Hello Everyone,
Intro:
First about myself (in relation to Pathfinder). I have been interested in DnD since AD&D 2nd edition but I have not been able to play other than PC games. Now that I am done with school I am starting to get some more free time and I would like to spend some of it with my family telling amazing stores (no, not the TV series).
Wow is Pathfinder a deep (and I mean DEEP) game. It can be a bit daunting. I guess I could just roll up core class toons and run with it but I can't quite get myself to do that. I have done a good bit of research and would like some of your thoughts on some issues I am having. I want them to shine, so there will be some crunch, but I am not going for the max of the max build for each character. They will get a few extra perks, but I figure their lack of strategy and tactics will even the playing field out a bit. =)
Story:
On a side note, we have ran though the Basic Box 5 or so times to get them (and me) familiar with many of the rules. Right now I will be running my 2nd grader, 3rd grader, and wife (2 toons) though Crypt of the Everflame, then Masks of the Living God, and then City of Golden Death for their first real foray into Pathfinder. They will only get to level 6, 7, or 8 and then retire. (The kids want to play a Druid and Summoner in Dragon's Demand next. I thought I would keep things simple for their first big adventure.) No multiclassing this time.
Relevant House Rules:
Wand of Many Mini Things
--1hp heal unlimited charges (keep action up, camping down)
--As they level the item will grow with little (mini) magic abilities
Smite House Rule
--Normal Smite/day + CHA bonus
--As we are only playing low levels, I want her to be able to use it more often
Channel Positive Energy*
-- Heals living while damaging undead always
Players:
Oracle (2nd grader)
--Battle, STR, Bardiche, Reach, Enlarge
Rogue (3rd grader)
--Brute, STR, TWF, Orc Double Axe, Bite
Pally (wife main)
--TWF, CHA, Scimitar/Spiked Shield, Smite/day (Normal + CHA)
Sorcerer (wife alt)
--Background buffing build (wow they are intimidating to build)
Character Needing Help (please)
Human Paladin
Role:
TWF Sword/Board that has many attacks to maximize the house ruled Smite ability. She has a high AC, good resists, and lay on hands. I am going to have to figure out handle her high AC from the monsters point of view. She enjoys Pathfinder so far but just wants to get right to it and play so I want to keep things simple(ish).
Build:
Straight Paladin
Abilities:
STR: 14 +2
DEX: 16 +3
CON: 10 0
INT: 10 0
WIS: 10 0
CHA: 18 +4
Traits:
Magical Knack
Reactionary
Attribute Plan:
4: DEX
8: CHA (or STR)
Feet Plan:
1: Two Weapon Fighting / Improved Shield Bash
2: -na-
3: Combat Reflexes
4: -na-
5: Step Up
6: -na-
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8: -na-
Paladin Plan:
1: Aura of Good / Detect Evil / Smite Evil 1+CHA/day
2: Divine Grace / Lay on Hands
3: Aura of Courage / Divine Health / Mercy (Sickened)
4: Channel Positive Energy* / Smite Evil 2+CHA/day
5: Weapon Divine Bond
6: Mercy (Dazed)
7: Smite Evil 3+CHA/day
8: Aura of Resolve
Spells:
Buffing spells (no idea)
Gear:
Armour: Breastplate +6AC (-4 Armour Check)
Armour: Light Quickdraw Steel Shield +1AC (-2 Armour Check)
Weapon: Scimitar (if only attack) +3ATK 1d6+2DMG
Weapon: Spiked Shield (if only attack) +3ATK 1d4+2DMG
Weapon: Scimitar (TWF Primary) +1ATK 1d6+2DMG
Weapon: Spiked Shield (TWF Secondary) +1ATK 1d4+1DMG
HP: 10
AC: 20
Questions:
Q1: Any other good traits for this build?
Q2: I have no idea what spells would be good so she can buff herself (maybe others too?).
Thanks for any and all input!
Braxon
PS. If you see something against the rules and it is not called out as a house rule, please let me know.
I'd recommend you make her 2H focused rather than shield focused.
Give your kids a chance to see a battlemom, plus, I think the visceral feeling of 1-shotting an important NPC is something she might enjoy.
I'd lower her DEX a lot and up the STR for that plan.
Again, knobs and levers are important. Radiant Charge gives her more decisions to make.
Not sure if I'd recommend the Paladin so much, since you have so much healing.
I'd recommend you make her 2H focused rather than shield focused.
Give your kids a chance to see a battlemom, plus, I think the visceral feeling of 1-shotting an important NPC is something she might enjoy.
I'd lower her DEX a lot and up the STR for that plan.
I will agree 2H probably does more damage but that last few games she played the Barbarian and just utterly destroyed the poor little Goblins. She is taking a step back and going to let the kids dish out more of the damage while she doesn't die and keeps mobs focused on her (with her husband's help (the DM)). =)
Not sure if I'd recommend the Paladin so much, since you have so much healing.
