TWP Rules vs Attack of Opportunity


Rules Questions


How does it work?

For example: I have an off-hand weapon in my hand. When I make a full attack, I use ONLY my primary weapon hand. But when an enemy provokes AOO from me, can i use my off-hand weapon WITHOUT PENALTIES (Primary bonus)?

And what about buckler gun? It is considered an off hand weapon all the time, but what does it mean for purposes of AOO?

Thanks!


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There is no off-hand attacks outside full attacking TWF*, there is no penalty associated to TWF for AoO*.

*(with the exception of two weapon warrior fighter archetype).


TWF rules and penalties only apply when you use the full-attack action to TWF fight.

When you make AoO you can use any weapon that threatened the creature when it provoked.

As for the buckler gun...it is a ranged weapon. Without Snap Shot you do not threaten with it, and cannot make Attacks of Opportunity.


One more question: is it LIGHT weapon ore ONE-HANDED? Is there a type of firearm that is light weapon?


One more question:

Mythic character uses and "off-hand" buckler gun to make an attack with primary bonus for his ADDITIONAL STANDART ACTION (mythic power use), but after the full attack with only the primary weapon.

Are there some penalties?

Shadow Lodge

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No penalties, because you are not using TWF to gain extra attacks. See this FAQ.

The buckler gun is considered a one-handed weapon. There are no firearms that are considered light.

This may be an oversight however. Ranged weapons normally don't have a light/one-handed/two-handed designation. Firearms needed a one-handed/two-handed designation for loading purposes, but they may not have thought to include a light designation for TWF with a firearm, despite the fact that between the buckler gun and the Sword and Pistol feat it's clearly intended to be a valid concept style. If this is a home game, talk to your GM about whether any firearms would be considered light.


Thanks! It is absolutely full answer!


The off-hand weapon must be light in order to give you reduced peanlties on TWF. There are some ranged weapons that state they may be counted as light for TWF penalties, but that is an exception to the standard rule. Thus, if the ranged weapon in question doesn't explicitly say it counts as light, then it doesn't count as light.

Regarding the Buckler Gun, an off-hand weapon only has meaning in the context of TWF. So if you make a standard attack or full-attack not using TWF rules elements, there's no such thing as a main-hand or off-hand weapon and the clause for Buckler Gun is moot. The only real logical way to interpret that is that if you are using TWF, you must designate the Buckler Gun as the off-hand weapon. To illustrate, if you have your Buckler Gun and a Shortsword, you can't say the Shortsword is your off-hand weapon and TWF with Buckler Gun in your main-hand. You must use the Shortsword as the main-hand and the gun as the off-hand.

Shadow Lodge

Kazaan wrote:
The off-hand weapon must be light in order to give you reduced peanlties on TWF. There are some ranged weapons that state they may be counted as light for TWF penalties, but that is an exception to the standard rule. Thus, if the ranged weapon in question doesn't explicitly say it counts as light, then it doesn't count as light.

I agree that's what the rule says, so I stated so in my post. However I also feel that it's relevant to point out places that I think would be particularly good candidates for house rules, and this is one of those cases. (The devs do it too, sometimes: see the FAQs on Spiritual Weapon and Spell Mastery)

I think it is reasonable that the pistol, for example, be considered light for such purposes since it is no harder to use than the hand crossbow (which is specifically called out as light), and it's possible that failing to state that the pistol is considered light was an unintentional ommission on the part of the developers (if for example TWF did not occur to them until later).

As a GM, I would probably allow a player to use the pistol a light weapon, but not the buckler gun as a light weapon - it's described as awkward to use.


The light crossbow is fired as a light weapon, but when used in one hand, you suffer a -2 penalty to attack. So it ends up that TWF using a pair of light crossbows gets to -4/-4 anyway and they didn't want to make using a pistol outright better. Not to mention a pistol will have more of a kick. Now maybe I could see a Coat Pistol (effectively a Derringer) used as a light weapon for TWF, but that's where I'd draw the line.

Shadow Lodge

I was talking about the HAND crossbow.

Hand Crossbow wrote:

Load: Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Note: You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.

This seemed to me to be the best analogy because like a pistol, it is a ranged weapon designed to be fired in one hand. It's also notable that hand crossbows and one-handed firearms are both as easily concealed as light weapons:

Firearms wrote:
Concealing Firearms: Like light weapons and hand crossbows, one-handed firearms are easy to conceal on your person.

While this doesn't have any direct impact on their use in TWF it does say something about their general bulkiness.

I can see three conclusions:

1) Firearms are universally not intended to be easy to use with TWF - thematically because of their "kick"

2) The coat pistol, like the hand crossbow, is specifically designed to be lighter/smaller than comparable weapons at the cost of some stopping power. Thus the coat pistol, but no other firearms, should be treated as a light weapon for TWF.

3) One-handed firearms, like the hand crossbow, are designed to be fired with one hand and can be concealed like light weapons. Some are a bit heavier than a hand crossbow, but not heavier than a light crossbow which can also be used as a light weapon when TWF. The extra -2 penalty on the light crossbow is not significant to the question of whether firearms are light because the light crossbow, unlike a one-handed firearm, is not designed to be fired with one hand.

I would rule (3) as a GM but I would accept any of the three.

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