Paizo, please stop forcefully changing action types for ability "progressions"

[Uwotm8]

I find myself increasingly annoyed when I see abilities like this:

Doomsayer (Su) wrote:

As a standard action, you can utter a dire prophecy that strikes fear in your enemies and causes them to become shaken. To be affected, an enemy must be within 30 feet and able to hear you. This effect persists as long as the enemy is within 30 feet and you use a move action each round to continue your doomsaying. This ability cannot cause a creature to become frightened or panicked, even if the target was already shaken from another effect. This is a mind-affecting fear effect that relies on audible components. At 15th level, continuing your doomsaying each round is a swift action instead. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.

Annoying part bolded. Swift actions are pretty damn valuable especially for casters, which the oracle is in this case. As abilities level up, they're generally supposed to get better and not worse. This is worse because it denies you your swift, if you want to use it. Between magic items and feats, by level 15 you quite generally have something to do with your swifts. Paizo, for the love of god, give us options. That would make the ability better. There's always the 5-foot move to shimmy around the board if a character absolutely has to move.

Does anyone else feel the same?

[mplindustries]

While I guess it's not explicit, I've always assumed you could continue to use the previous action to sustain these things. So, for example, a 20th level Bard could start a performance as a standard, a move, or a swift action.

[Bandw2]

it says both "instead" and the rules don't allow you to use a swift action as any longer kind of action.

[CraziFuzzy]

It's also a common house rule to allow you to take a swift action as a standard action (some even allow swifts as moves, though i feel that is too powerful - many swift actions are more impactful than many move actions).

[thejeff]

Hmmm. I do think most of those sustain type abilities would work better if you could choose to do it as a swift or move, rather than be forced to use your move action.

OTOH, I wouldn't want it to be a general rule that you can use a move action for any swift action. 2 Quickened spells a round, if nothing else.

[CraziFuzzy]

thejeff wrote:

I wouldn't want it to be a general rule that you can use a move action for any swift action. 2 Quickened spells a round, if nothing else.

That is protected against by the rules for 'Cast a Quickened Spell'.

Cast a Quickened Spell wrote:

You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.

[Bandw2]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I wouldn't want it to be a general rule that you can use a move action for any swift action. 2 Quickened spells a round, if nothing else.

That is protected against by the rules for 'Cast a Quickened Spell'.

Cast a Quickened Spell wrote:

You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.

the part immediately after the bolded is what interests me.

[thejeff]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I wouldn't want it to be a general rule that you can use a move action for any swift action. 2 Quickened spells a round, if nothing else.

That is protected against by the rules for 'Cast a Quickened Spell'.

Cast a Quickened Spell wrote:

You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.

Fair enough. I actually went and reread the feat to be sure it wasn't explicitly barred, but that wasn't enough.

[shroudb]

swift action as a caster i assume you mean quicken spell or something?

changing the base ability from standard action to swift is a 100% improvement if that's your concern:

standard action activate doomsayer, quicken cast spell (at +4spell level)
as opposed to
swift action activate doomsayer, normal cast spell (at normal spell level)

there are only a handful of situations where you would want to use a standard to activate instead of a swift.

now, if this was a move action, changed to a swift, i could see where you are coming from (since if it was a move you could like activate and do 2 spells), but as a standard to swift? hell yeah that's an improvement

[thejeff]

shroudb wrote:

swift action as a caster i assume you mean quicken spell or something?

changing the base ability from standard action to swift is a 100% improvement if that's your concern:

standard action activate doomsayer, quicken cast spell (at +4spell level)
as opposed to
swift action activate doomsayer, normal cast spell (at normal spell level)

there are only a handful of situations where you would want to use a standard to activate instead of a swift.

now, if this was a move action, changed to a swift, i could see where you are coming from (since if it was a move you could like activate and do 2 spells), but as a standard to swift? hell yeah that's an improvement

It's only a standard to start, then "a move action each round to continue", changed to swift at 15th level.

[Gwen Smith]

For Maguses and Arcanists at least, you need your swift action to activate pool abilities.

