how do you deal with shadows killing you?


Rules Questions

51 to 100 of 231 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Human Fighter wrote:
I haven't read this all, but got called out on my thread accusing me of making two threads and that it wouldn't change the rules. I was at the table, and the paladin 2/ sorcerer 8 with 15 or 12 str (I forget) str fully min/maxed Jasper Williams who is obviously totally op as hell detected evil, then detected magic in this scenario mentioned above on some brass stone door stuff, and detected nothing causing his curiosity to open the door. Somehow this sprung a surprise round after the door had opened, which I would think he'd see the thing(s), but surprise round. Either both shadows where in this 5ft square, or the one inside surprised, and the other decided to 5ft out and surprise. Greater shadows, and an 8 then 7 were rolled, and we have a collapsed Jasper. From that point it was like, "what is the answer to no save awful" because flat footed touch double suppose shadow bros. isn't something we've experienced.

Ok, having a hard time separating everything in this wall of text. Please use bullet point style writing. :)

First, Paladin2/Sorcerer8...check
Second, Strength 12 or 15...check
Third, Detect Evil...this should have revealed evil on the other side of the door. Shadows are absolutely evil.
Did the GM state there was evil?
Fourth, Detect Magic, this would come up with nothing, Greater Shadows do not (normally) radiate magic.
Fifth, were the shadows within the wall?
Unless the shadows were inside the walls (or adjacent to the door), there should have been no surprise round (surprise only happens if some are aware but others are not).
Sixth, (extra question) did the shadows attack from INSIDE the wall?
If that is the case they should have had a 50% miss chance.

If 3 is no then there might be an appeal to be had. Detect Evil will reveal the number, strength, and direction of auras even through a 1 inch thick metal door. Unless specified otherwise doors should not be greater than this normally.

If 5 is no then a surprise round might not have been the correct GM call.
In order for there to have been a surprise round the Shadows must have been aware of the PCs while some (or all) of the PCs were not aware of the Shadows.

If 6 is a yes and the GM did not roll miss chance then there may be an appeal to be had.


1) Even if the GM is wrong, he is right.
2) There is no appeal. After a PFS session ends, that's it. Accept it and move on.

Also as mentioned before: Tier 7-11 PFS scenarios are deadly. Some more so than others. (I'm looking at you Storval Stairs and Rats of Round Mountain) A single character cannot be prepared for everything. (Like advanced Gugs that kill your VCs character)

But as has been pointed out multiple times, this thread is not about 'get my PFS character back' it's about how to prevent surprise shadow death madness.

And as pointed out, again, deathward is your friend. In this scenario being a divination wizard with said deathward would have helped too.


BaconBastard wrote:
I read the thing on death that makes the lack of healing make sense. Things were worded stupid with people telling me that I become an object when I'm dead.

No, they were right about that. Dead creatures stop being creatures, and become objects. People in the thread have given the "common sense" explanation of why this doesn't work, but you're-not-a-creature-any-more is how that is implemented mechanically. Apart from no longer being a legitimate target for the spell, it also means you no longer have a Strength score to fix.

Gauss wrote:
BaconBastard, so they were immediately on the other side of the door? Yup, that sucks.

Not necessarily. The could have got a surprise round by hearing the party the conventional way (shadows are silent), and charged.

_
glass.


Gauss wrote:
Sixth, (extra question) did the shadows attack from INSIDE the wall?

I am dubious about the ability of shadows to attack from inside a wall full stop. Shadows, unlike wraiths, lack lifesense and therefore have no ability to detect anyone while hanging out inside objects.


Avianfoo wrote:

1) Even if the GM is wrong, he is right.

2) There is no appeal. After a PFS session ends, that's it. Accept it and move on.

Neither of these things are true in PFS. The GM is expected to run things according to the rules, it's pretty much one of the defining elements of organised play that there should be an equivalence of experience at different tables. Sure there are areas where people might legitimately disagree or where they may be unclear but PFS GM's don't just get to make stuff up. While in a lot of cases it might be best to make a decision and move on in order to keep the game flowing if the result of that is character death then it is reasonable to stop and check to make sure you are doing stuff right.

