Post your most potent 10th level party.
Subsequent posters: Beat said 10th level party with a single 20th level adventurer using standard WBL. OR post a different/better 10th level party for the throwdown. OR beat a posted 20th level adventurer with a 10th level party.
Everything 1st party available on d20pfsrd.com is legal.
THROWDOWN!
These are the only builds I have lying around that are relevant to this discussion.
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What battlefield is this taking place on? A maze of twisty 5 foot passages is much different from a giant open arena.
Do the combatants know the fight is coming? Is pre-buffing allowed? Or is everyone teleported away while shopping in town and suddenly Fight?
I propose the "defender" or "current champion" gets to pick the nature of the battlefield. Challengers should have to defeat the champ on home turf. Champ also gets to decide how many rounds of buffing are allowed.
I feel like Mythic should probably be banned. Though, a level 10/mythic 10 party certainly presents a different set of obstacles.
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heh just play a level 20 cleric, use bead of karma if necessary(+4 CL, so cl of 24), cast holy word or blasphemy etc...whatever alignment the enemy party is not using, the likelyhood of them passing the save is close to 0.
With 10 or more Hd difference, at least 75% of the party will be dead.
edit: Guess since its level 20 , you can even have more shenanigans by playing an oracle + the feat divine protection to make your saves down right ridiculous and the final revelation of oracle, some literally making you immune to most tricks.
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I will toss out a strategy for the level 20 character. I am not posting a full build, since what I am doing doesn't actually let the party interact with the level 20 character in any way. I will run through any relevant numbers when they come up. I am assuming that only long duration spells that are reasonable to have up for most of the day are available as buffs(not that the level 20 character will be using any)
I feel that the thing people should probably be focusing on winning initiative and killing the other side before their turn. I am assuming neither party gets buff time - .
Lvl 20 diviner wizard probably can't be beaten in that respect.
Lets look at initiative boosters (note: some of these boost ability checks - initative is a dex check)
expected Dex - 29 (16 starting + 6 belt + 5 inherent) = +9
Elf fleet footed= + 2
Improved initiative = +4
Appropriate Familiar = +4
Reactionary trait= +2
Luckstone+fate's favored trait = +2
Dueling weapon (something like a cestus)=+4
Courageous +4 weapon (on the same cestus) + moral bonus to ability checks ioun stone= +3
init competance bonus ioun stone= +1
Diviner bonus=+10
total modifier = 41
The diviner auto nat.20s, so a level 10 character needs a total modifier of 42 to have a theoretical chance of beating our diviner.
So far, the diviner's race is locked into elf, Improved initiative+extra traits for reactionary and fate's favored(assuming no starting bonus traits). I quickly added up the cost of all this and it comes out to about 260k. Standard wbl is 880000, so we have about 620k left. Not bad.
Diviner goes first then.
A cl17 scroll of time stop with a maximize metamagic gem baked in (they count as material components so I can't see why this shouldn't be legal; also note that any metamagic from here on in is done with gems - it could also be done with pearls of power and a few staffs of the master, but this would require more gold) costs about 6K(purchase price). He could reasonably have 10 or so of these without putting a huge dent in his WBL
That's 5 minutes of stopped time (albeit with 1 minute spent activating scrolls). No spell slots expended, and the wizard has 560K left.
Lets look at what he can do in this time.
The wizard cannot harm the party. He can, however, disintegrate the ground underneath them (1600 per scroll). He could drop a prismatic sphere below each character (4k a scroll) - when the timestop ends they all fall and insta-die.
I can probably stop here, but note that the caster can turn polymorph into a huge dragon (FOTDIII, 3k) or something else big, hover above the party and use widened spellbane (8k) to neutralise any spell effects he doens't like, which he knows about using analyse dweomer (overland flight is a concern). If the party members have items that are troublesome, wall of suppression works too (I don't know how item will saves from analyze dweomer and time stop interact, but afaik wall of suppression beats pretty much any item or spell a level 10 party could have, so it doesn't really matter).
So far, the caster is looking at under 50k in scrolls. By actually using his spell slots, he can reduce this to just 4k for the maximize gem and 16k if he needs the walls of suppression. This uses up 5 level 9 slots, 1 level 8 slot and 5 level 6 slots (a wizard with 34 int has at least 5 of every slot)
This requires casting 15 or so spells. That is a minute and a half of apparent time. He has 2 and a half minutes left.
The only concern I have with this plan is what to do if one of the party members has natural flight. My tippy skills fail me, and I cannot actually think of a way to do this that a) offers no save and b) doesn't require a favourable GM ruling e.g. dropping big things on them using shrink object to force them into the sphere.
I suppose the caster could spend the next 25 rounds wishing up simulacrums of their favourite demon/empyreal lords for the (surviving) party members to fight, but that would almost be sporting.
Anyone got a better idea?
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Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in an ancient Gold Dragon Body.
Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in an ancient Shadow Dragon Body
Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in Hekatonkheires Titan body.
