I've started a week ago to read this section of Ultimate Campaign but I have some doubts:
-Is it possible to sell capitals?
-Can I recruit/build more than one team/room at the same time?
Example: if I buy 20 Goods, 20 Influence and 20 Labor can I spend them all for build 2 rooms at the same times?
- If I build only a room it can start immediatly to generate incomes?
- I don't undestand the whole upkeep phase: Where is written that I have to pay daily my activities or organizations?
Sorry for my bad english
No one can answer?
The first thing to realize when looking at the downtime rules, is that they are over simplified for a reason. They are intended to not take much table time to deal with, so everything is very abstract. That said, they are not written very well, and seem like some ideas were changed part way through the writing.
You cannot sell capital. In many cases, capital is not something you actually 'have'. Labor capital, for instance, is not you walking around with a bunch of people waiting to work for you. Instead, it can be considered a representation of outstanding favors. It is not easy to sell your outstanding favors to others. They can be used for purchasing things though. Magic capital can be used as the crafting cost of magic enchantments, for instance.
Building/recruiting is not an instantaneous action. Each room or team lists a 'time' requirement. This is a representation of how long it would take to construct or organize that room or team. This is a minimum time. There are also limits on how much capital you can actually use in a downtime day, that is based on the size of the settlement you are in. It will take a lot longer to put together a team of rogues in a village of 20 people than it would in a large metropolis.
So using you example of something that would cost 20(G), 20(I), and 20(L), that's 60 pieces of 'capital'. In a village, with a daily spending limit of 10, that means the fastest that task could be completed would be 6 days, even if the 'Time' on the item in question was less than that. For buildings/rooms, the listed construction time is usually longer than the spending limit times. for teams, however, it is usually the spending limit that takes longer.
Technically, a room could start working as soon as it is done, but it should make sense for a GM to allow it. For the sake of simplicity, it is often easier to just build the whole building, and start earning when the whole building is complete. Its not like downtime income is all that much anyway. Downtime adds a lot more flavor to the game than it does assets. In the end, its more about an explanation of what these adventurers are doing on a day to day basis, and used to trigger events that are tied to their 'normal life', and not just their adventures.
Regarding the upkeep phase, that is mainly where ongoing effects are handled. There are no daily wages up upkeep to be paid on a day to day basis. The comment on spending for a room/team during the upkeep phase has to do with costs that come up as a result of events. If, for some reason, you cannot pay the costs that an event triggers, you cannot earn from that room/team until the day you do.
Thank you very much, but I still don't understand if I can start build more than one room at the same time. If I start to build a kitchen (6 days) and a bedroom (20 days) at the same time, this building will be ready after 20 days or 26?
You may want to send a private message to Chemlak. He knows more about the downtime rules than anyone I know. He's helped me to answer similar questions before.
Is it possible to sell capital?
Not really. However, you can exchange it for different capital, or invest it into something, such as skill bonuses of magical item creation.
Can I recruit/build more than one team/room at the same time?
I don't see why not. However, you are limited in how much capital you can spend in a given day, based on your settlement size.
You only need to be present give the orders to build a new room, or to hire new teams. As such, the time can overlap quite a bit.
You don't have to wait weeks before giving the order to start the next room or to hire the next team.
If I build only a room it can start immediately to generate incomes?
No. It only begins to generate income after it has completed construction (when the time requirement has lapsed).
However, you can speed up construction by spending more capital.
I don't understand the whole upkeep phase: Where is written that I have to pay daily my activities or organizations?
Generally, you don't. I suspect that, that's there for future downtime rules, or for downtime events that might require you to pay up to get a building or team running again.
Right, now that the pithy answer is out of the way, and I can get my head back into Downtime space, I can give this the attention it actually deserves.
1) No, it is not possible to sell capital. It can be converted from one kind to another, but can't be turned back into cash. As RD notes, you can use the capital you have to give yourself skill check boosts, which can be used to earn cash.