The modules they are going to be playing have quite a few undead in them. Well, that is what I thought until lunch today but maybe I got these three modules confused with God's Mouth Heresy. /shrug The Oracle won't really be doing any healing during combat (if possible). They will try to keep most of the healing in between fights. I found this Strain-Injury House Rule I liked to keep the battle moving. A friend of mine said they just use unlimited charge 1hp wands between fights. It doesn't really have any effect during battles but keeps the healers from spending all their healing spells between fights but it is simpler than the previous method.
Braxton
think of a good aggro system then. Make something like diplomacy able to get a monster to focus her while intimidate makes the monster still fight her rather than move onto another character.
allow her to spend lay on hands uses for a boost on those rolls, add extra DC for taunting many enemies simultaneously. Make keeping aggro something she feels accomplished doing
I would recommend Lunge as a feat. It gives her the option to generate a little more battlefield control in the form of threatened area, at the cost of some AC, which will help you to occasionally hit her. If you're planning on going full-on shield-bash paladin and you don't have an issue with the Pathfinder Companion books or D20PFSRD, I recommend Shield Bearer. I like it because it's got some versatility in terms of offense and defensive choices, and it'd probably be better than Magical Knack given your intended ending level. It should be noted that these are my opinions, not necessarily the optimal build.
think of a good aggro system then. Make something like diplomacy able to get a monster to focus her while intimidate makes the monster still fight her rather than move onto another character.
allow her to spend lay on hands uses for a boost on those rolls, add extra DC for taunting many enemies simultaneously. Make keeping aggro something she feels accomplished doing
I like your idea of having an aggro system so she feels she is accomplished something. My fear would be for me, the DM, to metagame and make all the monsters attack in an unreal fashion. When my son gets an A+ I want it to be because he earned it. When they win a +2CR I want them to know _they_ did it.
I looked at Antagonize before but it is a bit expensive for a feet (when all they want to do is combat). Maybe I will do a bit of research on Pathfinder agro systems or maybe I will just give everyone (including some BBEGs) Antagonize as a free feet.
Great Ideas!
Thanks,
Braxon
I would recommend Lunge as a feat. It gives her the option to generate a little more battlefield control in the form of threatened area, at the cost of some AC, which will help you to occasionally hit her.
I like it! I will remove Step Up and replace it with Lunge.
If you're planning on going full-on shield-bash paladin and you don't have an issue with the Pathfinder Companion books or D20PFSRD, I recommend Shield Bearer. I like it because it's got some versatility in terms of offense and defensive choices, and it'd probably be better than Magical Knack given your intended ending level. It should be noted that these are my opinions, not necessarily the optimal build.
I must say, that sounds good too! I will remove Magical Knack and replace it with Shield Bearer.
Nice,
Braxon
If your wife's goal with her Paladin is more to protect the other characters than to directly defeat the enemy, it might be worth looking into a Sacred Shield Paladin with the Bodyguard feat. You won't have to worry about writing homebrew aggro mechanics because she'll be able to keep the team safe from any enemy that attacks them instead of her. If she does go for Bodyguard, consider Helpful, or another trait that boosts the effectiveness of Aid Another and possibly even Benevolent armour.
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Two-weapon fighting with a shield is a very feat intensive build. You have made it more attractive by allowing that huge amount of smites, but it is a challenge. I have two paladins in PFS, one an Oath of Vengeance wielding a greatsword, and one is a standard paladin with sword and shield, but not two-weapon fighting. Both handle combats very competently, and I do really like both high strength and charisma on my paladins.
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10 con is a baaaad idea for someone doing frontline work, lay hands or no.Lots of monsters like pally head trophies esp after you smite them. Some pally codes also state you have to be the first to go in, last to retreat.
Why not run something like this:
16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 14 cha
Use stat boosts to bump dex for twf. Combat reflexes is not so useful for her as she does not have the reach to make use of it.
self buff is generally divine favor. Later litany of righteousness for more smackie!
Ugh, I hate the concept of a taunting mechanic in table top RPGs. It is far from realistic. Don't get me wrong, I played my share of MMOs and it makes sense to a degree in those style of games. I guess I expect a bit more realism in NPC actions in my tabletops.
Anyway, with your house rules on channeling maybe consider sinking a couple of levels into Oracle and taking a Mystery that gets it. I know you already have an Oracle but there are a couple of strong options. There are also several Oracle Mysteries that allow you to take Cha to other stats including AC. With a Cha that high, it would be well worth it especially considering the low Con.
Also, I tend to not think that TWF with a shield is not all that feat intensive if you don't go past TWF. ITWF is not that great in comparison due to the higher miss chance of itterive attacks. GTWF is just a trap. For someone with a primary role of tank I would get just TWF and never get another TWF feat.
