Covert Operator wrote: Alternatively to the Slayer/Monk:
Cavalier of the Cockatrice 2 / Slayer (Bounty Hunter)
1 Enforcer
2b Dazzling Display
3 Hurtful
...take CMB feats past this, or slayer talents to Debuff
Human Cavalier of the Cockatrice 2 / Slayer (Bounty Hunter) 2 / Monk (Flowing) 1 / Cavalier 2 / Monk 1
Sickened (Redirection), Flat-Footed (Unbalancing Counter), Prone, Shaken (Enforcer), Blind (Dirty Trick), and one other Dirty Trick effect (Hurtful)
All of these debuffs are applied after 1 standard attack and 1 opportunity attack (triggered when they attack me)
1 Enforcer
1b (race) Agile Maneuvers
2b Dazzling Display
3 Hurtful
5 Antagonize
5b Improved Trip
5b Improved Unarmed Strike
7 Horse Master (Animal Companion scales with HD instead of Class level)
EDIT: feat progression; I realized I didn't qualify for Improved Reposition
BIG EDIT: I just realized Hurtful requires a Swift and Redirection requires an Immediate, so I guess this build doesn't quite work.
I would probably go for a socially skilled party with a ton of tricks. One of those tie-up cavaliers will be our front line. A heavens oracle for all those nice color sprays and to heal and remove conditions. An Undine Watersinger is our Hideous Laughter/Aqueous Orb/Dazing Aqueous Orb monkey while also being a beast at social encounters. Conjuration wizard rounds out the group with clouds and pits to control the battlefield and being a full prepared caster adds strength and versatility.
Other grapplers, slumber hexers, or control casters will work here, but I would go with the above if I were making it.
Heavens Oracle is pretty bad for this group, because its very limited in terms of other spells it can use. Specializing in Color Spray means no high-level feasibility (too many HD) and no affecting Constructs, Undead, Plants, Mindless.
I would rather make a Sorc/Orac Mystic Theurge for this, but the recent FAQ edit makes that pretty bad too.
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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote: Plants, Animals, Undead, and Constructs are going to be your biggest problems when enchanting.
Undead, Animal, construct all have sorcerer bloodlines. I don't know how to get more than 2 though.
Animals and plants are going to be far less of a problem I think. Depends on the setting, but you can only do so much to prepare with the no damage limitation. I recommend preparing teleports to get out of dodge when you have to in order to maintain your pacifist lifestyle.
With undead and Construct covered, I think you're as covered as you're going to be able to get with the enchanting angle.
Edit: for animals have some fear and/or trap spells ready. For oozes some walls. Hold monster and variants will also be useful.
Welllll hello there! You just happen to be talking about my area of expertise, what with my being a Cross Blooded Impossible/Serpentine Kitsune enchanter sorcerer! If you want to enchant as close to everything as possible, you want Impossible/Serpentine. You can't get those abilities in other ways. Undead is neat, but you can get it in the form of a feat, Threnodic Metamagic, which also comes in rod form; the rod/feat is actually more powerful than the bloodline because the bloodline only works on undead that used to be humanoid and the rod works on all undead. You can use the Coaxing Spell metamagic to get Vermin and Ooze category creatures (not sure there's a rod of that one).
That just leaves plants. My method for dealing with them mostly involves running away and letting the meat shields do the dirty work.
Ok, so we've got a rough outline of the party:
Melee debuffing Martial, who protects the rest of his party and reduces enemy saves.
Build: see last 10 or so posts for ideas on classes and feat progression.
Enchanting Sorcerer, who can use her enchant spells on basically any target.
Debuff Witch who is a pretty standard build; we can just pull any old build off the boards. The witch can do healing too, but that will be secondary. Should probably prepare at least one healing spell in the spell slot 1 below its highest, because this party literally needs all of its members up to function properly
Bad Touch Cleric This is the one we'll have trouble figuring out. It needs to be a good balance of healing (not just HP!) out of combat and incapacitation in combat, while being survivable enough to act as a bodyblock if the Martial goes down.
Confusion I say. Let them fight.
The best you can get with confusion is damaging themselves. This is only useful against weak 1HD thugs who might one-shot themselves with 1d8+str damage. Otherwise, I don't care about damage so Confusion is really just a spell that, for the duration, causes 75% chance of Daze and 25% chance of acting normally. Still pretty good, but overshadowed by the options designed for the kind of thing this party is doing.
Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote: That just leaves plants. My method for dealing with them mostly involves running away and letting the meat shields do the dirty work. Groveborn (Verdant) bloodline.