As far as appeals go yes you can totally raise issues with your local Venture Lieutenants or Captain, it is part of their role to deal with these sorts of issues.


As far as spells to deal with Shadows go I highly recommend a scroll or two of Anti-Incorporeal Shell. It lasts as long as deathward and provides an area barrier against all incorporeal creatures not just shadows. It allows SR but there is no save and you could get the entire party inside making the scroll a better choice over deathward.


andreww wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Sixth, (extra question) did the shadows attack from INSIDE the wall?
I am dubious about the ability of shadows to attack from inside a wall full stop. Shadows, unlike wraiths, lack lifesense and therefore have no ability to detect anyone while hanging out inside objects.

Detecting creatures adjacent to the wall is not a function of any specific type of incorporeal creature. ALL incorporeal creatures can do this.

Bestiary p301 Incorporeal wrote:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

Summary: Being inside a wall and aware of adjacent creatures is not dependent upon any sensory ability. It is a function of being incorporeal.


Avianfoo wrote:

1) Even if the GM is wrong, he is right.

2) There is no appeal. After a PFS session ends, that's it. Accept it and move on.

Also as mentioned before: Tier 7-11 PFS scenarios are deadly. Some more so than others. (I'm looking at you Storval Stairs and Rats of Round Mountain) A single character cannot be prepared for everything. (Like advanced Gugs that kill your VCs character)

But as has been pointed out multiple times, this thread is not about 'get my PFS character back' it's about how to prevent surprise shadow death madness.

And as pointed out, again, deathward is your friend. In this scenario being a divination wizard with said deathward would have helped too.

1. That is not true at all for a home game or PFS. The game has the final decision, but there is a large difference between intending to do it by the book and blatantly changing the rules. If I someone think weapon focus gives a +2 bonus to attacks, then I am definitely wrong.

2. I have heard of appeals being granted. I don't know how successful they normally are though, and they can also let a GM know he did something wrong so that it does not happen again. That makes them useful.


andreww wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Sixth, (extra question) did the shadows attack from INSIDE the wall?
I am dubious about the ability of shadows to attack from inside a wall full stop. Shadows, unlike wraiths, lack lifesense and therefore have no ability to detect anyone while hanging out inside objects.

They can do it, but unlike wraiths they suffer a 50% miss chance.

monster rules wrote:


An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

edit: I was ninja'd.


andreww wrote:
Avianfoo wrote:

1) Even if the GM is wrong, he is right.

2) There is no appeal. After a PFS session ends, that's it. Accept it and move on.

Neither of these things are true in PFS.

In the perview of PFS, players can disagree and point out rules to a GM as much as they like, but the GM has the final say. For PFS if GMs are perceived to have done something outside the rules of PFS, they will get a talking to. As wraithstrike said, that is how they learn. Will this return dead characters? Probably not.

Home games: If a GM insists that weapon focus gives a +2 to attacks, it does. This is especially true in home games (what is rule 0?) If a player cannot accept that they are now in the GMs world, they had better look for another hobby (or more malleable GM). But with great power comes great responsibility: to give the players a fun time. If a player doesn't like the +2 weapon focus rule, (as a very arbitrary example) find another GM without such a silly rule. I had a GM once that ruled that hide in plain sight did nothing. The characters with said ability disappeared from that campaign, replaced by other more GM friendly characters.

PFS: the GM will get pointed in the right direction since he is obligated to follow the clear cut rules. But just look at this rules forum and you'll see loads of examples of where the rules arn't that clear. The GM does his best, makes a ruling and we move on.

andreww wrote:

The GM is expected to run things according to the rules, it's pretty much one of the defining elements of organised play that there should be an equivalence of experience at different tables. Sure there are areas where people might legitimately disagree or where they may be unclear but PFS GM's don't just get to make stuff up. While in a lot of cases it might be best to make a decision and move on in order to keep the game flowing if the result of that is character death then it is reasonable to stop and check to make sure you are doing stuff right.