Lvl 10 Bard... to record it all.
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When it comes to taking on the fighter, a level 10 Witch is probably best. Access to a familiar allows her a good opportunity of beating the Fighter's initiative, and spells can help further this gap. But when it really comes down to it, the witch can target the Fighter's weakest area: his cruddy saves.
Quickened Ill Omen + Persistent Miserable Pity means that unless said level 20 fighter who isn't immune to mind affecting can make 4 consecutive saves then the fighter is going to be completely unable to do the one thing fighters do--attack people. From there, the witch can just pile on debuffs in front of his face and watch what sticks.
Quickened Ill Omen + Persistent Blindness/Deafness? Why not? Maybe even lob a Phantasmal Killer in there, just for kicks. Heck, at this level a Witch of the Elements Patron can spam a Dazing Flaming Sphere a couple of times and target your Reflex save, just for kicks. Even an Unbreakable Fighter is going to have problems with that one. Now imagine having to deal with 4 such witches. How confident are you in your ability to make 16 saves in a single turn?
That said, if I were to build a team, I probably wouldn't have all of them be witches (that's just wrong, man). Maybe a Master Summoner, and maybe a Bard/Skald, because what team is complete without expendable meat shields? Sure, their attack bonuses may not be all that great, but with a couple of boosts and stringent use of Aid Another combined with flanking, it's possible they'll be able to put out some damage (not that it matters when really, the witch is doing all of the work. It just seems more fun that way).
20 Divination Wizard seems hard to beat...who has a party for it?
10 Beast Bonded Witches seems competitive. Rogar, can you give a rundown of their tactics? Who has a L20 to beat it?
I will work on it tonight post something tomorrow. The beast bonded witch is the only way I can think to even the odds.
Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in an ancient Gold Dragon Body.
Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in an ancient Shadow Dragon Body
Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in Hekatonkheires Titan body.
Lvl 10 Bard... to record it all.
For that to work, we would have to agree on how that archetype actually functions. Does the swapping ability that acts as a magic jar count as a continuous magic effect.
If the diviner was wearing sandals of quick reaction or something similar, he could toss up an AMF while timestop is up(which would immediately end the timestop) and fly by all the witches, killing them instantly (and since the soul swap ability is (Su) and thus wouldn't be functioning, they would actually die since their soul would not have anywhere to go).
Assuming that AMF doesn't wreck them though then yeah, that would probably stop that tactic quite nicely. The bard would still die though.
Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in an ancient Gold Dragon Body.
Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in an ancient Shadow Dragon Body
Lvl 10 Beast Bonded Witch in Hekatonkheires Titan body.
Lvl 10 Bard... to record it all.
For that to work, we would have to agree on how that archetype actually functions. Does the swapping ability that acts as a magic jar count as a continuous magic effect.
If the diviner was wearing sandals of quick reaction or something similar, he could toss up an AMF while timestop is up(which would immediately end the timestop) and fly by all the witches, killing them instantly (and since the soul swap ability is (Su) and thus wouldn't be functioning, they would actually die since their soul would not have anywhere to go).
Assuming that AMF doesn't wreck them though then yeah, that would probably stop that tactic quite nicely. The bard would still die though.
How are you flying with AMF.
After thinking about it, the four witches will possess Cthulhu, Pazuzu, Dagon, and Hastur. The wizards AMF will have to function while flying, beat spell resistance 39 to 43, overcome Dr 30 epic or mythic, stop Regeneration 15 to 40 mythic or deific. This assumes these guys rolled a 1 to resist the possession in the first place.
After thinking about it, the four witches will possess Cthulhu, Pazuzu, Dagon, and Hastur. The wizards AMF will have to function while flying, beat spell resistance 39 to 43, overcome Dr 30 epic or mythic, stop Regeneration 15 to 40 mythic or deific. This assumes these guys rolled a 1 to resist the possession in the first place.
Just wondering could you explain how those level 10 witches are going to possess those Old Ones?
I think i'm missing something.
After thinking about it, the four witches will possess Cthulhu, Pazuzu, Dagon, and Hastur. The wizards AMF will have to function while flying, beat spell resistance 39 to 43, overcome Dr 30 epic or mythic, stop Regeneration 15 to 40 mythic or deific. This assumes these guys rolled a 1 to resist the possession in the first place.Just wondering could you explain how those level 10 witches are going to possess those Old Ones?
I think i'm missing something.
Again, as I said above, this assumes the old ones rolled a 1 on their saves.
Again, as I said above, this assumes the old ones rolled a 1 on their saves.After thinking about it, the four witches will possess Cthulhu, Pazuzu, Dagon, and Hastur. The wizards AMF will have to function while flying, beat spell resistance 39 to 43, overcome Dr 30 epic or mythic, stop Regeneration 15 to 40 mythic or deific. This assumes these guys rolled a 1 to resist the possession in the first place.Just wondering could you explain how those level 10 witches are going to possess those Old Ones?