2) The downtime activities are "Construct Buildings" and "Recruit for an Organisation". Neither of these activities use downtime days. You are limited to starting a single one of these on any given day, but the rules are silent on whether it is possible to construct multiple rooms or teams that are part of the same building or organisation on the same day. I would allow it, since you are still restricted by the settlement's spend limit.
Edit: Note that even though I would allow it, this differs from something one of the designers said about the rules, which suggested very strongly that the rooms should be constructed consecutively. I happen to think that if you can afford the capital and the spending limit allows, there's really nothing stopping it.
3) A room starts generating capital as soon as it is completed. This will typically only be after the time requirement has passed. (If a GM lets you purchase an already-constructed room, it will start generating capital immediately.
4) Steps 1 & 2 of the upkeep phase are largely irrelevant (except for paying manager wages). Steps 3 & 4 only matter if you are away from the settlement for a significant period of time, and the rules for them are clearly laid out in those steps.
Any further questions, just yell.
Regarding the simultaneous building of multiple rooms in a building, I feel it is not allowed. The sidebar example in the construction section describes building an Inn. In that example, all capital in the Create entries AND the Time entries of all the rooms are added together, and that is when it says the inn will be completed (90 days in the example).
The example for recruiting is similar, meaning for a given organization, you can only really have one team being recruited at a time - or more accurately, one you decide to recruit for the organization, it takes the TOTAL time of all teams you are recruiting before that recruiting job is done.
All this, of course, can be slowed down by settlement spending limits as well.
You are limited to starting a single one of these on any given day...
Could you quote the relevant rule please?
The rules I've seen so far...
...seem to imply that you can get multiple rooms or recruitment going at once.
Step 3 - Begin New Downtime Activity: If you aren't continuing an earlier downtime activity, or are continuing one that doesn't restrict you from starting a new activity, you can begin a new downtime activity.
Highlighted singular for your convenience.
Right, but the downtime activity you are undertaking is to construct a building, not to construct a room. And the examples given specifically highlight the ability to build it all as a single build job.
Right, but the downtime activity you are undertaking is to construct a building, not to construct a room. And the examples given specifically highlight the ability to build it all as a single build job.
Sorry, CF, I'm having a hard time tracking whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me.
I think we both agree that taking the downtime activity "Construct Buildings" is the trigger necessary for starting any one building (regardless of the number of rooms the building is made from).
Is the question currently "does the building need to complete before income can be generated?" or is it something else?
For the record, I agree that RAW and RAI both point to summing the time requirements for the rooms in a building to get a completion time for that building. I personally think that it should be possible to build multiple rooms in a building simultaneously, provided that you don't break the capital spending limits of the settlement. (Speaking as a GM, though, I'd probably take exception to someone completing the 2nd storey of a building before the 1st.)
There was a question (second in OP, and clarified in the 4th post) on whether multiple rooms could be built at the same time, so say the building has 4 room, with the following build times: 3 days, 5 days, 12 days, and 2 days. Is the building finished at 12 days, or 22?
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Ultimate Campaign but I have some doubts:
...
-Is it possible to sell capitals?
In an indirect way:
Craft Magic Items
The Core Rulebook details how to craft magic items. As magic item crafting and the downtime rules both use days as time increments for all but the cheapest potions and scrolls, you can spend days in the downtime system to craft magic items, with each downtime day counting as 8 hours of crafting time. You may spend Magic toward the crafting cost.
Craft Mundane Items
The Craft skill allows you to spend time creating mundane items such as armor, weapons, and alchemist's fire. The standard rules presented in the Core Rulebook assume you spend a week on crafting, but give you the option to make progress by the day. If you use the downtime system, make your Craft checks by the day instead of by the week. The steps for crafting by day are as follows.
Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the item's DC from the Craft Skills table.
Pay 1/3 of the item's price in gp for the raw material cost. You may also spend Goods toward this cost.
Attempt an appropriate Craft check representing 1 day's worth of work. You may spend Labor to modify your check result, with 1 point of Labor adding 2 to your total.
...
"You can spend Magic or Goods to craft something" but you have payd half of the Magic or Goods price in money and half working on it.
