In the Skull and Shackles Campaign I am playing in, I have a character with levels of Fighter (Viking). I'm looking at Raging Vitality for him. The problem is, he only has 12 Con. I know, I know, a front-liner should have more, but it was 15 pt buy and he isn't only a front-liner. Guy wears a lot of hats.
Raging Vitality
While raging, you are full of vigor and health.
Prerequisites: Con 15, rage class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you are raging, the morale bonus to your Constitution increases by +2. Your rage does not end if you become unconscious. While unconscious you must still expend rounds of rage per day each round.
At any rate, since Raging Vitality has a prereq of 15 Con, would I be able to take the feat? I do have 16 Con when Raging, which is the only time Raging Vit applies anyhow. Id rather throw a Cord of Stubborn Resolve on him than a +4 Con belt, so I can get some rage-cycling going if I need to, but that only puts him at 14, and I'd much rather put my ability increases into Str than Con.
Follow up question: Assuming it is as I suspect, and the answer to the previous question is a no, what about if I instead get a +4 con belt before I grab the feat? I know that as long as you are wearing it for more than 24 hrs, it counts as a "permanent" increase, and it would make him eligible to take it. But what if I wore it for 24+ hours, then took Raging Vitality when I leveled, then switched out the +4 belt for the Cord of Stubborn Resolve? I guess what the follow up question is really asking is: If I take it when I DO meet the prereqs (due to wearing +4 belt), and then lose the prereqs cause I got rid of the belt, does the now-dormant feat "kick back in" once I rage and go back to 16 Con? Whew, that was a long-winded one, and hopefully clear.
Thanks in advance for any responses. Much appreciated.
No to the first.
I guess yes to the follow up.
Items do count to allow you to pick up feats. However, if you lose the item you lose access to and benefits from the feat.
So if you buy a +4 belt, put it on for 24 hours to enable you to qualify, take the feat, then remove the belt. You have now lost the use of that feat.
If you wear the belt while taking the feat it should work while raging even without the belt because the con is high enough. But I think many GMs would freak out when you try it.
Items do count to allow you to pick up feats. However, if you lose the item you lose access to and benefits from the feat.
So if you buy a +4 belt, put it on for 24 hours to enable you to qualify, take the feat, then remove the belt. You have now lost the use of that feat.
Yes, I remove the belt. I have lost access to the feat when I'm not raging. Then I get in a fight and rage, bringing my Con up to 16. Does that give me the use back? That's my question. ;)
If you wear the belt while taking the feat it should work while raging even without the belt because the con is high enough. But I think many GMs would freak out when you try it.
The GM is my brother, so I'd run it by him first anyhow. Just wondering what the forum people think
Yes, I remove the belt. I have lost access to the feat when I'm not raging. Then I get in a fight and rage, bringing my Con up to 16. Does that give me the use back? That's my question. ;)Items do count to allow you to pick up feats. However, if you lose the item you lose access to and benefits from the feat.
So if you buy a +4 belt, put it on for 24 hours to enable you to qualify, take the feat, then remove the belt. You have now lost the use of that feat.
I see what you mean now...
It might technically work, but I wouldn't allow it as a GM because it circumvents the normal rules in an unintended way. I would run it by your GM.
cool, thanks for the responses guys!
I think yes, if you can use rage to qualify for power attack I don't see why you couldn't use it to qualify for this feat.
Wear the belt, take feat, take off belt, get feat benefits while raging. Sounds RAW correct to me.
I think he doesn't need the belt. I think he can get it because he qualifies for it while raging. Just like how someone could qualify for power attack only through rage
Most GMs I have encountered say that you need to be able to maintain the prerequisite for 24 hours to take the ability.
RAW, the answer is no. You do not meet the prerequisites.
I think he doesn't need the belt. I think he can get it because he qualifies for it while raging. Just like how someone could qualify for power attack only through rage
I dont think you can use rage to qualify to take power attack.
I think he doesn't need the belt. I think he can get it because he qualifies for it while raging. Just like how someone could qualify for power attack only through rage
RAW, they cannot qualify for PA via rage. If Mr Barbarian took some strength damage that reduced his strength to 12 he would be unable to use PA unless he raged. But if his strength is only 12 normally he cannot take PA as a feat.
