Saving throws, particularly Will saving throws, seem to be a pretty dire subject. I've seen classes go from reasonable to terrible due to a lack of defense in the Fortitude or Will arena.
So what do I tell new players who hate to fail fortitude and will saves (those are associated with some pretty hated effects.) and want to use their feats to overcome them. As far as I can tell there are two feats per save and one of each doesn't even raise the save which is almost pointless because some Adventure Path DCs and the differences between two player's good and bad saves you're borderline guaranteed to fail if you're playing a class that's incensed to have a >20 wisdom score. Maybe I'm missing out on a lot of feats (there are so many) so I have to ask, are they more ways I'm missing to improve saves? (disregarding magic items, I presume that those advantages go both ways since they're items and it has come up that the players feel silly all being in superhero capes.)
Or is it fair as it is and the players should just wear their capes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The game pretty much assumes that all characters will have the following:
1) Magical Weapon
2) Magical Armor
3) Amulet of Natural Armor
4) Ring of Protection
5) Cloak of Resistance
6) Belt/Headband of relevant stat bonus
These are collectively called the "Big Six". While many people lament the Christmas Tree effect of requiring heros to have these items, it's pretty much expected that they well.
The only exceptions being arcane spell casters who are unlikely to use magic weapon or armor.
|
With a 10 wisdom and iron will, even a low will class should be passing basically all will saves on a 16 or higher. The only exception is if they multi-class like crazy with low will classes or have some other source of penalty.
At 1st level, DC15 would be a high DC. The above character passes it on a 13.
At 10th level, DC21 would be a high DC. The above character passes it on a 14, assuming they have a +2 cloak (cheap at that level).
At 20th level, DC29 would be a high DC. The above character passes it on a 16, assuming they have a +5 cloak.
Toss on a trait for +1 and a wisdom of 12 and you're looking at an unbuffed chance of 50/50 at first level slowly draining to 30/70 at 20th. You can also keep the stanard 40/60->20/80 if you do this but drop iron will.
The main gotcha is people that dump wisdom and/or multi-class 1-2 levels of several low-will classes. You don't want to be rocking the same will save at 10th that you were at 1st. If you have a +4 base and -2 wisdom at 20th level, you need a nat-20 against many will saves (even with iron will AND a cloak), which means you should be rolling a replacement.
Myself, and many others, would express annoyance that cloaks are basically required to keep up on saving throws (DCs grow by 14 whereas even good saves only grow by 10), but the system is balanced on the assumption that players take them.
If they are Charisma based, then suggest Steadfast Personality for the Will Saves. :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
With a 10 wisdom and iron will, even a low will class should be passing basically all will saves on a 16 or higher. The only exception is if they multi-class like crazy with low will classes or have some other source of penalty.
"Pass on a 16" is hardly satisfactory. Failing 75% of your savea (particularly Fort and Will) means your character will be dead or useless most of the time. Saves are really freaking important. They aren't just minor weakneaaes like having lower than average AC... They can make or break your character.
If you need more than an 11 to make the average Fort/Will save... You are going to have a bad time.
The way I see it most things saving throw DCs are 10+ability mod+some rate of advancement. That makes sense for something that a d20 roll has to overcome. With 10 being a baseline 50/50 chance for a d20 roll making it a matter of rolling an attack ability score versus a defensive ability roll. In the case of full casters this is roughly ½ level with a cap of 9. At 20th level the baseline DC is 19+ability score and at 20th level ‘bad’ saves are at +6 and ‘good’ saves are at +12, a three point difference from the cap on spells. With Iron Will and friends and a trait a bad save goes back to 50/50. But because of SADness, Monsters having more HD to compensate for not having class levels, and multiple opportunities to improve DCs the bad save has no chance of catching up even if they dump a ton of feats because there are no feats that deal with it.
So in the core rules there are some corner case feats like Steadfast Personality, Any other feats like that? Are there any third party products covering that base?
Would it be worth it to turn Rings of Protection and Cloak of Resistances into new magic items that take up the Rune Slot, or would opening up the cloak and ring slots be too much of a boon?
|
|
With a 10 wisdom and iron will, even a low will class should be passing basically all will saves on a 16 or higher. The only exception is if they multi-class like crazy with low will classes or have some other source of penalty."Pass on a 16" is hardly satisfactory. Failing 75% of your savea (particularly Fort and Will) means your character will be dead or useless most of the time. Saves are really freaking important. They aren't just minor weakneaaes like having lower than average AC... They can make or break your character.