Preaching to the choir here. Everything you have said here does not invalidate my previous statements. The GM has the final say.

andreww wrote:
As far as appeals go yes you can totally raise issues with your local Venture Lieutenants or Captain, it is part of their role to deal with these sorts of issues.

For actual problems, I agree. I encourage people to let their VO know of a problem GM. However appeals to have dead characters returned because you don't like how a GM ran a scenario, is likely to be a waste of everyone's time. Where would the line be drawn? 'That guy' killed my character a year ago. Do I get it back now because he was a bad GM?

Back on topic: good tip on the anti-incorporeal shell scroll. I find a ghostbane dirge scroll to also be quite useful at lower levels.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Home games typically work because a DM can give the perception of risk without requiring real risk. It's one of the great tragedies of organized play that this is not truly possible as people can always read the adventure ahead of time and the DM is not allowed to fudge. (This could be done with APs at home games as well, but most DMs edit them whereas in PFS they are not allowed to.)

Those who complain about scenarios being risk free probably don't understand how probabilities work. If every scenario had a 10% death rate then you would have only a 3% chance of living to see 12th level. Even at a 5% death rate you still only have a bit over an 18% chance to see 12th level. People who want to see their victories come at least in part due to luck at looking at something more like a 10%+ death rate (more for non-optimized folk).

To go a bit more extreme, if you expect that an average scenario will include one death (call it 20% death rate), then you only have a 7% chance of even reaching 5th level, which is when many builds are just getting started. And virtually no-one reaches 12th (0.06% chance).

TL;DR - People want the perception of risk, but PFS makes it basically impossible to have the perception of risk without having real risk, which leads to lots of unlucky rocks-fall deaths that leave no-one satisfied.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

Saying something is tame compared to Gygax is like saying an action move is tame compared to a horror flick. Yeah, it's tame in comparison, but they aren't even really the same genre! Gygax was all about hidden gotchas and auto-kills and not at all about real long-term story. Games these days are about longer character-driven stories.

In the Gygaxian style characters are not special. They exist but their attributes, though varied, are mostly unimportant and they're expected to die rather quickly...more

This rep comes mostly from people playing tournament scenarios in their home games.

If you read the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide, Gygax talks about proper game balance, as it relates to everything from treasure to PC death. PCs are not supposed to die frequently, it is too disruptive to the game.


Now that I am awake and not busy, I'll run down what happened again. I opened some kind of stone cabinet thing and got immediately attacked by two greater shadows for a totally of 15 str damage and got dead real quick. My str score was 14. The arguments of things that I should have done in terms of spells or whatever before opening the cabinet are totally irrelevant because there's no indication of an incorporeal creature chilling in there waiting to kill me. You can't prepare for that level of unknown. I don't lift my toilet lid in my apartment ready for the half celestial dragon ghost in there to use it's breath weapon on me.

That said, I honestly care less about the fact that I died, and care more about figuring out how to make this not a death sentence in the future.

I want to start with breath of life. Breath of life just says that you're alive again as long as you're hp/con is correct. It also says that it doesn't counter death effects. Is a shadow's touch a death effect? As far as I know it's not.


Human Fighter wrote:
could you explain whatever errors that exist, please. We're interested, and often have plenty of personal time with our vc, but wouldn't want to waste their time.

If there was ample warning signs that the place where you went had strong Undead presence, you could have pre-cast Death Ward. It's a high-priority buff in mid-late game.

It's not too outlandish to pre-cast Mage Armor on all your tanky frontliners. It's only a level 1 spell slot to increase your touch AC by 4.

If you were, say, taking a stroll in Uncle-Joe's Farmer's market and petting his cat when you got jumped by two Greater Shadows who managed to get max damage rolls, well, I'd say you're just really really unlucky.

