Goblin Squad Member
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So, my character spawned in EBA territory. I do not want to join EBA. But now I must either seek permission to gather where I was "born" or leave? How nice of you guys. I do not mind you claiming hexes, but to also claim all the resources as your property truly seems like theft. Theft of both resources and theft of game enjoyment. Let me ask this openly: If I ask for permission will you tax my gathering?
I am still learning this complex game. It is not a given that I will keep playing it. I see your threat of killing me simply for for gathering as a reason not to keep playing. I do not enjoy paying money to be bullied.
If you want, Skorn. You can Join a Highroad Covenant member like Talonguard, and have freedom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EBA establishing boarders and saying they will defend/enforce those boarders is not Evil, it is Lawful. Ignoring those boarders to take the resources anyway with the belief that nobody owns the land is Chaotic, not Evil. Denying the boarders and claiming you have a right to that land not the EBA is actually also Lawful, and is the reason wars can be fought between two "Lawful Good" organizations. Of course two Lawful Good organizations are more likely to sit down and negotiate a boarder then to run off and fight each other.
There will still be people sneaking in to "steal" resources from EBA territory who don't see it is a "Crime" or "Stealing" because they are of a Chaotic alignment and don't believe you can own anything you don't have in hand. (You have what you Hold is a very Chaotic Alignment type statement.)
Technically asking permission to harvest is a Lawful act, but one many "Chaotic Good" characters would be willing to do with more of a view of not wanting to get killed then because it is the Law. (Chaotic people only follow Laws to avoid the Consequences, not because it is the Law, if they think they can do something without getting in trouble, they will.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, my character spawned in EBA territory. I do not want to join EBA. But now I must either seek permission to gather where I was "born" or leave? How nice of you guys. I do not mind you claiming hexes, but to also claim all the resources as your property truly seems like theft. Theft of both resources and theft of game enjoyment. Let me ask this openly: If I ask for permission will you tax my gathering?
I am still learning this complex game. It is not a given that I will keep playing it. I see your threat of killing me simply for for gathering as a reason not to keep playing. I do not enjoy paying money to be bullied.
You could head North to Ozem's Vigil or Forgeholm if LG Cleric/Fighter settlements interest you. Both the Free Highlanders area and High Road Covenant would be more than happy to help you find your footing in game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could head North to Ozem's Vigil or Forgeholm if LG Cleric/Fighter settlements interest you. Both the Free Highlanders area and High Road Covenant would be more than happy to help you find your footing in game.So, my character spawned in EBA territory. I do not want to join EBA. But now I must either seek permission to gather where I was "born" or leave? How nice of you guys. I do not mind you claiming hexes, but to also claim all the resources as your property truly seems like theft. Theft of both resources and theft of game enjoyment. Let me ask this openly: If I ask for permission will you tax my gathering?
I am still learning this complex game. It is not a given that I will keep playing it. I see your threat of killing me simply for for gathering as a reason not to keep playing. I do not enjoy paying money to be bullied.
@Skorn,
You can also choose to travel to Aragon, where you will be free to do as you please and be helped by fellow free spirited folk. We live by the River Freedoms, and not by laws, limitations or permissions.
So, how's this working out, so far? ;-)
Some time ago I first played a game named Darkfall. I found that game to be a community largely inhabited by uncaring individuals, with a few little gems here and there. See the thing was, all of the veteran groups primarily lived on these four islands in the corners of the map. They had the best monsters and loot, and less chance of random attack.
The mainland was where the Newbs started. The weakest monsters were there and there were many players using them to level and earn resources. There were also more experienced players, primarily on the mainland to farm easy kills and take things from the Newbs.
Most of the veteran groups viewed these players as bottom feeders and would kill them on sight but they rarely came to the mainland to help. The Newbs had to fend for themselves and often left because of it.
You could go out to the islands to live with the veteran groups but only if you joined them. Players who didn't want to sign their soul away to one of the major alliances had nowhere to go.
Eventually I found a group that really did care called Honor Guard. They spent much of their time in the starter areas helping new players and fighting on their behalf. I spent about 6 months in HG leveling and practicing before the tediousness of the grind got to me and I took a break.