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I recommend:
str: 18, dex 15, con 13, int 10, wis 10, cha 14
level ups go into con then dex. Also allows her to use mithral full plate and fill out the dex to armor.
Feats of:
two weapon fighting/improved shield bash
power attack
Extra lay on hands (better than toughness for a paladin)
Lunge
Improved 2 weapon is a trap if only going to 8.
Power attack helps aggro issues by being a threat.
I recommend replacing the homebrew broken wand with a 50 charge cure light wounds. Make them do resource management. When it runs out either drop another wand or suggest they buy one with party funds.
If your wife's goal with her Paladin is more to protect the other characters than to directly defeat the enemy, it might be worth looking into a Sacred Shield Paladin with the Bodyguard feat. You won't have to worry about writing homebrew aggro mechanics because she'll be able to keep the team safe from any enemy that attacks them instead of her. If she does go for Bodyguard, consider Helpful, or another trait that boosts the effectiveness of Aid Another and possibly even Benevolent armour.
ZanThrax,
If you can believe it I looked at all 28 Paladin Archtypes (again, a shallow game Pathfinder is not). Sacred Shield looked good except that limiting the AC aura to only 10' seemed a bit small. Their flanking Rogue could be all over the place with an Enlarged Reach and Lunge Battle Oracle, as battle dictates, and may not be close to the Pally. The feats and traits look interesting however, I will talk to my wife and see which she would prefer.Thanks!
Braxon
Fair enough. If the potential wards make it impractical to stay next to them, then it does become much less useful.
The dexterity can come down a lot if she switches to a 2H build. If she insists on TWF, she should probably be willing to lower her Cha a bit for extra Str and/or Con.
I think she is interested in TWF. It seems the lower CON could be problematic, but I am not sure I could find points for both STR and CON. For her build she wants to make sure her DMG < kids DMG.
With the way she is statted right now, the attribute increases at lvl 4 and 8 are poorly planned. It would take two increases to give a +1 modifier to any particular stat. She should stick with one ability (probably Str, even with TWF)
I agree but she needs to hit DEX 17 at lvl 4 so she can qualify for ITWF at lvl 7. If she waited to lvl 8 she wouldn't have the problem but I don't think they will get quite that high before "this" story is done and they move on to new 1st lvl characters.
Good Stuff,
Braxon
Two-weapon fighting with a shield is a very feat intensive build. You have made it more attractive by allowing that huge amount of smites, but it is a challenge. I have two paladins in PFS, one an Oath of Vengeance wielding a greatsword, and one is a standard paladin with sword and shield, but not two-weapon fighting. Both handle combats very competently, and I do really like both high strength and charisma on my paladins.
Thank you DesolateHarmony. I may just take her CHA down a bit and bump up her CON while seeing what I can do with her STR. /ponder
Thanks,
Braxon
10 con is a baaaad idea for someone doing frontline work, lay hands or no.Lots of monsters like pally head trophies esp after you smite them. Some pally codes also state you have to be the first to go in, last to retreat.
Noted. I will try and find 2 points for CON.
Why not run something like this:
16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 14 chaUse stat boosts to bump dex for twf. Combat reflexes is not so useful for her as she does not have the reach to make use of it.
The reason why I am pushing for TWF is for the fun or fluff of it not necessarily the crunch. Hmm, stat boosts? Is that like a DEX magic item or something? I am not sure what you mean.
self buff is generally divine favor. Later litany of righteousness for more smackie!
Nice. I am not sure she will be able to use Litany of Righteousness as they will probably only get to level 6 or maybe 7 before switching characters. That is another reason I am OK making them a bit more powerful as the characters won't get high enough to see their full potential.
Thanks,
Braxon
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Combat reflexes is generally used by reach weapon uses to "fish" for aoos. Without using a reach weapon, and threatening at 10 ft, you won't generate enough aoos to make combat reflexes any use (IMO).
Belts of dexterity increase dex. Urgh...two weapon fighting needs 15 dex. Here I thought it only required 13. Guess Fruian's stat array is the way to go.
Battlemap positioning promote family harmony.
Try Holy Tactician Paladin. Third level share teamwork feat Outflank all time!
Three-Fourth BAB Oracle Rogue hit more. Smile big. Thanks mom!
Maybe all three take Precise Strike and Wild Flanking too.
The stat boost that Just a Mort was referring to is the one gained at every fourth level due to leveling.
The stat boost that Just a Mort was referring to is the one gained at every fourth level due to leveling.
Can item attribute bonuses qualify characters for a feat as long as they wear the item?
Braxon
I recommend replacing the homebrew broken wand with a 50 charge cure light wounds. Make them do resource management. When it runs out either drop another wand or suggest they buy one with party funds.
I understand your comment about making them do resource management. For their first campaign I want to go easy on that until I see how they do with everything else that is new.