When crafting mundane items the gain is small. You pay only 1/6 of the item final price, but you spend extra days making it.
With magic it change. A 3rd level spellcaster with with craft wondrous items and maximized spellcraft and intelligence 10 has at least a +6 in spellcraft. Taking 10 he will produce 1 unit of magic every day paying 50 gp and getting 100 gp wort of magic capital.
Rolling the dices he will get nothing (and spend nothing) 3/20 of the time, get 1 point of magical capital 10/20 of the time and 2 point of magical capital 7/10 of the time, for an average of 1.2 units of magical capital every day. After 5 days he would have 5 (or 6 on average if he roll the dices) units of magical capital. At that point he can make a magic item worth 1.000 gp that he can sell for 500 gp. But the material he used cost him 250 gp.
Working 24 days every month you get 1.000 gp/month. Not bad for a 3rd level character.
Ultimate Campaign but I have some doubts:
...
-Is it possible to sell capitals?
In an indirect way:
Craft Magic Items
The Core Rulebook details how to craft magic items. As magic item crafting and the downtime rules both use days as time increments for all but the cheapest potions and scrolls, you can spend days in the downtime system to craft magic items, with each downtime day counting as 8 hours of crafting time. You may spend Magic toward the crafting cost.
Craft Mundane Items
The Craft skill allows you to spend time creating mundane items such as armor, weapons, and alchemist's fire. The standard rules presented in the Core Rulebook assume you spend a week on crafting, but give you the option to make progress by the day. If you use the downtime system, make your Craft checks by the day instead of by the week. The steps for crafting by day are as follows.
Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the item's DC from the Craft Skills table.
Pay 1/3 of the item's price in gp for the raw material cost. You may also spend Goods toward this cost.
Attempt an appropriate Craft check representing 1 day's worth of work. You may spend Labor to modify your check result, with 1 point of Labor adding 2 to your total.
..."You can spend Magic or Goods to craft something" but you have payd half of the Magic or Goods price in money and half working on it.
When crafting mundane items the gain is small. You pay only 1/6 of the item final price, but you spend extra days making it.
With magic it change. A 3rd level spellcaster with with craft wondrous items and maximized spellcraft and intelligence 10 has at least a +6 in spellcraft. Taking 10 he will produce 1 unit of magic every day paying 50 gp and getting 100 gp wort of magic capital.
Rolling the dices he will get nothing (and spend nothing) 3/20 of the time, get 1 point of magical capital 10/20 of the time and 2 point of magical capital...
I disagree with using the above system for producing items to sell. The income is far too high, and doesn't reflect the fact that just because you make an item every day, for instance, means you should be able to sell an item every day. The income levels for smithys and other downtime buildings reflects that actual income that could be had, and in many ways represents not just the build ability, but more importantly, the item sellability.
This could represent how it could be done to reduce the price of an items manufacture, but i don't think you should be able to sell it immediately (this type of abstraction is okay for selling off loot, due to infrequency, but to do it every day doesn't make sense.
The above character with a +10 skill working in a workshop (counts as masterwork tools, +2), and gaining the +10 for working at a business would earn an average of 3.25gp/day, or 78 gp for that 24 day month. This is on top of the small income generated by the building itself.
Working 24 days every month you get 1.000 gp/month. Not bad for a 3rd level character.
Enough for an extravagant life style, according to the cost of living rules in the Core Rulebook. :D
Step 3 - Begin New Downtime Activity: If you aren't continuing an earlier downtime activity, or are continuing one that doesn't restrict you from starting a new activity, you can begin a new downtime activity.Highlighted singular for your convenience.
This isn't the typical meaning of that sort of grammatical construction. If I am told I can buy a newspaper for 25 cents, typical understanding would be that I could indeed by two newspapers for 50 cents. While the 'a' article is used before a singular noun, by itself it should not generally be taken to limit something to singular only absent other content.
