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Since I'm wrapping up Rise of the Runelords, I decided to start planning my next campaign. Our group always has three separate campaigns running and I am one of the 3 GMs currently in the rotation. One feature common to all of our campaigns is that the plot is always railroaded upon the PCs.
So I think it's time for a sandbox campaign. I've tried this once before, albeit with minimal preparation and no GMing experience, (4-5 years ago) and failed utterly to create a compelling story. Someone else's sandbox campaign was career-ending. The group lost interest and forced him to retire it and he hasn't GM'd since. (Still plays, though)
So, if possible, I want to do it right. Here are steps I've taken to prevent disaster.
This worked out better than I anticipated:
The group is largely LG or CG.
The Witch and Druid are brother and sister.
The Synthesist is an acquaintance of the Bard.
The Synthesist was a noble of the starting city, Almas, before his parents were killed 15 years ago.
The parents of the Witch and Druid used to live in Almas 15 years ago.
The Swashbuckler is the child of one of the leaders of the evil organization that took control of Almas 15 years ago.
I can't tell you how much easier it makes my life that all of this happened.
I just hope I can convince the party to care enough about this foundling nation who's existence is constantly threatened by an evil organization. Between their sense of justice I think they'll stick around to defeat the organization and continue to stick around simply because they're invested. (Running a town has benefits) Otherwise, this sandbox will be more difficult to control, but I'll find a way with open communication with the players.
Speaking of which...
But the villains aren't done with them yet; Almas will consistently interfere and undermine this budding new kingdom. Beyond that, in my world there are fouler things than orc- er, the Black Organization in the deep places of the earth. Or many other places in the earth, really.
So my question to the Pathfinder community:
What cautions/advice would you give to someone starting a sandbox campaign?
Oh, two things I forgot to mention; Time and Downtime.
Time - There will be a calendar. Not sure if I'll go with 365 days or something simplified like 112 days partitioned into 4 months of 28 days. Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter.
Downtime – There will be opportunities for downtime; I’m torn on this, but I believe this will be best executed by the party agreeing on allocating a certain amount of time on the calendar and managing all the details via facebook messages between campaigns. Then I will choose to either pick up the campaign at the other end of the downtime OR as a flashback/interruption of the declared downtime.
Well, before I let this thread sink into the icy depths, I'd just like to say that I am unbelievably stoked about this campaign and the reaction of my players thus far. Sometimes when you get a "brilliant" idea in isolation, it doesn't always receive the warmest reception when shared. But my players are excited and I have several months before the first session even begins, so I'll do what I can to provide an engaging world and opportunities for great stories.
Hope you all are having great adventures with company you enjoy,
The Chort
Don't be afraid to peruse the Bestairy in the middle of a session. Some of the most epic moments I have had as a GM happened that way. It is part of the tradeoff you make when running a sandbox. The players want to go over there and you have no idea what is over there so you stall with random encounters. They can take hours, give loot, challenge the players, and spur the creativity of both the GM and the players.
Think of it as an improv challenge. The party just fought two hill giants. Why? Are there more about? Do they live around here? Does anybody speak giant?
Then next session you have had time to come up with answers. You not only know what is over there but how it relates to those hill giants. The pace of the game is one of the most important tools for a sandbox GM. Fights grind the game to a halt when you are out of creative juice. But they are a lot more fun than ending early so the GM can think.
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I suggest you reconsider.
Most Pathfinder campaigns take place in locations that are more in tune with the source material. Dungeons, Ruined Cities, Necropoli, Eivl Overlords Dungeons and so on.
And the PCs are heroes, or villains, larger than life.
A Sandbox does not seem an appropriate setting, although one populated by young giants or dragons could perhaps serve. And presumably the PCs will be infants, perhaps toddlers. Hardly persons who are going to change the world in the short term.
The only positive aspect to the idea is that we are all familiar with PCs who act like toddlers. But this is hardly enough to proceed.
I suggest you reconsider.
Most Pathfinder campaigns take place in locations that are more in tune with the source material. Dungeons, Ruined Cities, Necropoli, Eivl Overlords Dungeons and so on.
And the PCs are heroes, or villains, larger than life.
A Sandbox does not seem an appropriate setting, although one populated by young giants or dragons could perhaps serve. And presumably the PCs will be infants, perhaps toddlers. Hardly persons who are going to change the world in the short term.