I did mean to ask what you meant about "homebrew broken wand". It was not my idea. I got it from a Pathfinder group in my city. I thought it was a great way to keep action flowing but I would like to hear your thoughts.
I would think that a 50 charge cure light wound wand would effect much more than just downtime as it would effectively allow healing in battle and alter the balance of power.
Regards,
Braxon
The stat boost that Just a Mort was referring to is the one gained at every fourth level due to leveling.Can item attribute bonuses qualify characters for a feat as long as they wear the item?
Braxon
They can. Just remember that if the item is ever removed, then they can't use those feats, or anything that those feats are the prerequisites of until they get it (or a replacement) back. And that they have to wear it for 24 hours anytime it's removed before the feats will re-activate.
I recommend replacing the homebrew broken wand with a 50 charge cure light wounds. Make them do resource management. When it runs out either drop another wand or suggest they buy one with party funds.I understand your comment about making them do resource management. For their first campaign I want to go easy on that until I see how they do with everything else that is new.
I did mean to ask what you meant about "homebrew broken wand". It was not my idea. I got it from a Pathfinder group in my city. I thought it was a great way to keep action flowing but I would like to hear your thoughts.
I would think that a 50 charge cure light wound wand would effect much more than just downtime as it would effectively allow healing in battle and alter the balance of power.
Regards,
Braxon
Unlimited out-of-combat healing removes a significant part of resource management from the game, and allows experienced players (or just those who quickly understand the implications) to even more aggressively focus on offence over defence in a game that already very strongly favours overwhelming offence. If non-combat healing has no resource cost, then a win where the entire party is unconscious except for a single character with 1 hp (that is capable of activating the wand) is a better result where the entire party comes out unharmed but has expended spells or item charges to achieve that result.
That said, you've indicated that this is a game for young children. I doubt that they're likely to turn your game into that extreme a form of rocket tag. And they'll have plenty of other resources to manage anyhow, so your plan is hardly unreasonable.
A wand of Cure Light Wounds shouldn’t affect the outcome of battles much beyond 2nd level or so. It basically just lets you heal up in between them.
I’d take Shield Slam before ITWF and might even consider making the shield the primary weapon so you can use more slams and push foes around better. That could help you control who they attack as well as put them into compromising situations such as if you slam them against a wall and they fall prone. Actually, while it might seem pretty strange for a Paladin I’d expect that a Trip based build could really shine for making monsters less effective and helping kids beat them up. Improved Trip could also come online a lot earlier than Shield Slam.
I also might consider whether some of the PCs would benefit from Teamwork feats. Maybe they could get folks working together and using tactics.
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You see the problem of an infinite wand of cures is it gives the party a false sense of security, esp at low levels.We were in a campaign, fought off 3 waves of baddies, cleric had half his channels left, wizard used all his big guns (sleep and colourspray). We were like, should we push on, or stop. Me playing the ranger, told the party, as long as I have hp, I can continue. Since I was at full hp I voted yes lets go, and pally was in full agreement with me. So we continued and finished the last encounter fine. If however, it had been a bbeg, we might have wiped as we had half our spells and channels used already. So your party could be lured into thinking alls good as melees are at full hp just to walk into bbeg lair and get eaten because they had no spells left.
Everyone,
We actually played!
My wife's Pally is working well but it has not been able to shine as much as the kids (that is not 100% a bad thing). Enlarged Oracle with a reach weapon and 3 AoO on brainless skellies is quite awesome. 1/2 Orc Rouge with TWF, Orc Double Axe, and bite is quite cool too. Both the kids had quite a few high rolls.
She does have TWF, sword and board, but should couldn't connect with anything. Her 20AC let her take point but I am not sure she realized how nice that can be (she did go unconscious just like the rogue). =)
I did end up putting a Want of Mini Things in each of the backpacks. I also printed out what gear they ended up taking and it was listed. They have even mentioned the Wand of Mini Things but have yet to take it out and examine it. /bog
I did become a Roll20 subscriber and I put all of the maps of Crypt of The Everflame on it. The dynamic lighting is just SO cool. I also love that they can't see the map until they are there "in person". It is such a simple thing but Roll20 also speeds up battles so much. They got hit with a wave of 9 skeletons. I went ahead and gave every skellie its own initiative. With Roll20 I had no issues quickly tracking mob HP and turn order. That was worth it alone! I always hated trying to remember which pawn went to which HP on the dry erase board.
I put all of the maps into Roll20 and defined the dynamic lighting boarders for each one. I also bought the Bestiary 1 pdf and Photoshopped transparency for each monster they ran into so they would fight a "real" pawn. It took quite a while to do all this prework, but in the end I got the entire Crypt of The Everflame module into Roll20. WOW, it sure speeds up gameplay! I think I am sold.
Thanks everyone for all of your help!
Braxon