Even though you can't normally spend a move action to do a swift action, I think that any ability that was a move action at a previous level should still be able to use a move action, as if you are simply using the ability at the lower level.

That's how I would rule it, anyway.

[Oly]

Gwen Smith wrote:

For Maguses and Arcanists at least, you need your swift action to activate pool abilities.

Even though you can't normally spend a move action to do a swift action, I think that any ability that was a move action at a previous level should still be able to use a move action, as if you are simply using the ability at the lower level.

That's how I would rule it, anyway.

I agree. I'd even be more general and say, any ability you have, you can use as if you were lower level if you desire. Maybe there's something that the rule couldn't apply to, but I doubt it and if so, it's a rare exception.

[kestral287]

From "ability requires move action" to "ability requires swift action" = horrible

From "ability requires move action" to "ability requires swift or move action" = awesome.

That's a huge difference, in that level 15 (here) is forcibly shifting your tactics and not necessarily for the better.

That said, I do have to say that I really don't like the idea of being able to use swift actions as standard actions, let alone move actions. They can do way too much and are used as a balance point for many classes. This is doubly true for Mythic games.

[Oceanshieldwolf]

kestral287 wrote:

From "ability requires move action" to "ability requires swift action" = horrible

From "ability requires move action" to "ability requires swift or move action" = awesome.

That's a huge difference, in that level 15 (here) is forcibly shifting your tactics and not necessarily for the better...

I agree totally.

Perhaps

At 15th level you may continue your doomsaying each round as either a swift action OR a standard action" or something similar that still allows you to run as you have been, but opens up a new action economy option...

[Chemlak]

Other wording that's suitable includes "may use as a swift action" and "can use a swift action instead of a move action".

Long and short, unless there is a pressing design need to make it "must use", then character choice should be involved.

Count me amongst those who would offer the choice anyway.

[Melkiador]

It'd be nice if we could get a FAQ stating that a standard or move action that progresses to a swift action can still be used as a standard or move action.

[CraziFuzzy]

Bandw2 wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I wouldn't want it to be a general rule that you can use a move action for any swift action. 2 Quickened spells a round, if nothing else.

That is protected against by the rules for 'Cast a Quickened Spell'.

Cast a Quickened Spell wrote:

You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.

the part immediately after the bolded is what interests me.

The part after is what allows a standard action or full rounds spell to also go off in the same round. That's normal. You can always cast a quickened spell and a normal spell in the same round - being able to take more than one swift action, via a demoted move action, doesn't change that.

[Uwotm8]

Melkiador wrote:

It'd be nice if we could get a FAQ stating that a standard or move action that progresses to a swift action can still be used as a standard or move action.

I would love that universal option. FAQ'd

[Gwen Smith]

Melkiador wrote:

It'd be nice if we could get a FAQ stating that a standard or move action that progresses to a swift action can still be used as a standard or move action.

I think it needs to be phrased as a question:

FAQ proposal wrote:

If an ability changes the action type as the character levels up, can the character use the action type from a previous level to activate that ability?

For example, an Oracle with the Doomsayer revelation originally maintains the ability as a move action, and it changes to a swift action at 15th level. Can a 15th level Oracle choose to maintain the Doomsayer ability as move action?

(I'm often tempted to add an "if not, why not?" clause, but those rarely get addressed, and they can come off as confrontational. Usually, though, I'm just trying to understand the reasoning to make the rule easier to figure out in the future.)

[The Shining Fool]

Gwen Smith wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

It'd be nice if we could get a FAQ stating that a standard or move action that progresses to a swift action can still be used as a standard or move action.

I think it needs to be phrased as a question:

FAQ proposal wrote:

If an ability changes the action type as the character levels up, can the character use the action type from a previous level to activate that ability?

For example, an Oracle with the Doomsayer revelation originally maintains the ability as a move action, and it changes to a swift action at 15th level. Can a 15th level Oracle choose to maintain the Doomsayer ability as move action?

(I'm often tempted to add an "if not, why not?" clause, but those rarely get addressed, and they can come off as confrontational. Usually, though, I'm just trying to understand the reasoning to make the rule easier to figure out in the future.)