The only positive aspect to the idea is that we are all familiar with PCs who act like toddlers. But this is hardly enough to proceed.
Ahahahaha. Hahahahaha. Oh. My. Goodness. It took me a while to even comprehend your post, but when I found out you took issue that the setting of my campaign was a literal sandbox, I lost it.
Hahahahaha, whew. Anyway, rest assured, I should have a good fantasy setting that I'll be building together with help from my players.
Don't be afraid to peruse the Bestairy in the middle of a session. Some of the most epic moments I have had as a GM happened that way. It is part of the tradeoff you make when running a sandbox. The players want to go over there and you have no idea what is over there so you stall with random encounters. They can take hours, give loot, challenge the players, and spur the creativity of both the GM and the players.
Think of it as an improv challenge. The party just fought two hill giants. Why? Are there more about? Do they live around here? Does anybody speak giant?
Then next session you have had time to come up with answers. You not only know what is over there but how it relates to those hill giants. The pace of the game is one of the most important tools for a sandbox GM. Fights grind the game to a halt when you are out of creative juice. But they are a lot more fun than ending early so the GM can think.
That is solid advice. I employed a similar tactic while running Rise of the Runelords. The players took a route I wasn't expecting into the dungeon and I moved some of the monsters they had missed into the dungeons. It bought me the time I needed to prepare an epic boss battle.
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I have come to this conclusion with my IRL group- Don't plan a damn thing, and yet, plan for everything.
make NPCs? sure, but be ready for them to be killed. (with consequences ready)The story takes them to ______ city? Don't expect to get there any time soon.
Know when to railroad- There are times that, even in IRL gaming where the players start to falter at what to do next, this is when you drop that plot hook character in that you have been hiding the entire time because anything he said would be heard then promptly ignored.
Throw true random encounters at your PCs, but be creative.
one time I had them ambushed by a group of cave trolls, (no one made a perception check of 20, 20! at level 7!) which ended in them getting captured. (note, not killed). They later awoke in cages, 2 to each, with all of their gear sitting in a corner. they managed to not only talk their way out of being dinner, but managed to gnab a few nifty magical items as well. They later returned to that area, whooped some giant but, and got the leader to serve them XD XD XD.
I have come to this conclusion with my IRL group- Don't plan a damn thing, and yet, plan for everything.
make NPCs? sure, but be ready for them to be killed. (with consequences ready)The story takes them to ______ city? Don't expect to get there any time soon.
Know when to railroad- There are times that, even in IRL gaming where the players start to falter at what to do next, this is when you drop that plot hook character in that you have been hiding the entire time because anything he said would be heard then promptly ignored.
Throw true random encounters at your PCs, but be creative.
one time I had them ambushed by a group of cave trolls, (no one made a perception check of 20, 20! at level 7!) which ended in them getting captured. (note, not killed). They later awoke in cages, 2 to each, with all of their gear sitting in a corner. they managed to not only talk their way out of being dinner, but managed to gnab a few nifty magical items as well. They later returned to that area, whooped some giant but, and got the leader to serve them XD XD XD.
That's a similar conclusion I've come to with Step 7: Prepare to Improvise. Players will rarely let situations play out like you intended. So just roll with it and hopefully you have engaging NPCs and other encounters in your back pocket to keep things fun and interesting. But sometimes it will come down to pure improvising and stealthy google searches mid-session.
And cool story on the cave trolls. Some of the most memorable moments in a campaign are rarely planned; they just turn out that way with good GM/player storytelling chemistry.
Sometimes it is better to give the illusion of choice then choice. If players haven't been somewhere before and you haven't told them anything about it, what direction they go doesn't matter. You had planned for that witch to be encountered on the eastern edge of the woods but they went the long way instead? The witch's house is now on the north-western edge with no one the wiser.
Also some times it is better to guess what stats an NPC will have than slow down the session to find them. The players will be non the wiser and you look brilliant for anticipating that they were going to attack this guy and stated him out.
Sometimes it is better to give the illusion of choice then choice. If players haven't been somewhere before and you haven't told them anything about it, what direction they go doesn't matter. You had planned for that witch to be encountered on the eastern edge of the woods but they went the long way instead? The witch's house is now on the north-western edge with no one the wiser.
Also some times it is better to guess what stats an NPC will have than slow down the session to find them. The players will be non the wiser and you look brilliant for anticipating that they were going to attack this guy and stated him out.