But if you play enough Pathfinder, you eventually will be really really unlucky some day. In one session I ran, my player got killed by a vanilla Frost Giant's full attack with a x3 Axe. The player was really tanky and nobody thought he would die, but I rolled 3 natural 20s in a row.

Edit: Keep in mind, the expected strength damage by two Greater Shadows is 9. The probability that their strength damage is 14 or greater is 6/64 or 9.375%.


glass wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
I read the thing on death that makes the lack of healing make sense. Things were worded stupid with people telling me that I become an object when I'm dead.

No, they were right about that. Dead creatures stop being creatures, and become objects. People in the thread have given the "common sense" explanation of why this doesn't work, but you're-not-a-creature-any-more is how that is implemented mechanically. Apart from no longer being a legitimate target for the spell, it also means you no longer have a Strength score to fix.

_
glass.

Nope. That's not true. Unless you can find me something that says I become an object, I am still a creature. CRB says that a dead creature can't be healed by normal or magical means, so spells with the healing descriptor wouldn't work. That's the explanation that I have, unless something is worded ridiculously somewhere, there is no way I become an object.


BaconBastard wrote:
I want to start with breath of life. Breath of life just says that you're alive again as long as you're hp/con is correct. It also says that it doesn't counter death effects. Is a shadow's touch a death effect? As far as I know it's not.

You are correct. Breath of Life, and you will be alive, but at 0 Str.

Getting jumped by stuff is just one of those things you can't do much about until late in the game. Even then, weird stuff happens, not to mention, crits, natural 1's, etc. Dice games can just be cruel that way. Reminds me of the time a basalisk killed the entire party, even though it was a CR-1 encounter - bad rolls.

Deathward is great, but you can't always have it on. Perhaps some kind of goggles of Undead detection or something?


voideternal wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
could you explain whatever errors that exist, please. We're interested, and often have plenty of personal time with our vc, but wouldn't want to waste their time.

If there was ample warning signs that the place where you went had strong Undead presence, you could have pre-cast Death Ward. It's a high-priority buff in mid-late game.

It's not too outlandish to pre-cast Mage Armor on all your tanky frontliners. It's only a level 1 spell slot to increase your touch AC by 4.

There were no such warning signs.

Mage armor does not increase your touch AC, it gives you an armor bonus that can be applied against incorporeal creatures.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BaconBastard wrote:
glass wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
I read the thing on death that makes the lack of healing make sense. Things were worded stupid with people telling me that I become an object when I'm dead.

No, they were right about that. Dead creatures stop being creatures, and become objects. People in the thread have given the "common sense" explanation of why this doesn't work, but you're-not-a-creature-any-more is how that is implemented mechanically. Apart from no longer being a legitimate target for the spell, it also means you no longer have a Strength score to fix.

_
glass.
Nope. That's not true. Unless you can find me something that says I become an object, I am still a creature. CRB says that a dead creature can't be healed by normal or magical means, so spells with the healing descriptor wouldn't work. That's the explanation that I have, unless something is worded ridiculously somewhere, there is no way I become an object.

That's not what I said. As a dead body, you are no longer a valid target for spells such as restoration. dead bodies don't have ability scores to restore.


LazarX wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
glass wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
I read the thing on death that makes the lack of healing make sense. Things were worded stupid with people telling me that I become an object when I'm dead.

No, they were right about that. Dead creatures stop being creatures, and become objects. People in the thread have given the "common sense" explanation of why this doesn't work, but you're-not-a-creature-any-more is how that is implemented mechanically. Apart from no longer being a legitimate target for the spell, it also means you no longer have a Strength score to fix.

_
glass.
Nope. That's not true. Unless you can find me something that says I become an object, I am still a creature. CRB says that a dead creature can't be healed by normal or magical means, so spells with the healing descriptor wouldn't work. That's the explanation that I have, unless something is worded ridiculously somewhere, there is no way I become an object.
That's not what I said. As a dead body, you are no longer a valid target for spells such as restoration. dead bodies don't have ability scores to restore.