I think i'm missing something.
I more so meant how the 10th level witches are encountering the old ones to begin with and not being killed or frightened from just being in their presence.
Fortunately for the sake of this mental exercise I don't think that part is necessary. However rereading about Cthulu the moment his mind is removed from body, the body is destroyed. The other three however are not affected.
But a nat 20 on a save is still a save.
So a lot of assumptions can be made in preparation for encounter.
We can assume 100's of witches died trying to join the A-team. Prerequisite be in posession of a creature's body of untold power.
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You could, perhaps, consider them as a massive overload of level 10 witch self-simulacrums from a level 20 witch with a winter hag in her coven.
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I'm not disagreeing with the absurdity here, but I think the situation could presuppose that the 4 witch team gets to bring along help if the higher level witch gets to bring along help.
Down that path lies madness! So carry on... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
I will toss out a strategy for the level 20 character. I am not posting a full build, since what I am doing doesn't actually let the party interact with the level 20 character in any way. I will run through any relevant numbers when they come up. I am assuming that only long duration spells that are reasonable to have up for most of the day are available as buffs(not that the level 20 character will be using any)
I feel that the thing people should probably be focusing on winning initiative and killing the other side before their turn. I am assuming neither party gets buff time - .
Lvl 20 diviner wizard probably can't be beaten in that respect.
Lets look at initiative boosters (note: some of these boost ability checks - initative is a dex check)
expected Dex - 29 (16 starting + 6 belt + 5 inherent) = +9
Elf fleet footed= + 2
Improved initiative = +4
Appropriate Familiar = +4
Reactionary trait= +2
Luckstone+fate's favored trait = +2
Dueling weapon (something like a cestus)=+4
Courageous +4 weapon (on the same cestus) + moral bonus to ability checks ioun stone= +3
init competance bonus ioun stone= +1
Diviner bonus=+10
total modifier = 41
The diviner auto nat.20s, so a level 10 character needs a total modifier of 42 to have a theoretical chance of beating our diviner.So far, the diviner's race is locked into elf, Improved initiative+extra traits for reactionary and fate's favored(assuming no starting bonus traits). I quickly added up the cost of all this and it comes out to about 260k. Standard wbl is 880000, so we have about 620k left. Not bad.
Diviner goes first then.
A cl17 scroll of time stop with a maximize metamagic gem baked in (they count as material components so I can't see why this shouldn't be legal; also note that any metamagic from here on in is done with gems - it could also be done with pearls of power and a few staffs of the master, but this would require more gold) costs about 6K(purchase...
Lv 20 Divine Strategist with Tactics Inquisition is the king of initiative...
I provided a slightly less ridiculous method for the generation of 1000s of witches that both parties could exploit to the same extent...
In reality (in my interpretation, at least), the duel is between 2 level 20 witches. However, one witch sends 4 of her most powerful simulacra out to fight the opponent witch (without outside interference)
Both witches could generate simulacra at the same rate by producing a winter hag and a self-clone --> this coven produces 1 free simulacrum per round.
Better rates are obtained by producing a new winter hag after every 2 witches and splitting off into new covens.
- Finding the ridiculous creatures (Unique Eldritch Horrors? Probably hard to find) would probably be more time consuming than getting enough witches to guarantee a possession.
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I'm not arguing that its not obnoxious -- it is -- but it's probably just as accurate to presume that both level 20 witch simulacra would have difficulty possessing equivalently stupidly powerful entities, so that the only appreciable power difference is a single level 20 PC. When you have a really obnoxious CR, one additional level 20 character is significantly less of a factor than the random chance in the dice.
20 Divination Wizard seems hard to beat...who has a party for it?
That Divine Strategist build that promptly grants the rest of the party init while still acting roughly as fast as the Divination Wizard. With two full casters going first and boosting the init of whatever martial characters happen to be on their "team" you place the odds in their favour.
Any of the elemental sorcerers, specifically fire. So orc bloodline/fire whatever for more damage. Time stop, then with a trait to reduce metamagic on say delay blast fireball just cast that 3 times maximized for all of the damage. Only poses a problem if any of them are immune to fire as in actually immune in which case it's probably one one left, take the blow then use your remaining spells for more hurt.
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there are zero 4 man level 10 parties that can defeat a level 20 wizard. High level spells are too powerful
What are you saying? That 4 woman level 10 parties can?
That's sexist.
there are zero 4 man level 10 parties that can defeat a level 20 wizard. High level spells are too powerful
I disagree, I proposed a highly unlikely nearly impossible way that a 4 person level 10 party could theoretically defeat a lvl 20 wizard.
there are zero 4 man level 10 parties that can defeat a level 20 wizard. High level spells are too powerfulWhat are you saying? That 4 woman level 10 parties can?
That's sexist.
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...Conversely, when it is prophesied that no man can defeat me, I will keep in mind the increasing number of non-traditional gender roles.
Lvl 20 Geysermancer says hello. Then says goodbye.