If you need more than an 11 to make the average Fort/Will save... You are going to have a bad time.
This *is* unbuffed. I would assume that at high level things like Heroism start coming into play to bring that back down to 50/50 or better (aka 11 or better). Not to mention circumstantial benefits (like Bravery or Superstitious) or immunities (whether due to class abilities, race, or just spells like FoM).
Of course, the best strategy is still to ensure you never have to make the save at all, as every save you make is another chance to nat-1 yourself to death. Not always possible, but a surprising number of effects can be blocked in one way or another. An obscuring mist does more to help you "pass" will saves than most things that give you bonuses as it blocks LoS for the cast.
My group has not yet implemented it, but the next campaign we played the above mentioned big six progression is actually going to be baked into level advancement (costing no slots) but our WBL will be reduced by an equal amount.
Well, let me say everything except armor and weapons is going to be baked into character progression. That way you at least have options for what to do with slots that are traiditonally filled by requiring you to have certain things.
|
Turning the cloak of resistance into a rune slot or a slotless item would free up the cloak slot but would probably not have a dramatic affect on the game since there are very few worthwhile cloaks to take up the slack.
In 3.5, the only real competition for the cloak of resistance was the cloak of charisma. That is no longer a cloak in pathfinder. When people obtained vests of resistance, I would sometimes see cape of the Montebank, or cloak of arachnida, or (post magic item compendium) the cloak of elemental protection in that slot. I don't think freeing up the cloak slot would create any dramatic balance changes.
Turning the ring of protection into a cloak slot is more interesting. Of the big six, it is probably the most optional since the AC bonus is both expensive and easily substituted by long duration (magic circle vs. evil) or highly efficient low level (shield of faith, protection from evil), or otherwise highly useful (holy/unholy/etc aura) spells. Thus, you probably don't think about getting it until you can both afford a +3 ring of protection and already have at least a +4 armor/shield (if applicable), dusty rose ioun stone, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, and +3 amulet of natural armor. By the time you can afford all of that, and are starting to think about a ring of protection, it's pretty late game.
Thus, turning the ring of protection essentially slotless wouldn't be a huge deal balance wise because it's not a very efficient item. On the other hand, there are a lot of good rings (counterspells, spell turning, spell storing, blinking, etc) that would be happy to fill up the newly available slot. So, having the extra ring slot is more obviously advantageous than having the extra cloak slot, but that slot is usually available until high levels anyway.
Elder Basilisk,
I'm a little confused by your statement. Are you saying you don't buy a ring of protection before you have armor/shield +4 or other high bonus items?
Because if so, that just doesn't make any sense.
Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp
AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp
Natural armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp
While enhancing armor and shield are the cheapest, it is less expensive to buy a +1 ring of protection or amulet of natural armor (actually it is equal to buying both) than it is to enhance your armor or shield into a +2 item.
A +2 armor will cost 4000 gp. A +1 amulet and +1 ring cost 4000 gold. Because of the bonus squared part of the cost, it is always most efficient to pretty much equally enhance all 3 times instead of raising 1 above the others. Thought the slight price break on armor means it's always best to raise it first when you're upgrading from 1 tier to the next.
For classes capable of casting the spells you mentioned it is a viable strategy, though still hands holes. But for many other classes, it's simply not worth while.
Things to improve saves:
Resistance bonuses -- the cloak is the easiest way, but there are plenty of other means of doing this.
Luck bonuses -- luckstone is the easiest to find but there are others, such as race choices (half orc and halfling for example).
Race choices -- Again half orc and halfling have luck bonuses, dwarves have lots of bonuses and can improve them with feats. Half Elves can gain bonuses too with dual mind.
Feats and traits -- there are many traits that give a +1 bonus to a save throw, and of course feats that do the same. Consider feats that allow you to use a different stat to improve saves too. Feats like Stoic help against some of the more obnoxious effects too.
Stat boosters -- yeah generally you have a specific stat booster to improve what your main shtick is, but usually you are already good enough at that and you can instead get something that will boost your saves more instead. A headband of wisdom +2 is fairly cheap, improves many good skills and improves your save throws.
Starting stats -- Yeah I love an 18 stat to start with too, but if you go with 17 or 16 you can afford to have a 13/14 in a stat to improve your save throw.