I'm pretty sure that you still have ability scores, they just can't be healed because you're dead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BaconBastard wrote:
Nope. That's not true. Unless you can find me something that says I become an object, I am still a creature. CRB says that a dead creature can't be healed by normal or magical means, so spells with the healing descriptor wouldn't work. That's the explanation that I have, unless something is worded ridiculously somewhere, there is no way I become an object.

Sorry, but if you don't have a wisdom score, you are considered an object.

EDIT: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/gentleRepose.html#gentle-repose
Note: Object.


Also I don't understand why you said that isn't what you said when your second sentence says that dead creatures stop being creatures.


Fergie wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
Nope. That's not true. Unless you can find me something that says I become an object, I am still a creature. CRB says that a dead creature can't be healed by normal or magical means, so spells with the healing descriptor wouldn't work. That's the explanation that I have, unless something is worded ridiculously somewhere, there is no way I become an object.
Sorry, but if you don't have a wisdom score, you are considered an object.

Actually you're just unconscious, but if that was a joke, I enjoyed it.


BaconBastard wrote:
Fergie wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
Nope. That's not true. Unless you can find me something that says I become an object, I am still a creature. CRB says that a dead creature can't be healed by normal or magical means, so spells with the healing descriptor wouldn't work. That's the explanation that I have, unless something is worded ridiculously somewhere, there is no way I become an object.
Sorry, but if you don't have a wisdom score, you are considered an object.
Actually you're just unconscious, but if that was a joke, I enjoyed it.

I think you are confusing a wisdom score of 0 (unconscious), with NO wisdom score (not a creature). When you die, your scores don't go to zero, they go to "-" as in you don't have that score at all.

EDIT:"Wisdom (Wis)

Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score. A character with a Wisdom score of 0 is incapable of rational thought and is unconscious."

EDIT2: PRD - "When a living creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides. "
"Abide"? The Dude Soul Abides!

EDIT3: "Objects: A spell with this kind of area affects objects within an area you select (as Creatures, but affecting objects instead)."
See Gentle Repose spell.


BaconBastard wrote:
So, is there any real way to deal with the str/con instant death? There must be some kind of solution to this.

After perusing through my archives, I think you'll find of interest the Ring of Inner Fortitude from Ultimate Magic. A minor ring prevents 2 points of ability damage or 1 point of ability drain, a major ring prevents 4 damage and 2 drain, and a greater ring prevents 6 damage and 3 drain. The prices 18000, 42000, and 66000, respectively. I hope that helps you in the future.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fergie wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
Fergie wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
Nope. That's not true. Unless you can find me something that says I become an object, I am still a creature. CRB says that a dead creature can't be healed by normal or magical means, so spells with the healing descriptor wouldn't work. That's the explanation that I have, unless something is worded ridiculously somewhere, there is no way I become an object.
Sorry, but if you don't have a wisdom score, you are considered an object.
Actually you're just unconscious, but if that was a joke, I enjoyed it.

I think you are confusing a wisdom score of 0 (unconscious), with NO wisdom score (not a creature). When you die, your scores don't go to zero, they go to "-" as in you don't have that score at all.

EDIT:"Wisdom (Wis)

Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score. A character with a Wisdom score of 0 is incapable of rational thought and is unconscious."

I missed that when I read it before, but you understand my confusion.

Do you have anything aside from the save/sr in gentle repose to support that you are in fact an object? This is what the CRB says about objects under the save section.

"(object)
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level."


Basically it boils down to -
Do you have a wisdom score?
Yes = Creature.
No= Object.

When you are dead, you have no wisdom score.

EDIT: Note that "creature" includes things like undead skeletons and constructs that are not "living" but excludes things like normal trees and plants which oddly are not even considered "living" either (no Con score).


pezlerpolychromatic wrote:
After perusing through my archives, I think you'll find of interest the Ring of Inner Fortitude from Ultimate Magic Equipment.