When I came back HG had folded into a group called "Ruff Knights", which while not a bad group, was another uncaring veteran group. I went back where my heart called me. To the starter areas. There I found a group without a single veteran among them called FIST struggling to establish themselves as they were relentlessly hounded by another called Fallen Lords.
Their cause spoke to me and I joined them, but within less than a week the leader gave up, and called on anyone willing to take his place. I had quickly risen to a place of prominense in this relatively new group so and felt it had come to far to just be abandoned. When I offered to step up the remaining members readily rallied behind me.
I re-established the group on the doctrine of being the ones who cared. The voice of the voiceless who would stand and defend the Newbs otheres left to their fate. To be everything these uncaring veteran groups were not.
My followers were rowdy, eager to fight, and ready for revenge against the players and kinda of players that bullied them around as fist. Almost all of them would be labeled as "toxic" in the PFO community but they were passionate about our new mission. We trained, we grew, and by the time Darkfall's shutdown was announced we had esblished an alliance that was constantly running around the mainland helping Newbs and killing those who preyed on them to great effect.
But I always knew Darkfall's community would never change as much as we wanted it to. That's why I decided to establish a group founded on the same principles in a new community less set in it's ways.
A group with a passion for defending the weak. The polar opposite of the uncaring veterans of Darkfall who sit in the corner of the map looking to their own interests. A group that would put their passion for helping people and defending the weak beyond all else. While the group did start accepting non-militant members as our popularity grew, they were brought in with the understanding they were joining a group who's first and foremost mission was to help people.
When they secluded themselves in the corner of the map, as far from Newbs as possible to protect their ability to farm with less danger of random attack they told me it was because their mission had changed. They were less concerned with changing the culture of PFO and creating a safe haven for Newbs to come live under their protection.
Why is it then, that you have shut out the Newbs you were supposedly establishing this haven for unless they seek your permission to be there? What kind of haven are you if you will not even allow Newbs to come to your land to quest and gather without calling it "hostile action".
By what right do you still claim to be defenders of the weak, and call yourselves good? What do you do in this community that Golgotha and Aragon do not?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is you, yes? You sound pretty icky to me.
"VENETHORN'S VIPERS
Role: Hired killers
Alignment: Undetermined
Requirements to Join: Must be trained in either stealth or disguise
Venethorn's Vipers is a company looking for those who want to specialize purely in the dispensing of death. We do this through feuds and the fulfillment of contracts.
Our leadership style is simple. I or my wife Izabelle find contracts that seem profitable or appealing. You either help us fulfill that contract or find a new company. This is not a democracy or a group that has time to be burdened with bureaucracy. This is a group about getting profitable contracts and being extremely efficient at fulfilling them. Less members mean less people to split the money between so we don't want you if you get in the way of us doing our jobs efficiently."
Name: The Empyrean Order
Alignment: Neutral Good
Preferred Alignments: LG/NG/CG
Purpose: Community betterment, protection of the weak, and promotion of justice.
Player Roles Accepted: All
Website: covenantofthepheonix.com
History: The Empyrean Order is a group established for the purpose of championing the ideals of positive gameplay in Pathfinder Online. Our early involvement in the community and strong mission statement garnered a wealth of support which has solidified our dedication to the purpose. Because of our identification with this purpose, we have officially become the Pathfinder Online branch of the Covenant of the Pheonix Gaming Community. Joining us will extend to joining them, allowing you to benefit from the opportunities they offer to enjoy other games together during the long wait for Pathfinder Online. Individual chapters still receive a fair amount of autonomy meaning that our leadership and structure which revolves around Pathfinder Online is dedicated to the title.
Ideology: The Empyrean Order believes that just because you can do something in a game, that doesn't necessarily mean you should. To that end, we want Pathfinder Online to have a community where -- even though Open World PVP is enabled -- random Player Killers are a fringe element rather than mainstream, and griefers are nearly non-existent. We also believe in helping new players, reaching out to the rest of the community, and generally making Pathfinder Online a better world for people to enjoy together.
Who Should Join TEO?: Everyone who agrees with the above ideology and wants to be a part of an organization that puts it into action. Beyond our military and militia, we have five guilds: one focused on combat training and creating combat events, one focused on helping people and community outreach, one...
Is this you? Sounds like a load of crap to me.