Several directions or plot hooks leading to the same destination/event is definitely an efficient way to GM when improvising. I do hope that they will have some freedom at some stages though. Whether they'll investigate the haunted bog or wizard's tower or kobold mountain. I will have a small map with some details, and some things set, but in other ways I can make up the map as I go.
I also constantly go by gut when PCs attack something I don't have stats for.
Does a 26 hit? Yes. Does a 21 hit? No. (Note to self... AC 22.) Then faithfully keep the monster's AC as 22 for the whole fight.
And then guess approx how much HP, how much damage they might deal, what sort of spells they could have...
It's something that took several years before I got comfortable with it and the players rarely catch on to it. Perhaps that's in the wrong order; once you realize that the players can't tell the difference between you improvising vs faithfully reading a stat block, that's when you get comfortable with improvising.
Sometimes it is better to give the illusion of choice then choice. If players haven't been somewhere before and you haven't told them anything about it, what direction they go doesn't matter. You had planned for that witch to be encountered on the eastern edge of the woods but they went the long way instead? The witch's house is now on the north-western edge with no one the wiser.
Also some times it is better to guess what stats an NPC will have than slow down the session to find them. The players will be non the wiser and you look brilliant for anticipating that they were going to attack this guy and stated him out.
Several directions or plot hooks leading to the same destination/event is definitely an efficient way to GM when improvising. I do hope that they will have some freedom at some stages though. Whether they'll investigate the haunted bog or wizard's tower or kobold mountain. I will have a small map with some details, and some things set, but in other ways I can make up the map as I go.
I also constantly go by gut when PCs attack something I don't have stats for.
** spoiler omitted **It's something that took several years before I got comfortable with it and the players rarely catch on to it. Perhaps that's in the wrong order; once you realize that the players can't tell the difference between you improvising vs faithfully reading a stat block, that's when you get comfortable with improvising.
This is why I said sometimes. I usually only use it with generic things like inns or taverns. Players ask how many there are and where in the city they are, but no matter which they end up at I know what is there.
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Hey Chort,
I am planing in a same way a sandbox campaign for much the similar reasons that you mentioned it. In last campaign, it was railroad mostly all the time and I myself wasn't exactly prepared or into the anything else at that moment. Unfortunately, I'v had little time recently to tackle more into it but here is some tips which I considered or found useful:
- I recommend having NPC Codex on hand and get familiar with it. With that book, you will have stated NPC ready on the spot and if a feat or something isn't quite right for you, just switch it temporarily. It's not the best for "boss encounters" and similar peaks of campaign, but when you need something fast, it's good to have it. Similar can be said for Pathfinder Beastiaries.
- Randomness is your friend. This is kind of weird and ridiculous advice, but to a degree, it makes sense. If you make an NPC, don't plan anything, just keep it ready on standby. Opportunity will present itself on it's own. If you make a quest, set the scene or NPC and primary goal, and don't plan anything. PC's will find a way on their own.
- A thought which gave a lot to think is - make good, friendly and helpful NPCs. World which only poses a threat to their life isn't a real or fantasy world. PCs should meet all manner of things and sometimes, NPCs might choose to join them. Don't be afraid to lead NPCs as temporary addition to their group. Perhaps even the quest resolves around protecting the NPC from all the threats. In short, NPCs aren't just a cannon fodder. Make them useful to PCs.
- Even a sandbox needs a story arc. Don't plan it completely though. Just add pieces of information here and there. They might seem unconnected at first, but when bigger picture unfolds, PCs might get a moment of insight and horror/happiness when they realize it. The story however needs to be all around them. This is hard to pull honestly. I personally planned to give PCs in my next campaign several super-powers which they develop over time but these super-powers are exactly why some specific organizations and other people are searching for them hence pulling entire story towards them.
- Make the fights unique and interesting. The terrain and fights should be interesting, but what I considered recently is additional part of fight which I tend to call the catch. Each fight that you make, has to have a catch in it (well not every fight). Example would be a villain threatening to kill NPC. Catch would be to rescue him unharmed. Another example would be a regular fight with several zombies but a catch would be that they are in a poisonous mist. I think that you get what I mean by this. There is so many conditions out there to make fights more interesting then mere fight and defeat tactic.