Fixed that for you.


voideternal wrote:
Human Fighter wrote:
could you explain whatever errors that exist, please. We're interested, and often have plenty of personal time with our vc, but wouldn't want to waste their time.

If there was ample warning signs that the place where you went had strong Undead presence, you could have pre-cast Death Ward. It's a high-priority buff in mid-late game.

It's not too outlandish to pre-cast Mage Armor on all your tanky frontliners. It's only a level 1 spell slot to increase your touch AC by 4.

If you were, say, taking a stroll in Uncle-Joe's Farmer's market and petting his cat when you got jumped by two Greater Shadows who managed to get max damage rolls, well, I'd say you're just really really unlucky.

But if you play enough Pathfinder, you eventually will be really really unlucky some day. In one session I ran, my player got killed by a vanilla Frost Giant's full attack with a x3 Axe. The player was really tanky and nobody thought he would die, but I rolled 3 natural 20s in a row.

Edit: Keep in mind, the expected strength damage by two Greater Shadows is 9. The probability that their strength damage is 14 or greater is 6/64 or 9.375%.

no offense, but I don't understand why you replied to my comment the way you did. I was addressing ozzy because they had mentioned that it wasn't ran correctly by reviewing the scenario.

Myself and bacon hook up the mage armor to avoid touch attacks (incorporeal), and have experienced our fair share of very difficult stuff, and in fact we typically look for only difficult things to play. Over the weekend we were literally asked if the table wanted the game to be ran hard and we agreed, but that gm actually meant "do you want me to cheat", which we still prevailed. We're not playing waking rune until we have players who will all play it hard. I have done.

For other people, we don't play stupid, and at the same time don't metagame and share details of being a certain class or anything with others. We play a role playing game. As mentioned before, we opened a door and proceeded to clear it with detect magic, detect evil, scent etc. but two advanced greater shadows communicated to do a surprise round on the same character. It seemed screwed up, but we're at a convention and we gotta keep the game moving. We get told his body is now an object, and are shown restoration is "creature touched" and even have outside people get involved to be condescending about it. I just politely show breath of life is creature touched, and then we're told some made up story about how shadows work.

He was dead, and others made it more of a big deal than it was at the time. We both tried to quickly figure out a solution other than breath of life, and we coincidently both made threads about it. It would be nice to use this rules form to come to a better understanding of this, and I would like my friend to be alive again if our plan could have actually worked.


Fergie wrote:

Basically it boils down to -

Do you have a wisdom score?
Yes = Creature.
No= Object.

When you are dead, you have no wisdom score.

Please cite where it says that a dead character has no wisdom score. Because it doesn't say that in the injury and death, conditions, or the ability scores section.


BaconBastard wrote:
Fergie wrote:

Basically it boils down to -

Do you have a wisdom score?
Yes = Creature.
No= Object.

When you are dead, you have no wisdom score.

Please cite where it says that a dead character has no wisdom score. Because it doesn't say that in the injury and death, conditions, or the ability scores section.

Just out of curiosity, what do YOU think a dead characters wisdom score is? He isn't "unconscious" so it isn't zero...

OK, I'll give you a hint... he died because he was decapitated, and his head thrown into lava. What is the wisdom score of the rest of the corpse?


Avianfoo wrote:
pezlerpolychromatic wrote:
After perusing through my archives, I think you'll find of interest the Ring of Inner Fortitude from Ultimate Magic Equipment.
Fixed that for you.

Many thanks to you. I had corrected it in my brain, but apparently my hands didn't get the memo.


If you just stop having ability scores then when you get a raise dead or something wouldn't you just be alive with -'s on all your stats? "Common sense" is subjective, and in that game I got pinned and was told I was prone. Pinning someone you'd figure they're prone, but they're not. This is a game, not real life. Table variation will tell you to do "common sense" when rules are unclear I believe for pfs, but it's shaky ground.


Fergie wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
Fergie wrote:

Basically it boils down to -

Do you have a wisdom score?
Yes = Creature.
No= Object.

