Suffer not the witch to live. Amen.
How do I optimize this to be effective (not necessarily outstanding) in a variety of combat and social situations?
Requirements: Human race, level 5 build, two-weapon fighting(Not sure on this. BaB is kind of low with this build, but it would be absolutely cool if I could make it work), 20 point buy.
I'd like to completely avoid vivisectionist and all the mutagenic 40 str cheese, if possible, please.
Why knife master? Just be a normal sanctified slayer.
Or be a witch hunter inquisitor.
Or just be a Slayer, they have higher bab and get free feats for TWF so you don't need dex as high for the feats and they have a boost to their hit to make up for TWF
Why Knife Master? The damage you gain is negligible. You are better off with full Inquisitor spell progression.
That's character-concept specific. Sanctified Slayer doesn't give me a sneak attack die until level 4, while knife master gives me a 1d8 die at level 1 assuming I'm using daggers or other such weapons, which I will be.
A second level gives me more reflex saves and Evasion, which seems thematically pretty cool to me, and opens a rogue talent at level 2 as opposed to the super late slayer talents you get from Sanctified Slayer, giving me more of an edge with the playstyle I've chosen.
Witch Hunter isn't what I'm going for. I'm going for what Altair would have been if he was with the Templars, instead of against them sort of deal.
P.S. I'm sad no one got the reference in the first post.
I still say going slayer is the better option for this mechanically.
But perhaps you explain more what type of character you're looking for. Right now it's not clear what type of character you're wanting. SO it makes it really hard to offer advice.
That's character-concept specific. Sanctified Slayer doesn't give me a sneak attack die until level 4, while knife master gives me a 1d8 die at level 1 assuming I'm using daggers or other such weapons, which I will be.
A second level gives me more reflex saves and Evasion, which seems thematically pretty cool to me, and opens a rogue talent at level 2 as opposed to the super late slayer talents you get from Sanctified Slayer, giving me more of an edge with the playstyle I've chosen.
Witch Hunter isn't what I'm going for. I'm going for what Altair would have been if he was with the Templars, instead of against them sort of deal.
P.S. I'm sad no one got the reference in the first post.
If your concept is to be a Badass killer and sneek dude that Hunt witches i think you are better served staying inquisitor all the way. The rogue May look like he is giving somthing on the first levels but you will soon feel that you are behind on the important stuff. What rogue talent id worth loosing 2 levels of Spell progression for?
If figthing is the most important part of the character pehaps go full slayer instead?
Don't dip for sneak attack die(unless its for prestige entry requirements or something), that way lies madness. I'm not sure theme even makes sense regarding extra damage either because most classes grant extra damage.
The long and the short of it is, basically, that a rogue dip is almost always a bad call and some of the classes up thread already have ways to access those same features.
Edit: I just realized the best way to express why this isn't a good idea. You are proposing that one sneak attack die and one rogue talent is worth multiclassing two 3/4 bab classes which reduces both your chance to hit and your caster level. That's pretty much the definition of a bad trade.
Fair enough.
1. Get the Magical Knack (Inquisitor) trait not to miss on caster levels due to the 2 level dip.
2. Use your first Rogue Talent on something like Weapon Training, you are going to need a ton of attack bonuses. Desperate Battler helps, Anticipate Dodge does too, if you have the prereqs.
3. Take care of your Fort saves. Great Fortitude and Twist Away are friends.
@Chess
To be more specific, this is kind of like a Gray Warden-like character, supposedly. But hopefully with more rogue things in there.
@Cap
If the focus was either of those things, then that's precisely what I'd do. But it's more of a combination. I'm trying to try and get more sneak attack dice to poke enemies with while retaining enough spellcasting to do some thematic "holy" stuff along with invisibility later on.
@Trogdar
Yes, they do, but those classes don't actually grant 1d8 (The thing is, Sanctified Slayer gives you really damn slow sneak attack progression, and I'm trying to spice it up a little more.) dice. Slayer will help me with BaB a little bit, but it will also require an extra level of dipping into it, while I can easily just keep the Knife Master dip at 1 level until I can afford a second. I'm just trying to make the Sanctified Slayer a little more... sneaky.
