Simultaneous Timing Effect Avoidance?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


If two things would happen simultaneously can you choose to do one such that you cannot do the other? For example if you're at the Torture Pit and you have Jalazar's Wheel you're subject to two end-of-turn effects: make a Con/Fort check and you can move. If you move first, you're no longer being told to make the check (since you're not at the Torture Pit). Can you avoid unwanted effects this way, or are you still subject to them once triggered?


The way I see it, the golden rule giving priority order between adventure, scenarios, locations... is there to rule in the case of conflicting results (like if one says you should use that skill and the other says you should use another), not to rule about the order of taking effect if there is no direct conflict. So indeed in your case you can decide in which order you resolve.

The point is that there is no direct conflict between moving and making a check if you stay.

There would be however if Torture Pit would say "You cannot move unless you make that check". In which case IMHO the golden rule that if 2 cards directly conflict (you can or cannot move) you have to comply with the one saying you cannot do something would trumps the fact that you can select the order, and then you would be required to make the check.

Hawk? Mike? am I right?


Frencois wrote:

The way I see it, the golden rule giving priority order between adventure, scenarios, locations... is there to rule in the case of conflicting results (like if one says you should use that skill and the other says you should use another), not to rule about the order of taking effect if there is no direct conflict. So indeed in your case you can decide in which order you resolve.

The point is that there is no direct conflict between moving and making a check if you stay.

There would be however if Torture Pit would say "You cannot move unless you make that check". In which case IMHO the golden rule that if 2 cards directly conflict (you can or cannot move) you have to comply with the one saying you cannot do something would trumps the fact that you can select the order, and then you would be required to make the check.

Hawk? Mike? am I right?

I'm not Hawk or Mike but that sounds right to me.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

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I believe that these two cards are not in conflict, and thus Jalhazar's Wheel can save you from the Torture Pit's effect.

On a technical level, there's no "stack" in Pathfinder like there is in Magic. We don't say the effect has been triggered and then start processing a second effect; you process the first effect completely, and then switch to the second, if it can still happen. Your character card doesn't even know the Torture Pit effect is coming when you play Jalhazar's Wheel. So you move away, and then you never read the text that was on Torture Pit, because you're not there.

Vic can chime in if he thinks I've got any of that wrong, though.


Yeah, you have the choice of what order to apply end-of-the-turn effects. If you apply one that lets you move first, then you are no longer at that location at the end of your turn.

There was an issued in RotR with the Shadow Clock that is similar to what you are asking here. I think (but I'm going off memory here) that Torture Pit actually has some very unique wording, along the lines of "If you end your turn here..." That makes it sort of a unique end-of-the-turn-effect and, to me anyway, signals that is should pretty much be the last end-of-the-turn effect you would apply and only if you literally end your turn there.

But to answer your question in general, yeah, you determine the order. My wife used Amiri to abuse the Mountain Peak's power when it was closed in RotR. I've used Jalazar's Wheel to avoid end-of-the-turn-effects in S&S. So what you did sounds totally legit.

If you were at the Treacherous Cave somehow and wanted to play Jalazar's Wheel, you'd have to first make the check and then if successful play the wheel. (I'm actually unsure whether you should recharge the wheel, then make the check, and risk the wheel being a dud, or if you make the check because you want to play the wheel, but the second one makes more sense to me.)

EDIT: And I took too long typing and Mike beat me too it. But even if he didn't his answer is way better than mine anyway.


Thanks, guys.

BTW, Treacherous Cave and Jalhazar's Wheel? Sounds like a RotR and S&S crossover! If you take your characters into RotR, though, you won't have a ship and couldn't use the Wheel, I expect.


Malcolm_Reynolds wrote:

Thanks, guys.

BTW, Treacherous Cave and Jalhazar's Wheel? Sounds like a RotR and S&S crossover! If you take your characters into RotR, though, you won't have a ship and couldn't use the Wheel, I expect.

Yeah. I just know the effects of the RotR locations much better.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Huh. Forgot about that Shadow Clock thing. OK, we'll look under the hood on this one.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
... I think (but I'm going off memory here) that Torture Pit actually has some very unique wording, along the lines of "If you end your turn here..." That makes it sort of a unique end-of-the-turn-effect and, to me anyway, signals that is should pretty much be the last end-of-the-turn effect you would apply and only if you literally end your turn there...

You mean because it's worded thusly, as opposed to "at the end of your turn?"


Yeah. I think (though again not 100% here) pretty much every other location says "at the end of your turn".


From inbetween two other things I should be thinking about right now: Aren't there quite a few locations that say "When you start your turn here" and others that say "At the start of your turn..."? I think one of my friends asked me about that lately if there was a difference in that.


Personally, I'd say that if it said "If you start your turn here..." that is something that happens because at the moment your turn started you were there. While if it says "At the start of your turn..." it is something that happens more generally during the first step of the turn.

For example, imagine a Reverse-Amiri that had a power that say "At the start of your turn, you may move." And image a location named Fire Dungeon that said "At this location, if you start your turn here, you are dealt 1 Fire damage." And another location named Acid Dungeon that said ""At this location, at the start of your turn, you are dealt 1 Acid damage."

Scenario 1: Reverse-Amiri is at the Fire dungeon when the blessing is flipped. I'd say Reverse-Amiri takes the Fire damage before she can more.

Scenario 2: Reverse-Amiri is at the Acid Dungeon when the blessing is flipped. I'd say Reverse-Amiri can move before she takes the Acid damage. She can even move the Fire Dungeon and not take the Fire damage either because she didn't "start her turn there".

Just my opinion, but I think "If you start your turn here" or "If you end your turn here" sound much more like they care about the extreme start or the extreme end, not just simply happening during that step of the turn.


Other possible phrasings are "At this location: Before/After you resolve any at the start/end of your turn effects..."

"At this location: After you advance the blessing deck..." The latter one assuming that at this location effects effect only turns and actions characters perform at their location. I think that Mike said something different about Pinnacle Atoll somewhere.

EDIT: Oh well, I can already hear the question "Can I bypass that at this location effect if I do not have any at the start/end of my turn effects to resolve (by not using Amiri's power for example)?" So none of those wordings is very good.

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