Do you think this is worth taking Eldritch Heritage for all three abilities? (and being a Half-Elf for that free Skill Focus)
EDIT: It looks like Eldritch Heritage grants the 1st-level Bloodline power, not the Bloodline Arcana. I guess you should just choose 2, based off of what your GM hints at what will be in the campaign.
Helpful Halfling Honourguard Cavalier(Order of the Staff) with a Camel Mount - Intercepts Attacks, Increases Party AC by +5, Decreases Enemies saves, Camel spits to make enmies sickened
Antipaladin - Intimidates and has Auras for further Crippling saves
Witch - Can reduce saves or save or suck
Void School Wizard - Can also reduce saves or save or suck
Enemies will be taken out with AoE save or suck spells(won't make the saves anyway). With a full wizard spell list and the Withes Hexes you should be able to get spells against all kinds of immunities.
You could also make a sneaky party, that avoids all encounters by Stealth/Invisibility.
The fifth member can be an Intimidate-based Inquisitor!
That would be really useful once the other party members are covering what the party needs
EDIT: Another fifth member could be a Pack Lord Druid (the archetype that gets a bunch of low-level ACs) that does espionage, and each AC can use the Aid Another action on whatever needs to happen right now, or they could do UMD, or maybe try to participate in combat (one of 'em's oughtta roll a 20!)
Covert Operator wrote: The best you can get with confusion is damaging themselves. Uh, no. The best part of Confusion is
Confusion wrote: Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. Casting this on a pack of enemies usually ends up with enchanters sitting back for rounds per level watching a gang of enemies beating each other to death for their amusement.
OK coolio, but the whole point of the party is to not win through damage.
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Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote: Tiny Coffee Golem wrote: Plants, Animals, Undead, and Constructs are going to be your biggest problems when enchanting.
Undead, Animal, construct all have sorcerer bloodlines. I don't know how to get more than 2 though.
Animals and plants are going to be far less of a problem I think. Depends on the setting, but you can only do so much to prepare with the no damage limitation. I recommend preparing teleports to get out of dodge when you have to in order to maintain your pacifist lifestyle.
With undead and Construct covered, I think you're as covered as you're going to be able to get with the enchanting angle.
Edit: for animals have some fear and/or trap spells ready. For oozes some walls. Hold monster and variants will also be useful.
Welllll hello there! You just happen to be talking about my area of expertise, what with my being a Cross Blooded Impossible/Serpentine Kitsune enchanter sorcerer! If you want to enchant as close to everything as possible, you want Impossible/Serpentine. You can't get those abilities in other ways. Undead is neat, but you can get it in the form of a feat, Threnodic Metamagic, which also comes in rod form; the rod/feat is actually more powerful than the bloodline because the bloodline only works on undead that used to be humanoid and the rod works on all undead. You can use the Coaxing Spell metamagic to get Vermin and Ooze category creatures (not sure there's a rod of that one).
That just leaves plants. My method for dealing with them mostly involves running away and letting the meat shields do the dirty work. I'm totally playing this character.
Covert Operator wrote: Heavens Oracle is pretty bad for this group, because its very limited in terms of other spells it can use. Specializing in Color Spray means no high-level feasibility (too many HD) and no affecting Constructs, Undead, Plants, Mindless.
I would rather make a Sorc/Orac Mystic Theurge for this, but the recent FAQ edit makes that pretty bad too.
Have you looked into Rainbow Pattern? It will get them to do nothing or with another save follow the lightshow somewhere they shouldn't. Spells like Freedom of Movement getting spammed on the whole party doesn't hurt either. If you mean the very high levels I think the Summon Monster line will do the trick, there are tons of SLAs available and an oracle is a 9 level caster.
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Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
That just leaves plants. My method for dealing with them mostly involves running away and letting the meat shields do the dirty work.
I imagine this character screaming, "ARGH! I told you I'm not a vegetarian!", as she runs away, while the meat shields make comments about having to "mow the lawn".
Covert Operator wrote: Heavens Oracle is pretty bad for this group, because its very limited in terms of other spells it can use. Specializing in Color Spray means no high-level feasibility (too many HD) and no affecting Constructs, Undead, Plants, Mindless.
I would rather make a Sorc/Orac Mystic Theurge for this, but the recent FAQ edit makes that pretty bad too.
You don't seem to understand how Heavens Oracles work. The HD limit doesn't matter much when every target is considered to have 5 to 10 HD less than it actually does. Creature types can be an issue but there are ways around that.
I would go with:
Wayang Spirit Guide Heavens Oracle. Wayang lets him pillage the Wizard list for extra illusions. Spirit Guide lets him grab other arcane spells as required. Colour Spray spam will take out whole swathes of enemies. Invest in Threnodic spells so you can take out undead as well. As far as constructs, oozes and plants go they are all subject to figment illusions. Trap them behind silent/minor image early on to give people time to deal with, later on stick up permanent image walls and forget about them.