I have a lot of identities. Some meant to allow me to cozy up with evil players and get information from them, some that are nicer.
But this isn't about me, it's about you not being who you claim to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By what right do you still claim to be defenders of the weak, and call yourselves good? What do you do in this community that Golgotha and Aragon do not?
I will not speak for Golgotha, but for Aragon I will say this....
Unlike the EBA, Aragon does not declare territory its own and threaten any with military reprisal for passing through, harvesting resource nodes, or monster nodes or hexes. We do not say, "Get our permission, get off our grass, or die!" Aragon is not an NBSI practicing settlement.
What we also would not do is actively recruit new players to travel to our lands, without warning them that they bear significant risk in entering an active war zone. Worse yet, they are told they are safer there, than in most places.
Even in EvE Online, I informed new recruits of the war status of the corporation, and gave the recruit the option to remain out of our ranks until the war dec was over.
Aragon would not show such a blatant disregard for new players as to have them blindly enter a conflict.
So to answer your question from the opposite premise, Aragon has comported itself in a far more approachable way than either of the major alliances. At least in Golgotha's case, they describe themselves as Lawful Evil, so you would not expect them to be warm and fuzzy towards the weak, and unaffiliated.
Aragon has always been open to all, including those that have considered themselves our enemies. We follow the River Freedoms and will remain independent of the major power blocks.
Walk Any Road, Float Any River: This freedom implies no safety while traveling, especially from the local lord. It merely prevents lords from blocking land and water travel, or charging tolls for passing (except for non-Riverfolk). Of course, any ruler who doesn’t want people on his roads can bar them without erecting a single block—threats, bribes, political pressure, or hiring “bandits” are just as effective.
However, in practice, it means no lord can take his or her people for granted. Most Riverfolk do not leave their homes for anything but essential travel, no matter who is in charge (and poor Riverfolk usually have nowhere else to go), but they might still move to a new kingdom if their lord is abusive. This escape is rarely necessary. A lord who wants a functioning kingdom knows not to treat subjects too harshly, or the best ones will disappear, leaving a half-empty kingdom behind.
We include in this our interpretation that the requirement of seeking permission to enter, under threat of force of reprisal, is in fact a bar to free passage.
You Have What You Hold: In contrast to many other civilizations on Golarion, this freedom draws a moral distinction between robbery and mere stealing. Taking something by force is considered acceptable, even begrudgingly praiseworthy. Burglary, on the other hand, is punishable under common law. The difference is in allowing a victim the ability to resist, the opportunity to face his or her robber, and to plan for repossession if so desired. This allows for a rough honesty, letting Riverfolk know and face their enemies.
We see this as applying to resource or monster nodes as they are your's, for as long as you can hold them.
We have not, nor would not, retaliate against any person, company or settlemrnt for freely exercising their rights under the River Freedoms.
TL;DR: Please do not compare Aragon to EBA, we actually "say as we do, and do as we say". No false pretenses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Everbloom Alliance is friendly to strangers and helpful to all. We welcome visitors and are happy to talk to anyone interested in operating in our area. Generally, we're happy to let folks harvest or join us to fight escalations, but those resources are limited and therefore they need to be properly managed.
Known enemies in EBA Territory will be killed without any questions unless they've arranged for a proper escort first. It should be fairly easy to identify the folks on the forums who are "known enemies" :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Everbloom Alliance is friendly to strangers and helpful to all. We welcome visitors and are happy to talk to anyone interested in operating in our area. Generally, we're happy to let folks harvest or join us to fight escalations, but those resources are limited and therefore they need to be properly managed.
Known enemies in EBA Territory will be killed without any questions unless they've arranged for a proper escort first. It should be fairly easy to identify the folks on the forums who are "known enemies" :)
How can the community accept that you speak for the Everbloom Alliance in one post, where in previous posts you explain that Phaeros is not bound by agreements made by said alliance?
Your word, to put it bluntly, does not match your past actions.
Escalations are not limited, except if they are depleted to 0%, and even then they will eventually respawn. Regular resource nodes will respawn fairly quickly a few yards away.
Unquestionably, characters are freer to travel in and around Aragon, than near Phaeros (which is the only settlement you apparently can speak for).