How much would you charge to rent such a belt from a shop for 24 hours? Certainly not 50% price of buy at full price and sell back at 50%. Maybe 10%?
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Most GMs I have encountered say that you need to be able to maintain the prerequisite for 24 hours to take the ability.
RAW, the answer is no. You do not meet the prerequisites.
Wearing the belt is maintaining the prerequisite for 24 hours.
Unless you meant in regards to rage equals qualifying for Power Attack which you're right about. Also that's what the quote button is for.
Hmm... okay, I guess I was wrong. I thought as long as you could qualify at any time you could take the feat. Like temp claws for natural attack feats and stuff.
Most GMs I have encountered say that you need to be able to maintain the prerequisite for 24 hours to take the ability.
RAW, the answer is no. You do not meet the prerequisites.
Wearing the belt is maintaining the prerequisite for 24 hours.
Unless you meant in regards to rage equals qualifying for Power Attack which you're right about. Also that's what the quote button is for.
It was a general comment.
But the 24 hour thing was not just magic items. A Druid's Wildshape could be used to qualify once he has long enough duration.
Extended threefold aspect is cool for stuff like that. Sadly it's personal.
Can't see a DM allowing this:
Barbarian finishes battle knowing he is close to gaining a level if he was victorious. He rages just as the DM hands out enough XP to gain said level and barbarian quickly announces he takes Raging Vitality before his rage ends. :)
That is basically what this works out to if you exclude the use of the belt. And is specifically not allowed because the duration of Rage does not last 24 hours, which is required to have it count towards the prerequisites for feats.
However, he wants to loophole around that by temporarily using a belt to qualify to obtain the feat. When he sells the belt he loses access to the feat, except when he rages his con would meet the level required for the feat and theoretically kick in. Except, this basically works out to using rage to qualify for the feat. Which isn't allowed. I don't think this should be allowed, which is why I've already stated I wouldn't allow it.
Can't see a DM allowing this:
Barbarian finishes battle knowing he is close to gaining a level if he was victorious. He rages just as the DM hands out enough XP to gain said level and barbarian quickly announces he takes Raging Vitality before his rage ends. :)
That is basically what this works out to if you exclude the use of the belt. And is specifically not allowed because the duration of Rage does not last 24 hours, which is required to have it count towards the prerequisites for feats.
However, he wants to loophole around that by temporarily using a belt to qualify to obtain the feat. When he sells the belt he loses access to the feat, except when he rages his con would meet the level required for the feat and theoretically kick in. Except, this basically works out to using rage to qualify for the feat. Which isn't allowed. I don't think this should be allowed, which is why I've already stated I wouldn't allow it.
Yes, Claxon is reading my question correctly. Im not saying I'd try to rage right before leveling and use that to qualify to take the feat. I'm saying, can I wear a +4 con belt for 24+ hrs, then level up, then take the feat that I now DO qualify for, then ditch the belt, and then have an inactive feat (due to not qualifying anymore), that then BECOMES active when I rage and have 16 con.
Much like the aforementioned example of a Barbarian with 13 str and power attack, being str-drained to 12, and then raging to have access to power attack. he took power attack because he DID have the prereqs. Then it was inactive because he no longer met the prereqs after being drained. Then it became active again while he was raging and had over 16 str. ;)
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No, because you need the permanent increase to qualify. Without the belt you don't have it. Your raging bonus is a temporary increase no matter how you slice it.Yes, I remove the belt. I have lost access to the feat when I'm not raging. Then I get in a fight and rage, bringing my Con up to 16. Does that give me the use back? That's my question. ;)Items do count to allow you to pick up feats. However, if you lose the item you lose access to and benefits from the feat.
So if you buy a +4 belt, put it on for 24 hours to enable you to qualify, take the feat, then remove the belt. You have now lost the use of that feat.
A belt is a permanent increase.
[prd]Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.[/prd]It's clearly defined under "permanent bonuses".