I house-rule it to allow the choice, but I think this FAQ would be helpful.

[Kudaku]

This isn't limited to action types - there are several examples of class features that can actually penalize the character. I'm currently playing an Empiricist Investigator who specializes in Archery. The second level class feature, Ceaseless Observation, reads as follows:

Quote:

At 2nd level, an empiricist uses his Intelligence modifier instead of the skill's typical ability for all Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device checks. He can also use his Intelligence modifier instead of Charisma on any Diplomacy checks made to gather information.

Note that the second section is voluntary (he can use) while the first section (an empiricist uses) is enforced.

Since in theory I'm forced to use my intelligence modifier (+3) instead of my dexterity modifier (+8) I'm stuck with a -5 penalty on Disable Device checks. Luckily my GM is an understanding fellow and house-ruled the phrasing of the ability to be optional rather than enforced.

[Green Smashomancer]

It strikes me as odd that people are now complaining about casters having too few options at high levels all of a sudden.

Kudaku wrote:

This isn't limited to action types - there are several examples of class features that can actually penalize the character. I'm currently playing an Empiricist Investigator who specializes in Archery. The second level class feature, Ceaseless Observation, reads as follows:

Quote:
At 2nd level, an empiricist uses his Intelligence modifier instead of the skill's typical ability for all Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device checks. He can also use his Intelligence modifier instead of Charisma on any Diplomacy checks made to gather information.
Note that the second section is voluntary (he can use) while the first section (an empiricist uses) is enforced.

Since in theory I'm forced to use my intelligence modifier (+3) instead of my dexterity modifier (+8) I'm stuck with a -5 penalty on Disable Device checks. Luckily my GM is an understanding fellow and house-ruled the phrasing of the ability to be optional rather than enforced.

This however, is total bogus, and I'd rule the same as this GM.

[Uwotm8]

It's annoying. Playing up through the levels, you can get very used to a certain way your character does things. Then, in the ability's case in my OP, at level 15 your GM has every right to say 'no' if you try to use a move action to keep doing what you've been doing for the last 7 levels. I'd practically call a caster's swift actions equivalent in usefulness to a martial character's full attacks seeing as they're the only way to get multiple spell castings in the round compared to multiple attacks. If you really want to get the most out of a caster's round, you have to use them. Having abilities that change through the course of a character's career that actively denies them using those actions is a bad design decision.

[thejeff]

Green Smashomancer wrote:

It strikes me as odd that people are now complaining about casters having too few options at high levels all of a sudden.

Not so much that casters have too few options, but that some options are removed by going up a level. Usually that doesn't happen.

What do people think would break if any swift action could also be done as a move?
Maybe with a caveat that, like with Quickened spells, you couldn't do two of the same thing in the same round. Possibly including two "pool" abilities.

[Uwotm8]

I'm perfectly find restraining it to abilities that change action types rather than a blanket move-as-swift deal. That seems weird and introduces ability scaling which would be new to the system.

[thejeff]

Uwotm8 wrote:

I'm perfectly find restraining it to abilities that change action types rather than a blanket move-as-swift deal. That seems weird and introduces ability scaling which would be new to the system.

Yeah, that is more egregious. I'm just curious what people actually find so problematic about allowing it generally.

[ryric]

thejeff wrote:

What do people think would break if any swift action could also be done as a move?

Maybe with a caveat that, like with Quickened spells, you couldn't do two of the same thing in the same round. Possibly including two "pool" abilities.

That's a very broad question which is why I think people shy away from it - at this point there are so many swift actions, all of which were designed with the explicit rule that swifts are limited to one per round. In order to weigh a rules change like you propose, you'd have to compare pairs of every swift action written to see if broken combos come up anywhere. When classes like inquisitor have many things you can do with your swift action I believe that the class's balance is built around only being able to do one of those things each round.

Personally I agree that you should always be allowed to use the lower level versions of your class abilities. That solves the OP's problem neatly without introducing multi-swift craziness.

[wraithstrike]

I think the RAI still allows a choice, but I do think an FAQ is in order. I would word it as "when an ability allows you to use an action that takes less time can you still take more time to do so?"