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Goblin Squad Member
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We include in this our interpretation that the requirement of seeking permission to enter, under threat of force of reprisal, is in fact a bar to free passage."Come in, come in," said the spider to the fly.
You can not speak truthfully of any character being attacked by citizens of Aragon, in its adjacent hexes, since the removal of the towers.
Even in the few instances of husk looting that have taken place, on three occasions the loot was returned to the owner, if they were known to us. In all cases in recent weeks, when the owner returned and was not known to us, they were allowed to retrieve the remainder and go in peace.
"You have, What You Hold."
I has always been our policy not to commit acts of banditry within Aragon's hex or its immediate six adjacent hexes, looting husks is fair game.
Your own alliance (at least some of them) have more credibility issues than my settlement does, and we are supposed to be the "bad guys".
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Goblin Squad Member
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... you explain that Phaeros is not bound by agreements made by said alliance?
That's not true. The agreement you're referring to was never ratified by the Everbloom Alliance.
Escalations are not limited...
Phaeros does not farm Escalations outside of EBA Territory unless invited. We have primary responsibility for four Monster Hexes inside EBA Territory. As such, they are a limited resource and need to be properly managed.
Thanks for presenting me the opportunity to clear up those misconceptions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... you explain that Phaeros is not bound by agreements made by said alliance?That's not true. The agreement you're referring to was never ratified by the Everbloom Alliance.
Escalations are not limited...Phaeros does not farm Escalations outside of EBA Territory unless invited. We have primary responsibility for four Monster Hexes inside EBA Territory. As such, they are a limited resource and need to be properly managed.
Thanks for presenting me the opportunity to clear up those misconceptions.
Is your "known enemy list" ratified by the EBA? Why are you and Decious the only ones that mention it?
I have a better than strong feeling that you are just speaking for Phaeros, because I have traveled to Brighthaven, and was not attacked outright. Nor has Brighthaven and Aragon, had any negative interaction in game.
It is you and perhaps Phaeros that appears to be the "rogue entity" within the EBA. Now before you jump to it, I'm not driving a wedge or trying to, you're probably doing that well enough on your own.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well considering that we have vowed to protect the university, we have gone and help cleared bothersome escalations for them, and provided them with recipes and other gear at different times, as well as supporting their staff with higher end armor.....
Newbs are going to either their new settlements or PFU, PFU is a highly concentrated place in which we can practice the betterment of the community and protection of the new players.
In general, the entire server protects new players, the community is very supportive of the university, as well as making sure new players get a chance. In this new patch, we may even be able to tell if and when someone is new, which helps the situation out so much more.
This isn't Darkfall, nor will it ever be that terrible to new players, and with a good community that supports new players making the choice to buy into the game, there is multiple support systems in place for new players to expand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bluddwolf
**clap, clap**
Very amusing, and deceptive, as usual. Two plus years of pontificating and espousing ganking, banditry, dirty tricks, and manipulation of mechanics to further advance your agenda. How was the philosophy and agenda of the UNC (and later Aragon) delivered for those two plus years? How about the policies and agenda of Golgotha?
I do wonder why the EBA came out ready to rumble. Probably has nothing to do with two plus years of forum fun in which they were assured that they would fail, be outclassed in PVP, and in general be unable to "survive" in this deadly game.
Please note that I (personally) have no problem with your endlessly pontificating your point of view or that it changes to suit the current events. Nor objection (personally) with your core stated goals of banditry. We have both evolved as the community has evolved. My own attitudes have most definitely changed. Strengthening in a "character" sense and loosening in an "OOC" sense.
It is far more honest to be forthright in publically expressing your policies than it is to deceive endlessly and repeatedly the newer people to these forums. Anyone that reads your post (above) and believes that they are safe from your members, in your area of Ops, has been mislead by you.
At least Golgotha is honest in that they will most likely go after any they see (in an area near them) that is not a known friend. Also that they go on "occasional murder walkabouts".
From what I have observed, the EBA (all member states within) are very open to new players visiting, trading, adventuring within their publically claimed territory. Most assuredly if those persons ask first. They do not attack people that are not known enemies. Their policy may be to attack any members of known enemy organizations that trespass. How would you deal with a similar situation? I mean if you had some members? Is there a better way to protect and preserve your local area for your members, considering that resources are not immediately infinite?