No, because you need the permanent increase to qualify. Without the belt you don't have it. Your raging bonus is a temporary increase no matter how you slice it.Yes, I remove the belt. I have lost access to the feat when I'm not raging. Then I get in a fight and rage, bringing my Con up to 16. Does that give me the use back? That's my question. ;)Items do count to allow you to pick up feats. However, if you lose the item you lose access to and benefits from the feat.
So if you buy a +4 belt, put it on for 24 hours to enable you to qualify, take the feat, then remove the belt. You have now lost the use of that feat.
A belt is a permanent increase.
[prd]Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.[/prd]It's clearly defined under "permanent bonuses".
But not once you remove it. Which is what he intends to do.
But not once you remove it. Which is what he intends to do.
If he intended to keep wearing the belt would you let him take the feat?
What if a week later, they find a different belt that he wants to use more, and switches to it anyway. Can he still benefit from the feat while raging?
But not once you remove it. Which is what he intends to do.If he intended to keep wearing the belt would you let him take the feat?
What if a week later, they find a different belt that he wants to use more, and switches to it anyway. Can he still benefit from the feat while raging?
I would let him take the feat if he wears the belt for 24 hours without question. However, without the belt, level bonus to the attribute, or inherent bonuses, or some other type of permanent bonus (which I'm not counting rage among) he will not be able to use or benefit from the feat despite having it.
I would let him take the feat if he wears the belt for 24 hours without question. However, without the belt, level bonus to the attribute, or inherent bonuses, or some other type of permanent bonus (which I'm not counting rage among) he will not be able to use or benefit from the feat despite having it.But not once you remove it. Which is what he intends to do.If he intended to keep wearing the belt would you let him take the feat?
What if a week later, they find a different belt that he wants to use more, and switches to it anyway. Can he still benefit from the feat while raging?
So even though he would have the required attribute while raging, you would not give him the benefit of the feat, despite meeting all the requirements at that time?
So even though he would have the required attribute while raging, you would not give him the benefit of the feat, despite meeting all the requirements at that time?I would let him take the feat if he wears the belt for 24 hours without question. However, without the belt, level bonus to the attribute, or inherent bonuses, or some other type of permanent bonus (which I'm not counting rage among) he will not be able to use or benefit from the feat despite having it.But not once you remove it. Which is what he intends to do.If he intended to keep wearing the belt would you let him take the feat?
What if a week later, they find a different belt that he wants to use more, and switches to it anyway. Can he still benefit from the feat while raging?
Yes, because I think this is a loophole. Either he needs to keep the belt (or something else that provides a permanent bonus) or I as a GM wouldn't count it.
Yes, because I think this is a loophole. Either he needs to keep the belt (or something else that provides a permanent bonus) or I as a GM wouldn't count it.
If his STR was reduced below 13 would you also not allow him to power attack while raging?
This FAQ states that "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."
That feat's prerequisite seems like it falls under the category of "anything relating to Constitution."
Wow, I can see now how badly written that FAQ is, because without the proper context of the thread it was written in I can see how you would reach the conclusion that you have. But you would still be incorrect to assume that the intention of that FAQ had anything to do with meeting feat prereqs. That FAQ came from a thread about why temporary strength didn't raise your carrying capacity or make you better at busting down doors while you were under the effect of bull's strength. After the question was asked enough, the developers decided to say that effectively they just wanted to make it easier for everyone by just saying those things didn't change, until they said that sure it works okay and you can consider one the "quick play" rules and one the "rebuild" rules.
The scope of it had nothing to with qualifying for feats in any capacity.
Temporary abilities are not accepted as allowing you to qualify for feats since they are not "in use" at the time you would be selecting feats (as this is an abstract time).
Yes, because I think this is a loophole. Either he needs to keep the belt (or something else that provides a permanent bonus) or I as a GM wouldn't count it.If his STR was reduced below 13 would you also not allow him to power attack while raging?
Assuming he normally qualified for the feat with 13 strength, and took some ability drain. He already has the feat. Unless he is raging he does not qualify to use the feat, but he does qualify while raging.
I understand that technically the OP would qualify, because you don't' make a distinction between an enemy inflicting a penalty on the character and the player choosing to use a loophole in the system.