@Secret Wizard
Cool stuff! I'm starting to feel discouraged from two-weapon fighting. Might be a good thing.
TWFing is pretty tough. Rangers and Slayers are just about the best at it because of fighting style bonus feats, but it's still tough.
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The point I'm trying to move toward is that the damage die doesn't have anything to do with being sneaky, its just extra damage. If you want to make a thematically appropriate gray warden, make sure he can land his attacks, the damage will naturally follow.
Nothing in the knife master makes you any more sneaky. And you didn't really clear up at all what you're trying to do with the character. What do you mean by "get more sneak attack dice to poke enemies with" and what do you mean by "enough spellcasting to do some thematic 'holy' stuff"?
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@Cap
If the focus was either of those things, then that's precisely what I'd do. But it's more of a combination. I'm trying to try and get more sneak attack dice to poke enemies with while retaining enough spellcasting to do some thematic "holy" stuff along with invisibility later on.
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Problem is that you loose to hit to get somthing that may or May not be extra damage. That is a bad trade. I think you May be looking at the sneek attack thing and think it is good. It is not really that great.
I suggest you Pick divine favor as a Spell, fates favored and river rat as traits. Go inquisitor all the way and poke the bad guys with Holy stuff from the start.My slayer suggestion was to forget rogue and inq and just be a slayer all the way. Who need magic when you have God on your side, rigth?
and the Stygian Slayer and Deliverer slayers have either the divine theme or access to more magical abilities.
I think just the sneak attack from Rogue. Usually if it's in a class it's only for that class. And the other sneak attacks say add 1d6
I do have a quick question about this - would Knife Master change the sneak attack damage from other classes to d8? (Assuming you used knives.)
RAW i dont know, in my game i would let the player decide it is really not a big deal either way. IMOP.
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I think just the sneak attack from Rogue. Usually if it's in a class it's only for that class. And the other sneak attacks say add 1d6
I agree with you on how it usually works. However -
Sneak Stab (Ex)
A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s.This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.
Normally I'd just say that an ability with the same name from a different class is a different ability - so they don't mesh. But for sneak attack - they're EXACTLY the same ability.
Depending upon if it works - a 1 or 2 level dip in Knife Master for another class with significant sneak attack (Slayer / Snakebite Brawler etc) might be pretty decent. Especially the Brawler - since at level 5 in Bralwer he could use a punching dagger without the disadvantage of a low damage die.
Knife Master does increase Sneak Attack damage to d8 for all Sneak Attacks.
One problem with the TWF Inquisitor is the lack of a free-hand for casting spells. Two-handed Fighters can just drop a hand momentarily.
This all being said, Sanctified Slayer functions well, even without Knife Master dip or anything else. Your lower Sneak Attack dice lower the necessity of relying on boosting Sneak Attack damage. You'll have a lot coming from Precise Strike, Bane, misc spells, and Studied Target.
Edit: Sneak Attack being a d8 for Inquisitor Sneak Attack is my opinion. Not much supporting it RAW
How do I optimize this to be effective (not necessarily outstanding) in a variety of combat and social situations?Requirements: Human race, level 5 build, two-weapon fighting(Not sure on this. BaB is kind of low with this build, but it would be absolutely cool if I could make it work), 20 point buy.
To add to what the others have said,
Knifemaster is pretty pointless to multiclass into as you're already a 3/4ths BAB Spellcaster who needs his stuff. Furthermore, such a multiclass only gets you a marginal amount of damage early in which is far far overshadowed by the abilities a Sanctified Slayer already gets.
Between Favored Target, Bane, and the Delayed Sneak Attack dice, a Sanctified Slayer has very little want for damage when you remember it can also buff itself.
5th level we're looking at...
+2 Favored Target
+2+2d6 Bane
+1d6 Sneak Attack
+2 Divine Favor
That's about 16 additional damage on average.