I would go so far as to state that any sizable group which does not try to protect it's members and preserve an area for them to play and harvest, will have problems. Endless problems.
Claims to territory do not have to be respected by everyone. They are, like all things here: "yours if you can hold them". Claims and perceived ownership is what this game is about. It is not EVIL to declare territory for your members. It is not wrong to enforce those claims.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bringslite,
Have you traveled at all to the hexes around Aragon? Have you ever been assailed by bandits from Aragon, within those hexes?
Nor have I or any of UNC, now Aragonian Council, ever set foot near Ozem's Vigil or the North West in general.
Produce for me any account, with evidence of course, that any listed member of Aragonian Council has done so. We consolidated UNC back on March 31. Both AGC and Maugrimor Clan have moved to EOX (Golgotha and K-Berz).
Even before that, our instances of banditry were few and far between, simple reason for that, there are so few people actually playing that we could cross 30 hexes and pass through many settlements and not see a single other character. I don't expect that May 1 will produce anything but a further drop in population, and likely a significant one.
Banditry is quite simply not viable in the current state of the game. So yes, there is a shift, one we are forced to make due to the lack of content and mechanics. But what hasn't shifted is our policy towards actions within our immediate area. "Dogs don't sh#t where they eat or sleep", has always been our stated policy. The only conflict that used to occur nearby was tower related.
So take a stroll if you're not too frightened to do so, bring some light to shine on your misconceptions (LOL, you see what I did there?). ;-}
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bringslite,
Have you traveled at all to the hexes around Aragon? Have you ever been assailed by bandits from Aragon, within those hexes?
Nor have I or any of UNC, now Aragonian Council, ever set foot near Ozem's Vigil or the North West in general.
Produce for me any account, with evidence of course, that any listed member of Aragonian Council has done so. We consolidated UNC back on March 31. Both AGC and Maugrimor Clan have moved to EOX (Golgotha and K-Berz).
Even before that, our instances of banditry were few and far between, simple reason for that, there are so few people actually playing that we could cross 30 hexes and pass through many settlements and not see a single other character. I don't expect that May 1 will produce anything but a further drop in population, and likely a significant one.
Banditry is quite simply not viable in the current state of the game. So yes, there is a shift, one we are forced to make due to the lack of content and mechanics. But what hasn't shifted is our policy towards actions within our immediate area. "Dogs don't sh#t where they eat or sleep", has always been our stated policy. The only conflict that used to occur nearby was tower related.
So take a stroll if you're not too frightened to do so, bring some light to shine on your misconceptions (LOL, you see what I did there?). ;-}
There are a couple of things that I completely agree with here (unless I am mis-grokking your words).
1. There are too few people about to make banditry viable. If I were wanting to play a straight bandit (roam and rob, possibly roam and murder/loot), I would likely be disappointed in the number of available opportunities. The current level of danger and caution needed to play (so far and by pretty much anyone in the North) is adding up as a "FAIL" (I can only speak of my own opinion there).
2. I have no reports that the Aragonian Council Members were ever involved in any skirmishes with any from Ozem's Vigil. I am a bit disappointed. :( Most of Ozem's clashes (with others) have involved a current company (then) sponsored by Aragon or Freevale. That is evening out as time passes. We used to see one or two toons around. It has seemed empty for some time though.
We regularly (including myself) move through your area.
As time has passed, since EE started, the rep hit has been greatly reduced and the recovery rate greatly increased. This to the point that even good guys can afford some kills.
Having said all of that, I do not believe that, if you were ingame and saw a juicy target, you would ignore it. I firmly believe that (aside from AGC and Maugrimor) your members are not doing banditry because:
1. The political climate makes it too risky.
2. Your members are not interested enough in the game as it is right now. <-- Many reasons for that
3. The rewards are not worth the risk or their time, yet.
GW, please read.
In closing: I would not mind GW examining the core reasons why the game is so lopsided that there is not really any sense of danger or barely any caution is required to play outside of our (personal) general areas. As long as they do not fix that to the point that it is totally unbalanced in the other direction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having said all of that, I do not believe that, if you were ingame and saw a juicy target, you would ignore it. I firmly believe that (aside from AGC and Maugrimor) your members are not doing banditry because:
1. The political climate makes it too risky.
2. Your members are not interested enough in the game as it is right now. <-- Many reasons for that
3. The rewards are not worth the risk or their time, yet.
Juicy Targets?? It has been over a month since I've seen a "slow moving node" and never near Aragon.