Razmirian Priest Sorcerer. Focus on battlefield control. Glitterdust, Aqueous Orb, Pits etc to separate out enemies and allow them to be dealt with piecemeal. Later on trap things behind walls of stone, charm them or turn them into turtles. Invest in feats like Persistent Spell. Pick up Command Undead for your own personal army, mindless undead get no save. Plunder the divine spell lists with your level 9 feature for anything the Oracle doesn't have covered.
Master Summoner. Flood the battlefield with warm bodies to keep the enemy off your group and murder things. At low levels small earth elementals are particularly good. Higher up pouncing celestial lions do great damage while the celestial ankylosaurus provides amazing area control. Drop the odd buff or battlefield control spell.
Slumber Witch. You are the groups skill monkey so you probably want to cover knowledge's, disable device and pretty much anything else you want. With 3 charisma based casters you can skip Student of Philosophy as you don't need to be the face.. Put almost everything to sleep. Things that are immune can be misfortuned so they are far more likely to fall to the rest of the groups control spells.
Gregory Connolly and Andreww: I do understand Heavens Oracles, its just that there are literally three spells that the ability applies to, and more importantly, many creature types are immune. Very much of a one-trick pony, which is the opposite of what a group such as this needs. This group needs every member contributing in all fights.
Yes Rainbow Pattern is extremely good, but it is also extremely bad when you come across the multitude of creatures you can't deal with at all. Also, all three of them allow Spell Resistance.
I like your Razmiran Priest idea. Looks useful! May I ask, why did you pick that archetype?
This could work, but being all squishes puts you in danger if you get ambushed (before the summons are up). I like how you've orchestrated it to have any caster who is weak against one creature type to have his back covered by another caster being good against it.
andreww wrote: Master Summoner: [...] pouncing celestial lions do great damage So what. This is a build challenge that makes a party who doesn't care about damage. They knockout other ways, such as spells.
So, anyone got any build ideas?
Doomed Hero wrote: I forgot how godawful the pathfinder garrote rules are.
Garrotes don't knock people out by suffocation. They knock them out by cutting off blood flow to the brain. It takes between five and ten seconds.
My house rule is "people being successfully garroted have a number of rounds equal to their Con modifier before they start needing to make Suffocation checks. For people with a +0 or lower Con modifier, that means they have to start making suffocation checks the same round the garrote takes effect."
Garrotes in Pathfinder aren't instakills for the exact same reason most enemies (or player characters) don't die to a single sword hit. Or dagger stab Or one magic missile.. Realism takes second place to establishing a desired game flow and rhythm... and giving players a decently good time.
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rewrite of post #51, with the problems fixed
any small race Monk (Flowing) 1 / Slayer (Bounty Hunter) 2 / Cavalier [Order of the Cockatrice] 4 / Monk 1 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 3
Sickened (Redirection), Flat-Footed (Unbalancing Counter), Prone (Trip), Shaken (Dazzling Display), a few chosen debuffs (Dirty Trick)
All of these debuffs are applied after 1 standard attack, 1 opportunity attack (triggered when they attack me), and one Dazzling Display (Standard action). You can do two Dirty Tricks if you full-attack. You also deal damage from your attack, whatever.
Receive Longarm buffs from your allies all the time, so you can protect them better.
Longarm Bracers are pretty awesome, and stack with the spell.
1b Improved Trip
1b Improved Unarmed Strike
1 Agile Maneuvers
3 Toughness
5b Dazzling Display
5 Kobold Style
7 Horse Master (Animal Companion scales with HD instead of Class level)
9b Combat Expertise
9 Improved Dirty Trick
10b Greater Dirty Trick
11
I just realized: the build in the post above does make normal attacks, in order to activate his Dirty Trick ability (gained at 3rd level). Switch the Toughness feat at lvl3 for Weapon Finesse.
I'm not very experienced in building Bad Touch clerics, can anyone give me some help with that?
I'm specifically looking at things that knock out enemies, or reduce saving throws.
In that vein, I'm thinking Magic (Arcane) and Law/Evil (Devil) domains.
Mathius wrote: I know I a build that can tie someone up using a standard, move and swift action. That works quite well. I just realized what you're talking about: a rogue build that uses unarmed damage with Sap Adept/Master and Pinning Knockout. Unfortunately that's at a -10 penalty until you get Rapid Grappler...
Use a Pathfinder's Pouch to auto-CDG helpless opponents (GM fiat-worthy, but hilarious)
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