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Working 24 days every month you get 1.000 gp/month. Not bad for a 3rd level character.Enough for an extravagant life style, according to the cost of living rules in the Core Rulebook. :D
Or enough to put some money aside and start building a more complex structure where some hireling produce the magic goods. After some time you would be capable to get a manager with all the needed skills to run the operation by himself.
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I disagree with using the above system for producing items to sell. The income is far too high, and doesn't reflect the fact that just because you make an item every day, for instance, means you should be able to sell an item every day. The income levels for smithys and other downtime buildings reflects that actual income that could be had, and in many ways represents not just the build ability, but more importantly, the item sellability.
This could represent how it could be done to reduce the price of an items manufacture, but i don't think you should be able to sell it immediately (this type of abstraction is okay for selling off loot, due to infrequency, but to do it every day doesn't make sense.
The above character with a +10 skill working in a workshop (counts as masterwork tools, +2), and gaining the +10 for working at a business would earn an average of 3.25gp/day, or 78 gp for that 24 day month. This is on top of the small income generated by the building itself.
Fist: the rules allow it. What your GM will allow is something different. The size of the settlement in which you live matter.
Second: it is the equivalent of 50.000 €/month. Good money, but hardly world shacking (I am not even near that kind of money in RL, but there is enough people in the world that get it).
Third: if the crafter has 6 day free for this exploit, wath are doing the other characters during that time?
If they are working on increasing the size of their businesses reinvesting the capital they get they have the possibility to have a self sustaining organization with one or more manager that oversee it without the need of the character input.
If they are adventuring he will fall behind in xp and possibly in money.
Your GM can just as easily leave 6000 gp laying on your doorstep every morning, and that's completely within the rules. That doesn't mean it makes sense.
Even if someone was to devote their time entirely to the downtime system, it would be far less lucrative than the magic item trade you discuss, even if they ultimately owned every business in the town. That alone, to me, implies it is no where near the intended mechanic.
The downtime system along with two feats lets you craft magical items at an 8th of their typical market price. All you need is time.
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Your GM can just as easily leave 6000 gp laying on your doorstep every morning, and that's completely within the rules. That doesn't mean it makes sense.
Even if someone was to devote their time entirely to the downtime system, it would be far less lucrative than the magic item trade you discuss, even if they ultimately owned every business in the town. That alone, to me, implies it is no where near the intended mechanic.
I suppose you don't apply this in a long campaign:
Cost of Living
An adventurer's primary source of income is treasure, and his primary purchases are tools and items he needs to continue adventuring—spell components, weapons, magic items, potions, and the like. Yet what about things like food? Rent? Taxes? Bribes? Idle purchases?
You can certainly handle these minor expenditures in detail during play, but tracking every time a PC pays for a room, buys water, or pays a gate tax can swiftly become obnoxious and tiresome. If you're not really into tracking these minor costs of living, you can choose to simply ignore these small payments. A more realistic and easier-to-use method is to have PCs pay a recurring cost of living tax. At the start of every game month, a PC must pay an amount of gold equal to the lifestyle bracket he wishes to live in—if he can't afford his desired bracket, he drops down to the first one he can afford.
Destitute (0 gp/month): The PC is homeless and lives in the wilderness or on the streets. A destitute character must track every purchase, and may need to resort to Survival checks or theft to feed himself.
Poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.
Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.
Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.
Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.
or the WBL would be skewed by that too.
The fun part is that a organized group can share that kind of benefits and that 1.000 gp in a month won't really change the WBL big way, while crafting your party magic items at 1/4 of the purchase price will change that, a lot.
The downtime system along with two feats lets you craft magical items at an 8th of their typical market price. All you need is time.1/4 AFAIK, what is the other feat that let's you halve the price again?
I know a trait that let you pay 5% less.
Focused Overseer lets you obtain a single kind of capital (such as Magic) at half the normal numbers.
Therefore, you can get Magic capital at 25gp a pop. Then turn around and use it against your crafting costs at 100gp a pop. Market price is usually double crafting costs, so you are only paying 1/8 the actual market price.
With certain crafting traits, I've been able to obtain ~92.5% savings with item crafting.