Political climate means nothing, we have nothing to lose, no towers and only have to remain above -2500 to have access, pretty easy to do that.
Members are clearly not interested in the game, but that is across the board I think. This will become even more apparent once Month 4 of KS ends.
Rewards are limited and to be honest, there is just as much chance if not more to stumble upon at husk and looting that.
You'll notice above, I don't take husk looting off the table. You are safe, just don't die and expect to find your stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do wonder why the EBA came out ready to rumble. Probably has nothing to do with two plus years of forum fun in which they were assured that they would fail, be outclassed in PVP, and in general be unable to "survive" in this deadly game.
To be fair, I think the majority of that came from Andius.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf, can you take it to another thread, please?
@Caldeathe, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but it's not helpful.
@ Nihimon,
I was responding to a statement that was trying to equate Aragon's policies to the policies of EAB or EoX, neither of which are similar to ours.
Any time the settlement of Aragon, the companies of UNC or Argonian Council, or any member of UNC or AC are brought up, I will respond. I will clarify misrepresentations or point out where unintentional mistakes have been made.
What Caldeathe was doing was clarifying a point that was mistaken. Bringslite appeared to be attributing something to me or to UNC in general, which Andius had said.
Now, as long as there is no future need for clarification, I will take my leave of this thread. I would hope that Bringslite amend his bolded statement above, since by his own admission, nothing that I claimed was proven false.
Well considering that we have vowed to protect the university, we have gone and help cleared bothersome escalations for them, and provided them with recipes and other gear at different times, as well as supporting their staff with higher end armor.....
Newbs are going to either their new settlements or PFU, PFU is a highly concentrated place in which we can practice the betterment of the community and protection of the new players.
In general, the entire server protects new players, the community is very supportive of the university, as well as making sure new players get a chance. In this new patch, we may even be able to tell if and when someone is new, which helps the situation out so much more.
This isn't Darkfall, nor will it ever be that terrible to new players, and with a good community that supports new players making the choice to buy into the game, there is multiple support systems in place for new players to expand.
There have been a lot of threats to PFU then? And I'm sure you are the only alliance helping them out? And this has nothing to do with wanting their members to join you after their stay in PFU?
The EA puts it's own membership and their interests above the rest of the community just like any other group. The only difference between them and Aragon and Golgotha is that Aragon and Golgotha don't pretend to be community first organizations, that... and they haven't locked their borders to outsiders looking to harvest and PvE, defining adventuring in their lands as "hostile action."
What's the point of even having this policy then if acceptance is guaranteed? Wouldn't it be simpler to say "Hostile factions can't harvest in our lands."
Given that Brighthaven was founded on the principle of being a safe haven for all but your enemies to come and find a place to play in peace under the protection of TEO what's the point of telling everyone they need prior permission?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There have been a lot of threats to PFU then? And I'm sure you are the only alliance helping them out? And this has nothing to do with wanting their members to join you after their stay in PFU?
The EA puts it's own membership and their interests above the rest of the community just like any other group. The only difference between them and Aragon and Golgotha is that Aragon and Golgotha don't pretend to be community first organizations, that... and they haven't locked their borders to outsiders looking to harvest and PvE.
Again.... To clarify.... And to be fair...
PFU has been supported in concept by all major powers: EBA, EOX, The Highlanders, Nation Of Kathalphas, etc... To my knowledge, graduates have been directed to join EOX, EBA and perhaps the Highlanders. Although none have been directed to the Nation of Kathalphas (Aragon primarily), I'm hoping that changes.
Second clarification, Aragon does not claim territory nor restrict harvesting in its surrounding areas. We also do not have a monster hex, so there is little escalation activity to be harvested. Both EAB and Golgotha do have such restrictions, unless apparently, permission is asked.
Of course, we place our settlement and in particular our company's interests first, no difference there for anyone.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What's the point of even having this policy then if acceptance is guaranteed? Wouldn't it be simpler to say "Hostile factions can't harvest in our lands."