This is all that I can think of at the moment,
Adam
- I recommend having NPC Codex on hand and get familiar with it. With that book, you will have stated NPC ready on the spot and if a feat or something isn't quite right for you, just switch it temporarily. It's not the best for "boss encounters" and similar peaks of campaign, but when you need something fast, it's good to have it. Similar can be said for Pathfinder Beastiaries.
Thanks so much for the reminder; the NPC Codex is even on the PRD.
- A thought which gave a lot to think is - make good, friendly and helpful NPCs. World which only poses a threat to their life isn't a real or fantasy world. PCs should meet all manner of things and sometimes, NPCs might choose to join them. Don't be afraid to lead NPCs as temporary addition to their group. Perhaps even the quest resolves around protecting the NPC from all the threats. In short, NPCs aren't just a cannon fodder. Make them useful to PCs.
This wasn't exactly a goal when I first thought of making a sandbox campaign, but more and more does this statement ring true. NPCs have been useless/villians in disguise in our other campaigns, but I want to especially lean on NPCs in this campaign. And try to get them emotionally involved with them. And tragically kill a valiant NPC for the sake of the story. *sigh*
- Even a sandbox needs a story arc. Don't plan it completely though. Just add pieces of information here and there. They might seem unconnected at first, but when bigger picture unfolds, PCs might get a moment of insight and horror/happiness when they realize it. The story however needs to be all around them. This is hard to pull honestly. I personally planned to give PCs in my next campaign several super-powers which they develop over time but these super-powers are exactly why some specific organizations and other people are searching for them hence pulling entire story towards them.
I can't tell you how much I want to make this a reality. The slow reveal of the conspiracy against them. Or whatever. My story isn't even put together fully, so I hope I come up with something good, and execute it masterfully. One can dream!
- Make the fights unique and interesting. The terrain and fights should be interesting, but what I considered recently is additional part of fight which I tend to call the catch. Each fight that you make, has to have a catch in it (well not every fight). Example would be a villain threatening to kill NPC. Catch would be to rescue him unharmed. Another example would be a regular fight with several zombies but a catch would be that they are in a poisonous mist. I think that you get what I mean by this. There is so many conditions out there to make fights more interesting then mere fight and defeat tactic.
I'm digging "the catch" concept. There has been no "catch" in one campaign, a few in another and some in my last campaign, just because the AP provided them. It really is a smart idea to keep combat fresh.
Having some kind of "base" that the players operate out of can be good. Players will care more about what happens to that location as they feel like they know people. It will be more personal if Bayan the local priest has been missing for two days after going east to visit a nearby farm if the players had a meal in the tavern with him before leaving the village a week ago.
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Just gonna add additional comment on what Browman said,
There is some huge benefit as a GM in a sandbox campaign in having a "base of operations" for PCs. It essentially gives your PCs regular advantages, like sleeping quarters, dinner, familiar faces and among other things, it will keep them in this area at least for several levels until they become powerful enough to face the rest of the world. As a GM, this gives you an actual area for which you can plan quests and encounters rather then traveling around the globe which would stretch the limits of your imagination.
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Find out how into it your players are. Not just helping by making NPCs or whatever, but drawing maps, immersion, that kind of thing. I planned out a sandbox campaign, told my players and they were excited. Then we started playing and I got "deer in the headlights" from most. The reason is because they liked the idea of it, but they didn't want to be on the spot for moving the campaign along.
I guess my advice would be have an idea of where you want the campaign to go. One way to do a sandbox is the Western March type where you hand the PCs a hex map and say "go." I did that with mine since I was going to have a rotating mix of players but after the players got fixed and they wanted more plot, suddenly my campaign didn't make sense to anyone.
So the other way to do sandbox is the one I recommend to most folks. Its more like a shotgun start than a sandbox. Here's an example:
1. PCs are in a wilderness town; there's lots of independent farmsteads and tiny settlements out there, but this is the last bit of real "civilization" for miles.
2. The town is attacked by an adult red dragon (CR 14). The PCs aren't up to goting toe-to-toe with the wyrm, but it's attack has trapped folks in burning buildings. The first adventure is spent helping the town by rescuing people.
3. In the aftermath of the battle its learned that kobolds have infiltrated the town in service to the Red Queen. What's worse, the attack has set off a chain reaction in the wilds. Ancient sites boil with eldritch power, vicious monsters have come crawling up out of the earth and villains far and wide are answering the dragon's siren song.