When you are dead, you have no wisdom score.

Please cite where it says that a dead character has no wisdom score. Because it doesn't say that in the injury and death, conditions, or the ability scores section.
Just out of curiosity, what do YOU think a dead characters wisdom score is? He isn't "unconscious" so it isn't zero...

your ability scores would still be your ability scores. You're just given the dead condition. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.


Fergie wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:
Fergie wrote:

Basically it boils down to -

Do you have a wisdom score?
Yes = Creature.
No= Object.

When you are dead, you have no wisdom score.

Please cite where it says that a dead character has no wisdom score. Because it doesn't say that in the injury and death, conditions, or the ability scores section.
Just out of curiosity, what do YOU think a dead characters wisdom score is? He isn't "unconscious" so it isn't zero...

Being unconscious also doesn't change your wisdom score according to all of those sources, so I would imagine that a dead character still has all it's ability scores it just can't do anything because it's dead. I can't find anything in the rules that would lead me to believe otherwise.


BaconBastard wrote:


Being unconscious also doesn't change your wisdom score according to all of those sources, so I would imagine that a dead character still has all it's ability scores it just can't do anything because it's dead. I can't find anything in the rules that would lead me to believe otherwise.

OK, sure. But do those scores stay with the body, or the soul, which has departed and is in another plane?

Hint: Reincarnation spell.


Fergie wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:


Being unconscious also doesn't change your wisdom score according to all of those sources, so I would imagine that a dead character still has all it's ability scores it just can't do anything because it's dead. I can't find anything in the rules that would lead me to believe otherwise.

OK, sure. But do those scores stay with the body, or the soul, which has departed and is in another plane?

Hint: Reincarnation spell.

That's a weird philosophical question that doesn't have much to do with the rules. That has rules for how Reincarnate works, but it still doesn't say that a dead character's ability scores go away.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Shadow dude hits you, and you drop. Roll 1d4. Breath of life happens, and rules say enough hp/no death effects = you're alive. Congratulations, you no longer have the dead condition. Enjoy your helpless state of 0 str.

If you're an object breath of life doesn't work. Raise dead wouldn't work nor would resurrection etc. You're not an object, but a living breathing man who deserves to be respected and loved just like everybody else!


Human Fighter wrote:

Shadow dude hits you, and you drop. Roll 1d4. Breath of life happens, and rules say enough hp/no death effects = you're alive. Congratulations, you no longer have the dead condition. Enjoy your helpless state of 0 str.

If you're an object breath of life doesn't work. Raise dead wouldn't work nor would resurrection etc. You're not an object, but a living breathing man who deserves to be respected and loved just like everybody else!

It's gunna be rough, but the Steven Hawking lifestyle would probably better suit my character.


BaconBastard wrote:
Fergie wrote:
BaconBastard wrote:


Being unconscious also doesn't change your wisdom score according to all of those sources, so I would imagine that a dead character still has all it's ability scores it just can't do anything because it's dead. I can't find anything in the rules that would lead me to believe otherwise.

OK, sure. But do those scores stay with the body, or the soul, which has departed and is in another plane?

Hint: Reincarnation spell.

That's a weird philosophical question that doesn't have much to do with the rules. That has rules for how Reincarnate works, but it still doesn't say that a dead character's ability scores go away.

My point is that the characters physical body is an inanimate object, with no wisdom score - thus an object.


Human Fighter wrote:

Shadow dude hits you, and you drop. Roll 1d4. Breath of life happens, and rules say enough hp/no death effects = you're alive. Congratulations, you no longer have the dead condition. Enjoy your helpless state of 0 str.

If you're an object breath of life doesn't work. Raise dead wouldn't work nor would resurrection etc. You're not an object, but a living breathing man who deserves to be respected and loved just like everybody else!

He he.

I also found this:
"In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score."
So you would have zero Str, and whatever hp breath of life gave you.

51 to 100 of 231 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / how do you deal with shadows killing you? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.