Given that Brighthaven was founded on the principle of being a safe haven for all but your enemies to come and find a place to play in peace under the protection of TEO what's the point of telling everyone they need prior permission?
We haven't denied permission so far. When we need to deny permission, the need to request it will not be new.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A little clarification from PFU's standpoint. We have been very lucky to have the support of the vast majority of the server. When we needed help with Ogg we had a great response which even included a joint effort from EBA, Golgotha, EL and others.
We do not 'direct' students to any company. Students tend to pick the group who impressed them most. That includes who teaches classes, hangs out in our mumble, support our events, etc. There definitely is a component of the larger groups getting more as they participate more. The three most active groups with us are the Aeonian League, EBA EL, and Golgotha.
We consider anyone harvesting resources, attacking escalations, or establishing holdings to be hostile, unless given prior permission from EBA leadership.
This just seems like a very interesting way to tell people that all but your foes are welcome in your borders.
You don't think something along the lines of "We reserve the right to tell anyone harvesting resources and attacking escalations to cease and desist on a case by case basis" might have better conveyed the idea you are now backtracking to and trying to convince us is what you meant from the start?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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We consider anyone harvesting resources, attacking escalations, or establishing holdings to be hostile, unless given prior permission from EBA leadership.This just seems like a very interesting way to tell people that all but your foes are welcome in your borders.
You don't think something along the lines of "We reserve the right to tell anyone harvesting resources and attacking escalations to cease and desist on a case by case basis" might have better conveyed the idea you are now backtracking to and trying to convince us is what you meant from the start?
The idea that we are 'backtracking' to is that coming in without permission is prohibited, but that permission is not onerous to obtain. Which is much less a change than saying that prior permission is optional.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Caldeathe, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but it's not helpful.I guess it depends who you think I was trying to help. If I were Bluddwolf, I wouldn't want someone else's vendetta sticking to me.
I'm still not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but I notice that Bluddwolf favorited your post.
Your original comment sounded to me like you were crediting Andius with The Seventh Veil's will to fight. Re-reading it now, I see that you were probably saying that most of the denigration came from Andius.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You have reached the correct conclusion. I was trying to indicate (in response to Bringslite) that while Bluddwolf has plenty of his own abrasion, the bulk of the nasty stuff targeting Brighthaven and her allies did not come from him. I will exit your thread, now, with apologies that this took up so much space.
The idea that we are 'backtracking' to is that coming in without permission is prohibited, but that permission is not onerous to obtain. Which is much less a change than saying that prior permission is optional.We consider anyone harvesting resources, attacking escalations, or establishing holdings to be hostile, unless given prior permission from EBA leadership.This just seems like a very interesting way to tell people that all but your foes are welcome in your borders.
You don't think something along the lines of "We reserve the right to tell anyone harvesting resources and attacking escalations to cease and desist on a case by case basis" might have better conveyed the idea you are now backtracking to and trying to convince us is what you meant from the start?
Ah so you are retaining that part. Is it your belief that all, or even the majority of players that will come into your territory to adventure and gather read the forums enough to be aware of these borders that exist only as lines on the forums and rules only laid out on the forums?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the absence of territorial control mechanics, where the traveler will be aware of who's territory he or she has entered, the policy of requiring permission is tantamount to NBSI.
There is nothing wrong with that policy, but you can't hold onto the notion or make the public claim that you're not NBSI. You are still threatening to kill players that don't acknowledge that you control land that you actually have no claim to, beyond the brute force yiu will throw at them.
That is perfectly fine for a Lawful Evil empire, but it is not Neutral Good, if you actually care about role playing alignment to begin with.
Summary: NBSI, but you claim not to be. You claim to be NG, but you don't behave that way = Deceptive or you have blurry vision of yourselves.
Edit: I will now take my leave of this thread, please do not drag me back in with mentions of Aragon, Aragonian Council, UNC or any individual member of listed associations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Aragon
So they tell the offending player to come read the forums after warning them? UNC
Aragonian Council
Individual members of listed associations.
*cough*Edit: I will now take my leave of this thread, please do not drag me back in with mentions of Aragon, Aragonian Council, UNC or any individual member of listed associations.
It's going to take more than that... Doh!