So now the campaign has an identifiable point: stop the dragon, but there's no set way to get it done. The PCs don't have the power or intel to march up to Mount Blastfurnace and murder the Red Queen so they use the campaign to get the resources they need.
Last but certainly not least: random tables. Make TONS of them. Buy books full of them. Know what monsters are coming, what treasure they have, what the weather is, how fast the wind's blowing and what direction, etc. Always be ready and willing to just chuck everything to the side when the players get a wild hair about some detail you mentioned as fluff. "A murder of crows rises at your approach away to your left as ahead a cave comes into view..." you're totally geared for a cave dungeon and suddenly one guy's like "hey, what were those crows doing?" and bam, you've got wilderness exploration.
Be ready.
I would encourage you to either use the downtime rules (with capital) or use the kingdom-building rules, rather than both. They're both pretty paperwork-intensive, and they address two different things. I'm running a Kingmaker campaign right now (with mythic). We're already doing the Kingdom-building rules, and my players showed a distinct lack of enthusiasm for the downtime rules.
My take on this is to leave it open for players to use if they want to. If you are building a kingdom obviously the kingdom building rules are a must, but just offer the downtime rules if someone wants to take on a personal project. There are also ways for things to interact, for instance many of the kingdom buildings are listed in the downtime rules, so rather then having to start from scratch its possible for a player to be granted a building as part of his or her office, like a garrison for the general, or a noble villa for the ruler.
I found that the capital rules are someone appropriate, since for instance, a word from the kingdom's general ought to carry more weight then the character themselves might have the skills for. Capital spent on checks accrued from control of the city garrison might make alot of sense there.
Either way, I think kingdom building is a great way to handle a sandbox campaign. If gives the players a foundation to build on, and it gives the gm obvious hooks that arent particularly railroady. I found some of my groups best roleplaying happened in our kingmaker game, because it gave us something to work with that we all shared.
I would suggest if they do found a kingdom to have them spend a bit of time both in and out of character working out the social structure and the laws they are implementing. My group drafted a rather lengthy constitution, and aside from the rp fun of arguing it in the council meetings, it also gave us a foundation on which to interact with the npcs. We had a defined place in society with rules that were important to us (since we as players created them), and it made things far more interesting dealing with the various challenges of the story.
I would be very interested if you have some homemade random tables to share :)
Last but certainly not least: random tables. Make TONS of them. Buy books full of them. Know what monsters are coming, what treasure they...
Nothing on my computer unfortunately. I use a LOT Of notebooks. I also grabbed a couple setting books from Raging Swan. I'm also perpetually stuck between levels 1-6 so most of my stuff is in that range.
All of that being said I'll transcribe some stuff and put it up. If you're honestly interested PM me and I'd be happy to work on something specific.
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All of that being said I'll transcribe some stuff and put it up. If you're honestly interested PM me and I'd be happy to work on something specific.
Same here - mostly low level stuff.
I was also considering putting out a generic "How to make Incredible Random Encounter Tables" guide. If anyone is interested. Some points would be:
- Customization to specific environ/region
- Unique Encounters using random tables
- Encounters that tie heavily with existing "set piece" encounters
- Non combat random encounters (events, omens, finds)
- Some ideas behind die ranges, using same tables for day and night encounters with sliding results/probabilities, alternate table designs, etc.
- Non-random random encounters (pre-rolling then modifying encounters to make unique and memorable "on the road" encounters).
- Using random encounters to flesh out your game world
Those would be a few things.
Actually I would like to get a GMs corner thread set up where different GM topics and toolkits can be posted. If anyone is interested in that kinda thing.
Er- Sorry for the derail.
Having some kind of "base" that the players operate out of can be good. Players will care more about what happens to that location as they feel like they know people. It will be more personal if Bayan the local priest has been missing for two days after going east to visit a nearby farm if the players had a meal in the tavern with him before leaving the village a week ago.
Just gonna add additional comment on what Browman said,
There is some huge benefit as a GM in a sandbox campaign in having a "base of operations" for PCs. It essentially gives your PCs regular advantages, like sleeping quarters, dinner, familiar faces and among other things, it will keep them in this area at least for several levels until they become powerful enough to face the rest of the world. As a GM, this gives you an actual area for which you can plan quests and encounters rather then traveling around the globe which would stretch the limits of your imagination.