Focused Overseer lets you obtain a single kind of capital (such as Magic) at half the normal numbers.Where is this feat from?
Focused Overseer is from Quests and Campaigns, an official Pathfinder supplement that specifically deals with downtime rules (adding new downtime spells, abilities, feats, etc).
The downtime system along with two feats lets you craft magical items at an 8th of their typical market price. All you need is time.1/4 AFAIK, what is the other feat that let's you halve the price again?
I know a trait that let you pay 5% less.Focused Overseer lets you obtain a single kind of capital (such as Magic) at half the normal numbers.
Therefore, you can get Magic capital at 25gp a pop. Then turn around and use it against your crafting costs at 100gp a pop. Market price is usually double crafting costs, so you are only paying 1/8 the actual market price.
With certain crafting traits, I've been able to obtain ~92.5% savings with item crafting.
I thought purchasing magic capital was 100 gp, so 50 gp with this feat?
I thought purchasing magic capital was 100 gp, so 50 gp with this feat?If you 'earn' the capital, you can buy it for half the cost.
Yes, but purchasing capital and earning capital are different things. The feat only effects purchasing.
Focused Overseer lets you obtain a single kind of capital (such as Magic) at half the normal numbers.The downtime system along with two feats lets you craft magical items at an 8th of their typical market price. All you need is time.1/4 AFAIK, what is the other feat that let's you halve the price again?
I know a trait that let you pay 5% less.
Your attention to detail provides you with insights into how to more effectively and economically gain certain commodities.
Prerequisite(s): Focused Worker.
Benefit(s): You can spend a day of downtime to purchase one type of capital for half its normal cost (see Purchasing Capital). This capital must be the same as the focus capital you chose for the Focused Worker feat. However, the cost of the neglected capital, chosen as part of the same Focused Worker feat, increases by half again its normal amount. These changes in price apply to both the purchased cost and the earned cost of the affected forms of capital.
Special: You may take this feat twice, but only if you have also chosen the Focused Worker feat twice. This feat only affects one feat's focus capital. The second time you take this feat, choose the other focus capital from your Focused Worker feats.
Your attention to detail provides you with an excess of some commodities, at the cost of others.
Benefit(s): You excel at performing skilled work for a certain type of capital, but are less adept at generating another type of capital.
Choose one of the following types of capital to be your focus capital: Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic.
Whenever you spend downtime to perform skilled work to gain focus capital, you gain half again the normal amount (rounded down). However, you must also choose a second, separate type of capital from the same list to be your neglected capital. Whenever you spend downtime to perform skilled work to gain neglected capital, you gain only half the amount you normally would. This feat only affects capital you gain by performing skilled work, not capital you might gain by performing unskilled work, purchasing capital, or running a business.
For example, say you chose Goods as your focus capital and Magic as your neglected capital. If you spent a day performing skilled work to gain Goods, and the result of your Sleight of Hands skill check is a 33, you would gain 4 Goods (rather than the usual 3 for a result of 30 or higher).
However, if you were to spend the following day using your Spellcraft check to perform skilled work and again got a result of 33, you would only gain 2 Magic rather than the usual 3.
Special: You may take this feat twice. The second time, you must choose the other two types of capital to be a focus and a neglected capital.
So, if you are using a +10 Spellcraft check, taking 10, that's a result of 20, which means you would earn 3 Magic capital that day. You still have to spend the gp cost of 50 gp each.
You can just as easily build a small workshop, and use the Run a Business activity to earn with your +10 Spellcraft check, taking 10, and gaining a +10 for working at the business, resulting in a 30, earning 3 Magic capital, still costing 50gp each.
In short, you cannot get Magic capital for 25gp each, whether you spend 0 feats on it (running a business), one feat (skilled work), or two (purchasing capital).
Yes, but purchasing capital and earning capital are different things. The feat only effects purchasing.
In short, you cannot get Magic capital for 25gp each, whether you spend 0 feats on it (running a business), one feat (skilled work), or two (purchasing capital).
Please read the ENTIRE rule before posting.