This FAQ states that "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."
That feat's prerequisite seems like it falls under the category of "anything relating to Constitution."
Ah, this was what I was thinking of allowing temp bonuses to meet prereqs, since I have the capacity to meet the prereq any given day. And it could be argued the feat prereqs are related to the ability score, thus being covered by this FAQ.
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I think that RAW it is allowed to wear the belt and take the feat, then only benefit from the feat while raging.
I think it is a good houserule to prevent feats like this, which only affect temporary statuses like rage, from being taken without the actual ability score being high enough. Otherwise, why have the requirement at all?
While it may be easy for some (depends on the GM), just getting the strength belt sounds like a time/money investment that should be rewarded. Usually, in the games I play, you're lucky to get a single item that is worthwhile for your build. So, if his GM wants to cater to his player's desires, it sounds like something that should easily fall within the scope of the rules. Given that nothing specifically says it must be a permanent ability score.
EDIT: Things could go somewhat awry with Paragon Surge out there but since any subsequent feats taken while surged up on the 'ol paragon would only work while in that state, it seems rather balanced to me.
Besides, if you took out this feat just because you can get a boost to the stat requirement by the ability this feat bolsters, why not take out any and all feats requiring stat requirements since any caster can cast a spell to temporarily increase any given stat (bull's strength, cat's grace, etc).
My point was to say I would houserule that you cannot take feats which boost a temporary state, that you only meet the requirements of while in that state. This is probably the only example of such a feat, but I wanted to word my prohibition widely enough that should a different feat I am unaware of come up.
Basically, you can't meet the prereq by using the ability that the feat boosts in the first place.
This is purely houserule, but I've always ruled that characters can select any feat they can potentially qualify for; they just only gain the benefits of that feat when they do qualify for it.
For example, I have allowed monks to take feats they don't have enough BaB for, because their BaB when flurrying was high enough. They just only benefit from the feat during a flurry.
Or I'll let a druid take Improved Natural Attack - they benefit whenever they are in a form with that specific natural attack, otherwise it's a dead feat.
So far no one has used this to do anything that has horribly broken any of my games. ~shrug~
I would allow it. Just to add to the statistic. Also dropping that many points into Con for a 15 point buy would be a bad move so this situation specifically is a good situation to be more lenient on this
Also, there is a barbarian archetype that does not get a Con bonus while raging; it makes thematic sense to me that this archetype would have a harder time qualifying for Raging Vitality.
Yes, I remove the belt. I have lost access to the feat when I'm not raging. Then I get in a fight and rage, bringing my Con up to 16. Does that give me the use back? That's my question. ;)Items do count to allow you to pick up feats. However, if you lose the item you lose access to and benefits from the feat.
So if you buy a +4 belt, put it on for 24 hours to enable you to qualify, take the feat, then remove the belt. You have now lost the use of that feat.
Yes. Qualifying for a feat and using it are two slightly different things.
If your gm is willing to let you use temporary boosts to pick up feats then get bull's strength and the like cast on you.
So even though he would have the required attribute while raging, you would not give him the benefit of the feat, despite meeting all the requirements at that time?I would let him take the feat if he wears the belt for 24 hours without question. However, without the belt, level bonus to the attribute, or inherent bonuses, or some other type of permanent bonus (which I'm not counting rage among) he will not be able to use or benefit from the feat despite having it.But not once you remove it. Which is what he intends to do.If he intended to keep wearing the belt would you let him take the feat?
What if a week later, they find a different belt that he wants to use more, and switches to it anyway. Can he still benefit from the feat while raging?
The thing is, he doesn't have the required attribute while raging. Misinterpretation of the FAQ aside, only permanent bonuses can qualify for a feat. Raging only provides a temporary bonus and cannot qualify.
In other words, a 12 CON with a +4 temporary bonus is not the same as having a 16 CON.
I feel it's fine to use access of bull's str to qualify for power attack. You'd then have a feat you can only use while under that spell. So for all the other time it's a useless feat. It's the fact that you need to meet the requirements again to have the feat work that can be a limited thing.