Knife Master does increase Sneak Attack damage to d8 for all Sneak Attacks.If so - I may have to make my next character a Knife Master / Snakebite Striker Brawler. (I'm in no way saying it's top tier - but it could be interesting.)
It leans more heavily to a yes for Snakebite Striker as it says it functions as Rogue Sneak Attack, while Sanctified Slayer does not. I remember reading something supporting Vivisectionist with Knife Master, but I'd have to read the particular text again
Between Favored Target, Bane, and the Delayed Sneak Attack dice, a Sanctified Slayer has very little want for damage when you remember it can also buff itself.
5th level we're looking at...
+2 Favored Target
+2+2d6 Bane
+1d6 Sneak Attack
+2 Divine FavorThat's about 16 additional damage on average.
Ah but if you are investigator 4 and Knife master 1 then at lv 5 you have
+1 Favored Target
+2d8 Sneak Attack
+2 Divine Favor (I'm assuming you're including Fate's Favored trait. on yours)
that's 12 damage on average.
And while you're attack bonus is
+2 Favored Target
+2 Bane
+2 Divine Favor
bab 3
for 9+str the multiclass is
+1 Favored Target
+2 Divine Favor
bab 3
for 6+str.
With these numbers and the 2 skills points and some class skills for the multiclass, I can clearly see why someone would pick 1 over the other.
Yes, that's precisely how it works actually, which is the purpose of the dip.
From a 1-level dip, all sneak attack dice you ever role while attacking with a knife weapon is now a d8, which is why I went for it.
The brawler dip looks pretty damn good.
I think I get the point now, yes. The Knife Master dip was more a way to tie my character into using daggers above all else, but I suppose that could be neglected.
What if instead I take a monk dip and use light armor to take advantage of my wisdom to AC? I suppose the BaB lost might not be worth it, though.
If things get sour with hitting my enemies, Outflank, Dirty Trick or Improved Feint should actually help me and make it a pretty trivial task, especially because you really don't need to use power attack to make things work.
Perhaps I could change it up with a longsword and go for the Slashing Grace feat instead, to get Dex to damage along with to-hit.
I do have a quick question about this - would Knife Master change the sneak attack damage from other classes to d8? (Assuming you used knives.)
I have been playing my Slayer with 1 level in Knife Master this way and have not encountered any objections from the PFS DM's I play with. You can prolly expect table variance though.
Note: I started this character before I had access to ACG. If I had the ACG from the start, it's unlikely that I would have taken the Rogue level. He was going to be Ftr2/Rogue10 but it was obvious once I had the ACG that Slayer was superior to Rogue so he's Ftr2/Rogue1/Slayer2 instead. I will be taking Slayer levels from now on and may retrain the Rogue level in the future. The dip is not worth much in the grand scheme.
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I do have a quick question about this - would Knife Master change the sneak attack damage from other classes to d8? (Assuming you used knives.)I have been playing my Slayer with 1 level in Knife Master this way and have not encountered any objections from the PFS DM's I play with. You can prolly expect table variance though.
Note: I started this character before I had access to ACG. If I had the ACG from the start, it's unlikely that I would have taken the Rogue level. He was going to be Ftr2/Rogue10 but it was obvious once I had the ACG that Slayer was superior to Rogue so he's Ftr2/Rogue1/Slayer2 instead. I will be taking Slayer levels from now on and may retrain the Rogue level in the future. The dip is not worth much in the grand scheme.
If you only have 2 levels in Slayer - your only sneak attack thus far is from rogue anyway - isn't it?
Oh heh, that's a good point CLH--might explain the absence of conflict thus far. I will let you know what happens once I have SA from the Slayer levels. I intended that those would be d8's as well. Honestly though, I so rarely get into a position where I can SA (maybe twice since I took the Rogue level) that it's pretty much moot.
What if instead I take a monk dip and use light armor to take advantage of my wisdom to AC?You don't get wisdom to AC if you're wearing any armor including light.
You're absolutely right. I thought the Sohei might have allowed that effect with light armor.