This is one of many reasons I chose to structure my campaign this way; a perfect place to get my players invested in the goings on of this world; a perfect place for events and potential plot hooks to resolve issues that affect their home.
And not just plot hooks for the random quests of the world, but things that tie the overarching narrative, the true plot that's will be hidden for quite some time.
Find out how into it your players are. Not just helping by making NPCs or whatever, but drawing maps, immersion, that kind of thing. I planned out a sandbox campaign, told my players and they were excited. Then we started playing and I got "deer in the headlights" from most. The reason is because they liked the idea of it, but they didn't want to be on the spot for moving the campaign along.
I guess my advice would be have an idea of where you want the campaign to go. One way to do a sandbox is the Western March type where you hand the PCs a hex map and say "go." I did that with mine since I was going to have a rotating mix of players but after the players got fixed and they wanted more plot, suddenly my campaign didn't make sense to anyone.
So the other way to do sandbox is the one I recommend to most folks. Its more like a shotgun start than a sandbox. Here's an example:
1. PCs are in a wilderness town; there's lots of independent farmsteads and tiny settlements out there, but this is the last bit of real "civilization" for miles.
2. The town is attacked by an adult red dragon (CR 14). The PCs aren't up to goting toe-to-toe with the wyrm, but it's attack has trapped folks in burning buildings. The first adventure is spent helping the town by rescuing people.
3. In the aftermath of the battle its learned that kobolds have infiltrated the town in service to the Red Queen. What's worse, the attack has set off a chain reaction in the wilds. Ancient sites boil with eldritch power, vicious monsters have come crawling up out of the earth and villains far and wide are answering the dragon's siren song.
So now the campaign has an identifiable point: stop the dragon, but there's no set way to get it done. The PCs don't have the power or intel to march up to Mount Blastfurnace and murder the Red Queen so they use the campaign to get the resources they need.
Last but certainly not least: random tables. Make TONS of them. Buy books full of them. Know what monsters are coming, what treasure they...
It seems like I'm going for option 2; they run into the organization which they initially don't have the power to defeat. (My campaign's first "Red Queen") The organization will be a constant threat to their very existence until they finally overcome them.
I might include some exploration as well, but I don't think the world is especially "uncharted." Some of the backstory of my players include locations far away from Almas. I'll give that some thought.
I would encourage you to either use the downtime rules (with capital) or use the kingdom-building rules, rather than both. They're both pretty paperwork-intensive, and they address two different things. I'm running a Kingmaker campaign right now (with mythic). We're already doing the Kingdom-building rules, and my players showed a distinct lack of enthusiasm for the downtime rules.My take on this is to leave it open for players to use if they want to. If you are building a kingdom obviously the kingdom building rules are a must, but just offer the downtime rules if someone wants to take on a personal project. There are also ways for things to interact, for instance many of the kingdom buildings are listed in the downtime rules, so rather then having to start from scratch its possible for a player to be granted a building as part of his or her office, like a garrison for the general, or a noble villa for the ruler.
I found that the capital rules are someone appropriate, since for instance, a word from the kingdom's general ought to carry more weight then the character themselves might have the skills for. Capital spent on checks accrued from control of the city garrison might make alot of sense there.
Either way, I think kingdom building is a great way to handle a sandbox campaign. If gives the players a foundation to build on, and it gives the gm obvious hooks that arent particularly railroady. I found some of my groups best roleplaying happened in our kingmaker game, because it gave us something to work with that we all shared.
I would suggest if they do found a kingdom to have them spend a bit of time both in and out of character working out the social structure and the laws they are implementing. My group drafted a rather lengthy constitution, and aside from the rp fun of arguing it in the council meetings, it also gave us a foundation on which to interact with the npcs. We had a defined place in society with rules that were important to us (since we as players created them), and it made things far more interesting dealing with the various challenges of the story.
pennywit, thanks for drawing attention to the differences between downtime and kingdom building, I was sort of fusing them together when they really are separate systems. Related systems, but different. However, I am still willing to try both.
Kolokotroni, good point; rule of fun! I'll try to find out what systems my players enjoy and go with those. (I am throwing a lot at them; Downtime, Kingdom Building, Mythic, Exploration, and potentially more; Magic Schools was even a possibility)
...and the thought of my players in council meetings, deliberating over the constitution of their new town... It just puts a smile on my face. I hope our kingdom building will be as much fun as yours sounds!