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Ah so you are retaining that part. Is it your belief that all, or even the majority of players that will come into your territory to adventure and gather read the forums enough to be aware of these borders that exist only as lines on the forums and rules only laid out on the forums?The idea that we are 'backtracking' to is that coming in without permission is prohibited, but that permission is not onerous to obtain. Which is much less a change than saying that prior permission is optional.We consider anyone harvesting resources, attacking escalations, or establishing holdings to be hostile, unless given prior permission from EBA leadership.This just seems like a very interesting way to tell people that all but your foes are welcome in your borders.
You don't think something along the lines of "We reserve the right to tell anyone harvesting resources and attacking escalations to cease and desist on a case by case basis" might have better conveyed the idea you are now backtracking to and trying to convince us is what you meant from the start?
Ignorance of the rules is not exoneration, but it is a reason. We would be providing no useful information to anyone honest by announcing how we handled players who were ignorant of the rules.
On the contrary, that information is extremely important to any truly good organizations in determining whether your alliance has fallen to evil or not.
As (Name withheld but it happens to start with a mispelling of blood and end with a kind of canine pack hunter) said, a policy where you have rules written down on the forum and will punish people for not knowing them is tantamount to a NBSI policy. Not only is it NBSI but the territory you own isn't clear unless you have read the forums as well. This is not territory you've established your control over with holdings.
In any game the population intimately aware of everything happening on the forums is by far the minority. So "ignorance of the rules is not exoneration" sounds like a straight up evil policy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the contrary, that information is extremely important to any truly good organizations in determining whether your alliance has fallen to evil or not.
As (Name withheld but it happens to start with a mispelling of blood and end with a kind of canine pack hunter) said, a policy where you have rules written down on the forum and will punish people for not knowing them is tantamount to a NBSI policy. Not only is it NBSI but the territory you own isn't clear unless you have read the forums as well. This is not territory you've established your control over with holdings.
In any game the population intimately aware of everything happening on the forums is by far the minority. So "ignorance of the rules is not exoneration" sounds like a straight up evil policy.
So, point me out to a single country in the world where ignorance of the rules does exonerate someone from the consequences?
If you kill someone and didn't know it was against the rules, should you walk free? If you Steal something and didn't know it was against the rules should everyone just say, oh, ok you can keep it then?
We aren't talking wholesale slaughter of anyone we don't recognize as being authorized in our declared territory either. (That is certain other groups.) Anytime we attack first it is only for Known Enemies, and most of them know who they are already. Anyone else is likely to be stopped and questioned. Who knows, they might just get permission to continue what they are doing if they are friendly about it.
Games aren't the real world. People don't just go wandering across national borders without having some idea of where they are in the real world. In games they do.
Most sandboxes help you out with that by giving you ways to establish sovereignty and telling players when they cross into the territory of a nation. Usually tied to holdings.
In this instance the EA has simply drawn a line on a map and said "This is our and you must follow these rules while you are here."
You cannot reasonably expect for people to be aware of that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well established and visible national boarders aren't exactly old in relation to the history of claimed territory.
Oh, and you are talking about "Most Sandboxes" well, how many Sandbox MMO's still in early pre-open release have you played with those features already in place?
Oh, and in SWG, it didn't exist, nor did it exist in Ultima Online. Hmm, actually, even EVE, the only one I can think of that lets you officialy establish Sovereignty, it isn't always easy to figure out until you're already there.
Where is this "Most" again?
EVE absolutely does tell you who holds sovereignty over a specific system if it's actually owned, Unholy Wars tells you when you cross into territory controlled by a holding, and Wurm tells you when you cross into a deeded area.
SWG doesn't exist anymore incase you missed the memo and UO is a dinosaur.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In case you missed your math, that is two I've never heard of "for" you, and two obviously you at least have heard of besides me in my favor, and one we disagree on. That doesn't constitute most.
And again, how many of them had it at the very beginning before there official open release?
On a completely different point, at this stage in the game development, everyone "should" be paying attention to the message boards. This stage is mostly about crowd forging and how can you hope to help crowd forge the game if you aren't paying attention to what is going on.
On, and on a final note. If Ultima Online where still running, I'd still be playing it. (Actually if I wanted I could get on some fan created servers.) It is the #1 BEST Sandbox MMO ever released and GW would do well learning from it's history.