Basically, in exchange for a couple of feats, you can add a whole hell of a lot of time to your crafting in order to save a whole hell of a lot of gold. Since you can officially pay crafting costs with your character's starting funds during character creation, while totally ignoring crafting times, I see no logical reason in the RAW why this wouldn't also apply to Focused Overseer and the downtime rules.
Please read the ENTIRE rule before posting.
I'll admit I'm no expert on the downtime rules, and I'm not a fan of them anyway, but my read is that 'these changes in price' is referring to the increase, not the discount.
Equally, if I am spending a day of downtime to purchase capital (and thus gain the benefit of this feat) I am not spending that day earning the capital, so even if the change theoretically applied to both, I'm purchasing not earning when I use this feat. If I am just earning the capital, i'm not spending the day purchasing that seems to be required to activate the feat.
In any event, I don't see how you can get below 50gp for a magic capital using this feat.
I'll admit I'm no expert on the downtime rules, and I'm not a fan of them anyway, but my read is that 'these changes in price' is referring to the increase, not the discount.
That's how I read it too. The part on purchasing for cheaper specifically points you to the Purchasing Capital activity, with no mention on earning. The penalty, however, is applied to both.
Changes is plural, referring to both changes (the focused and neglected)
Yep. There's no question of intent here.
When rules are potentially ambiguous like this, I tend to think the developers were not intending to go with the horrible game-breaking interpretation, and choose to be more realistic in my interpretation. But then again, I'm not a rules forum expoivangelist. Even as I interpret it, Focused Overseer is still a good feat. The ability to purchase the capital at the same price as earning it, without needing to spend the time to do so, even if it is NEVER used for crafting, is an excellent way to rapidly expand a business endeavor to new settlements. My interpretation doesn't break the feat, OR the game balance, so I will continue to use it that way.
Don't own the book, hadn't read it until RD pointed it out, but there's no doubt in my mind that Focused Overseer affects both earned and purchase price for the improved and neglected capital types.
Damn, that's a good feat.
[Since you can officially pay crafting costs with your character's starting funds during character creation, while totally ignoring crafting times, I see no logical reason in the RAW why this wouldn't also apply to Focused Overseer and the downtime rules.
This is official? Please cite. I didn't know so I've been houseruling and none of my players have taken advantage ever. I'd love to be able to quote this when explaining to them or when starting off as a first level wizard with 12 scrolls, a spellbook, some basic gear and a club.
"You can spend a day of downtime to purchase one type of capital for half its normal cost (see Purchasing Capital)."
What does this mean then? Are people saying it is meaningless and I do not really have to spend the day in order to gain the benefit? That I can do something else entirely and gain a completely different benefit?
The changes I see listed in the feat:
Purchase capital for 1/2 normal cost when spending a day of downtime to purchase capital for focused capital.
1.5 times the cost for neglected capital.
These changes apply to purchased and earned cost.
There is no change to earned cost for purchased focus capital listed, so even if we the sentence applies in some way to both the focused and the neglected capital, there is no change to apply to the focused earned capital. The feat doesn't change that cost so applying it to that cost yield no change, or a final price of 50gp.
I can't see any possible reading that would yield this feat allowing you to purchase earned capital at a discount.
You start your wizards with a club? Eesh. Plebian.
Anyway, I don' think there's a ruling on it anywhere, couldn't find one when I looked, but I always assumed that it worked... though I don't ever use the downtime rules so *that* hasn't come up.
Can you earn Capital and spend it in the same day? Ex: my level 2 dwarf fighter has Profession: Brewer and earns 1 Labor in a day w/that skill. Could I spend it the same day explaining it as he was able to batch up a small bucket of a beer he had fermenting and then went and ladled it out to workmen for free while they then put in some work on a Shack for him the same day?
Also I thought one of the devs had ruled that rooms could be worked on simultaneously. I can't find it on the threads though. My search skills stink.
This is official? Please cite.
Can you earn Capital and spend it in the same day?
Depends on the downtime activities you select. Earning capital generally takes up a day. Spending it may or may not take up any time at all, depending on how you are spending it.