor familiar, GM willing. If you want RAW, then the racial traits are stated to be for that race. Your tumor familiar is not that race, subtype, or type. It is a magical beast. A fair question and an approach I had considered but not formalized as you have.
Can you reference the magical beast piece? That would clear it up nicely.
QuidEst wrote: Is there a reason you need a RAW answer when RAI is fairly clear? Is a player asking or something? If so, I propose the severed arm test. If the racial trait applies to your arm when it's cut off, it wouldn't be unreasonable to apply it to the tumor familiar, GM willing. If you want RAW, then the racial traits are stated to be for that race. Your tumor familiar is not that race, subtype, or type. It is a magical beast. Apologies I neglected to answer your question.
I do not consider any one aspect of rules evaluation when deciding how something works in my games (e.g. RAI, RAW, is it fun?) I tend to look at them all and take them on balance for what I think is in the overall interest of the game as a whole. I was not concerned with RAI because I felt it was so clear that it was not of interest to pursue it further. Thus, I was trying to focus people onto the parts I was still unsettled on.
Sqrl wrote: QuidEst wrote: Is there a reason you need a RAW answer when RAI is fairly clear? Is a player asking or something? If so, I propose the severed arm test. If the racial trait applies to your arm when it's cut off, it wouldn't be unreasonable to apply it to the tumor familiar, GM willing. If you want RAW, then the racial traits are stated to be for that race. Your tumor familiar is not that race, subtype, or type. It is a magical beast. A fair question and an approach I had considered but not formalized as you have.
Can you reference the magical beast piece? That would clear it up nicely.
Nope, I'm on my phone. It's in the familiar section. But until you can prove that it's a Strix, your Strix Alchemist's tumor-turtle does not have a fly speed.
Thinking about it, presuming the familiar even started as the PC's race does changing its type (Humanoid in most cases) to magical beast actually alter its race?
QuidEst wrote: Sqrl wrote: QuidEst wrote: Is there a reason you need a RAW answer when RAI is fairly clear? Is a player asking or something? If so, I propose the severed arm test. If the racial trait applies to your arm when it's cut off, it wouldn't be unreasonable to apply it to the tumor familiar, GM willing. If you want RAW, then the racial traits are stated to be for that race. Your tumor familiar is not that race, subtype, or type. It is a magical beast. A fair question and an approach I had considered but not formalized as you have.
Can you reference the magical beast piece? That would clear it up nicely.
Nope, I'm on my phone. It's in the familiar section. But until you can prove that it's a Strix, your Strix Alchemist's tumor-turtle does not have a fly speed. I will check there then.
As for this argument, I am not sure I follow. The tumor familiar states it gains the abilities of the animal.
Sadly the magical beast thing doesn't seem to pan out =/
d20PFSRD wrote:
A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.
The thing with RAW is that you still haven't established where in the rules your familiar gains your racial abilities. The onus is on you to show where it states the familiar gains your racial abilities.
Or to put it another way - why would it gain your racial abilities?
Tumor Familiar wrote: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body I'm still not seeing the RAW that it's literally part of you, or that it gains your racial abilities.
dragonhunterq wrote: The thing with RAW is that you still haven't established where in the rules your familiar gains your racial abilities. The onus is on you to show where it states the familiar gains your racial abilities.
Or to put it another way - why would it gain your racial abilities?
Tumor Familiar wrote: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body I'm still not seeing the RAW that it's literally part of you, or that it gains your racial abilities.
OK, so the thing is I am not trying to win a debate so there is no onus at all. I am just looking for information and people can agree or disagree with any part or all of the conclusions we might draw.
On that point though, a few posts back I said this:
Sqrl wrote:
The trouble is does the familiar retain your race because the Tumor familiar ability does not explicitly modify it.
Or does it gain the animal race because...actually I'll be honest I am now having a hard time seeing this argument, does someone else have a good case for why it would get the animal's race in spite of it numerous times avoiding saying that it is the animal?
It says things like "as if it were" and "has all the abilities of the animal it resembles". These strongly indicate to me that it is NOT that creature but you made to look like that creature.
Someone set me straight.
My point is pretty simple, it neither says it is your race or the animal's race. But, as I noted in the last paragraph of the quote above, it does go out of its way to avoid saying the tumor familiar is actually that animal.
So just as a mental excercise let's suppose, for arguments sake, that it is definitely not the racial type of the animal. What other possible choices are there? Certainly this does not mean that it is those other possibilities, but if you had to list the options what would they, in your view, be?
It's a familiar, exactly the same as any other familiar (save you can attach it to your body and grant it fast heal). There is absolutely no other difference stated or implied.