It's hardly a valid choice for all characters, but for classes like Fighter that aren't as concerned with level progression, a single level of a high-save class adds an instant bump to saves among all the other potential benefits. A level of Oracle with one of the revelations that moves AC to charisma also grabs a +2 will and can take the Irrepressible trait or the Steadfast Personality feat to angle more will saves off their charisma. A level of Separatist Cleric with the Protection Domain plus whatever other domain one wants gives a +2 will and fortitude along with another +1 to all saves.
I tend to make characters that front load a ton of patch work for will saves when making martials.
-race- half orc for +1 to all saves (+2 with fate's favored), half elf for +2 to will saves and +2 against enchantments with elven immunity, dwarf for +2 against spells.
-12 wis/8 cha is not unreasonable in point buy.
-a +1 will trait or maybe a +2 against enchantments (the worst will saves when you make a murder machine)
-iron will, and perhaps improved iron will. Half elves also have access to a feat that lets them 1/day reroll against enchantmens
Altogether, this makes the caster cleric jealous early on, and puts you on par with the average wizard at later levels. And often, the core of all this can be grabbed by level 3, depending on your build.
|
|
Elder Basilisk,
I'm a little confused by your statement. Are you saying you don't buy a ring of protection before you have armor/shield +4 or other high bonus items?
Because if so, that just doesn't make any sense.
Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp
AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp
Natural armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gpWhile enhancing armor and shield are the cheapest, it is less expensive to buy a +1 ring of protection or amulet of natural armor (actually it is equal to buying both) than it is to enhance your armor or shield into a +2 item.
A +2 armor will cost 4000 gp. A +1 amulet and +1 ring cost 4000 gold. Because of the bonus squared part of the cost, it is always most efficient to pretty much equally enhance all 3 times instead of raising 1 above the others. Thought the slight price break on armor means it's always best to raise it first when you're upgrading from 1 tier to the next.
For classes capable of casting the spells you mentioned it is a viable strategy, though still hands holes. But for many other classes, it's simply not worth while.
Yes, I am saying that generally, it's not worthwhile to buy a ring of protection until you have armor/shield +4, the miscellaneous bonus items, and an amulet of natural armor.
This is true for any character who travels with a party that is willing to work together in a minimal manner--not just spellcasting characters (though I suppose a party that does not have a cleric/oracle/inquisitor/warpriest/etc or a wizard but does have a druid might reverse my priority on deflection and natural armor due to the availability of barkskin and lack of availability for protection from evil/magic circle vs evil/shield of faith/etc).
Your math is correct and demonstrates that in the absence of other considerations, a +1 deflection bonus is cheaper than most of the bonuses I would recommend obtaining before it. However, due to the numerous, low level and efficient means of obtaining a deflection bonus of +2 or higher against the most common foes, all other considerations are not absent. Instead, the +1 deflection bonus you just paid 2000gp for translates into a +0 net increase to your AC at least 50% of the time because standing within ten feet of the cleric or having minimal warning enable you to have protection from evil which gives you a +2 deflection bonus or shield of faith which gives you a +2 to +5 deflection bonus.
In that case, you would want to buy +1 armor with your first 1000gp for magical defense, a +1 shield (if applicable) with your next 1000gp, an amulet of natural armor +1 with the next 2000 gp, a +2 armor with the next 3000 gp, a +2 shield with the next 3000 gp, a jingasa of the fortunate soldier with the next 5000 or so gp, a dusty rose prism ioun stone with the next 5000gp, +3 armor with the next 5000 or so gp. +4 armor/shield with the next 7,000gp, etc. (Note that +3 to +4 armor is only 1000gp more than taking a ring of protection from +1 to +2). Once you have the opportunity to buy a +3 ring of protection for 18,000gp, that is better than you can get out of magic circle vs evil or protection from evil, so I think there's an argument to go for that before +5 armor/shield, or a +4 amulet of natural armor, but shield of faith +3 or +4 says that's not a slam dunk argument. And in a few levels, holy aura's +4 deflection bonus might say, "Don't bother until a +5 ring is in your budget" if your cleric/oracle is inclined to cast holy aura.
If you really want the deflection bonus in the early levels, I'd spend 750 gp on a wand of protection from evil/law/chaos/good (as appropriate) for an ally to use rather than 8,000gp on a +2 ring of protection.
I think the problem with your theory is supposing the spell casters will prepare those spells or have them as spell known.
My problem with use a wand of PfE is that it's limited in what it protects against, and while many enemies are evil. There are also plenty that aren't, in my experience. There are too many variables to make such a general recommendation of "never buy X".
But, we can say that in absence of other things the above list you made seems to be correct in terms of most cost effective AC increases.