Rules as written the familiar has the abilities of the animal it is mimicking, is treated as a magical beast for the purposes of effects that depend on it's type(as are most if not all non-improved familiars), possesses the abilities of a familiar based on the alchemist's caster level(with some alterations), and can attach and detach from the alchemist gaining fast healing 5 when it is attached. The rules for the ability do not state it gains anything else so by the rules as written it would not gain your racial abilities.
Mechanically if it did gain your racial abilities it wouldn't be that much more powerful in most cases, but there would exist some situations where you could get a lot more power out of it than your GM would expect.
dragonhunterq wrote: It's a familiar, exactly the same as any other familiar (save you can attach it to your body and grant it fast heal). There is absolutely no other difference stated or implied. This is how you believe it works, not how it is worded.
Saperaud wrote: Rules as written the familiar has the abilities of the animal it is mimicking, is treated as a magical beast for the purposes of effects that depend on it's type(as are most if not all non-improved familiars), possesses the abilities of a familiar based on the alchemist's caster level(with some alterations), and can attach and detach from the alchemist gaining fast healing 5 when it is attached. The rules for the ability do not state it gains anything else so by the rules as written it would not gain your racial abilities.
Mechanically if it did gain your racial abilities it wouldn't be that much more powerful in most cases, but there would exist some situations where you could get a lot more power out of it than your GM would expect.
Interesting point, it states it gains the animals abilities but not that it retains yours. Though this is perhaps more of an RAI argument it is still interesting.
If you are saying "It might well be your race but in the absence of an ability stating it retains racial abilities it wouldn't get them." how do you feel about this in context with the racial bonus quote from earlier (See below)?
d20PFSRD wrote:
Racial A racial bonus comes from the culture a particular creature was brought up in or because of innate characteristics of that type of creature. If a creature's race changes (for instance, if it dies and is reincarnated), it loses all racial bonuses it had in its previous form.
Is it unreasonable that it was covered by the way racial bonuses work?
PS - To be clear I am more and more of the opinion there is no absolute answer. IMO by pure RAI it doesn't work, IMO by pure RAW it is ambiguous, and by the fun test IMO its a neat idea. I tend to regulate such things in my game by saying something like "Sure go for it, lets see if something fun can come of it. But abuse it and lose it....".
dragonhunterq wrote: The thing with RAW is that you still haven't established where in the rules your familiar gains your racial abilities. The onus is on you to show where it states the familiar gains your racial abilities.
Or to put it another way - why would it gain your racial abilities?
Tumor Familiar wrote: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body I'm still not seeing the RAW that it's literally part of you, or that it gains your racial abilities.
The familiar is crafted and grown from your own flesh, hair, bones, and blood, at the very least I would have to say that the familiar has elf blood if the alchemist is elven.
This thread is an Embarrassment to the OP. IMOP. Since it is for a home game i suggest you just talk with the GM.
The RAW is that this discovery does what it says it does. It creates a new creature. This creature is statistically identical to a wizard's familiar, expect it can attach to the creating alchemist and, when it does so, gain fast healing.
It isn't an elf or a dwarf or anything similar. It is a tumor familiar.
What's the creature subtype, animal?
felinoel wrote: dragonhunterq wrote: The thing with RAW is that you still haven't established where in the rules your familiar gains your racial abilities. The onus is on you to show where it states the familiar gains your racial abilities.
Or to put it another way - why would it gain your racial abilities?
Tumor Familiar wrote: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body I'm still not seeing the RAW that it's literally part of you, or that it gains your racial abilities.
The familiar is crafted and grown from your own flesh, hair, bones, and blood, at the very least I would have to say that the familiar has elf blood if the alchemist is elven. Where are you getting this information from? I can't find anything to that effect. The ability only states 'creates' not what from. It also states 'on the body' not 'from the body' or something similar.
dragonhunterq wrote: felinoel wrote: dragonhunterq wrote: The thing with RAW is that you still haven't established where in the rules your familiar gains your racial abilities. The onus is on you to show where it states the familiar gains your racial abilities.
Or to put it another way - why would it gain your racial abilities?
Tumor Familiar wrote: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body I'm still not seeing the RAW that it's literally part of you, or that it gains your racial abilities.
The familiar is crafted and grown from your own flesh, hair, bones, and blood, at the very least I would have to say that the familiar has elf blood if the alchemist is elven. Where are you getting this information from? I can't find anything to that effect. The ability only states 'creates' not what from. It also states 'on the body' not 'from the body' or something similar. Quote: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body
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