Agna's agressor line includes the following skill(s):
At the (□ start or) end of your turn, you may examine the top (□ or bottom) card of your location deck.
I thought this meant (when you tick the first box) that it would allow you to examine the top card of your location deck at the start of your turn and the end of your turn. Someone else argued that it would say "and/or" in that case. I would have found that totally convincing except for the two events being temporally distinct. It is obvious that the second check box would need "and/or" to allow the top and bottom card to be examined together for a counter example as they relate to a single potential action.
Any thoughts?
I've had the same question with these kinds of powers. Because of the concept of cards not having memory, I'm leaning towards it letting you make an examination at the start of your turn, end of your turn, or both. However, it can be taken either way so I suppose we'll need the official word.
I've also had a similar but mostly unrelated question about "or" in the game: Seltyiel has a favored card type of "Weapon or Spell". Does that mean he satisfies the need of a favored card when he draws either a weapon or spell, or does it mean that he can pick either weapon or spell as his favored card type, similar to how many bards can pick their type? (question also relevant to Flenta from the Fighter class deck)
You can use it twice per turn.
Personally, I'd say once Seltyiel had either a weapon or a spell, he meets his requirement. It isn't a choice, it two possible cards, which ever comes first. It doesn't tell you to choose, unlike Lem.
Ah. Well ok then.
Awesome, good to know. Thank you Hawk, Mike and Vic.
Thanks everyone, good to know :)
NM, question answered.
Everyone I know finds that wording very confusing. "And" would have been much more clear.
The problem with "and" is you might think that you have to do both if you use the power at all. The ambiguity can be solved by understanding "or" to be inclusive and "orr" exclusive :)
But wouldn't exclusive orr make you want to think you should have a hand with one or the other but not both?
Since English is not our first language, my group didn't catch that subtlety with "or" having two meaning. That being said, we still have debates regarding certain powers. Could you state what are your stance on these powers, is it "both" or "one or the other"? Thanks.
JIRELLE :
• If you are on a ship, you (□ or another character on the ship) may move at the end of that character's turn.
• You may recharge an ally to recharge a random card (□ or a weapon of your choice) from your discard pile.
The problem with "and" is you might think that you have to do both if you use the power at all. The ambiguity can be solved by understanding "or" to be inclusive and "orr" exclusive :)
That's why the word "may" is there, "may" means it's optional.
I suppose if you wanted to be more succinct, you could say "and/or", although I don't think that's needed for a scouting power.
Since English is not our first language, my group didn't catch that subtlety with "or" having two meaning.
It’s not you, it’s the card. I play with 10 people and they’re all professionals, some of them PHDs. If we all interpret the card the same way, apparently the implicit way we’re supposed to interpret the card isn’t explicit enough. Card games are all about clarity in the spoken language, this is anything but clear.
But it’s OK, I follow the board enough to know that I’m playing correctly, I can guarantee you that these powers are not being played as intended by most people.
That being said, we still have debates regarding certain powers. Could you state what are your stance on these powers, is it "both" or "one or the other"? Thanks.
JIRELLE :
• If you are on a ship, you (□ or another character on the ship) may move at the end of that character's turn.
• You may recharge an ally to recharge a random card (□ or a weapon of your choice) from your discard pile.
I think with Jirelle those powers mean “or” (you have to pick) because the power can be used only once per resolution. With scouting, that’s why you can use it more than one time, because the card has “no memory” during a different phase.
Interesting. It looks like someone thought "and" was more descriptive than "or" for Amaryllis' recharge spell ability:
At the end of your turn, after (□ and before) you reset your hand, you may attempt to recharge a spell in your discard pile.
(Emphasis mine.)
It's fine since it's a "may" power anyway, but so is Agna's power that was the start of the discussion. ::shrug::
But wouldn't exclusive orr make you want to think you should have a hand with one or the other but not both?
And = both
Inclusive or = 1st, 2nd, or bothExclusive or = 1st, 2nd but not both
So someone could miscontstrue "you may examine the top (□ AND bottom) card of your location deck" as saying you have to do both or not at all.
If you are on a ship, you (□ or another character on the ship) may move at the end of that character's turn.
This one is worded kind of weird, I'm just now realizing. Pretend the power feat isn't there and you get "If you are on a ship, you may move at the end of that character's turn." Who is "that character" in this sentence?
My guess is that Jirelle can do this at the end of every turn she is on a ship, whether it is her turn or someone else's.
The power feat seems clear that, she has to decide to move herself or the other character. And since you can only use the power once during the "end of the turn" step, she can't move both.
The question is though, with the power feat, can she only move another character if it is that character's turn?
I can see a few possible intents for this. All of these require Jirelle to be on a ship (anchored or otherwise).
Pre-power feat:
1. Jirelle can move at the end of her turn, but not others. The rules of the ship mean she can take everyone that wants to come with her when the ship is not anchored. (i.e. she is "that character")
OR
2. Jirelle can move at the end of anyone's turn, as long as she is on a ship. The rules of ships mean others can move with her when the ship isn't anchored and it is her turn, but no one can come with her if it isn't her turn. (i.e. that character is whoever's turn it is)
Post-power feat:
1. Jirelle can still do what ever it meant pre-power feat, but can now also move another character, providing it is that character's turn. This would mean that character was the commander of the ship.
EDIT: ACK! This is hurting my head. I really think this needs cleared up.
You may recharge an ally to recharge a random card (□ or a weapon of your choice) from your discard pile.
This one seems more clear. Before the power feat, you get a random card. After the power feat, it goes like this:
1. Recharge ally.
2. Decide "random card" or "weapon of my choice".
3. Either shuffle and pull random card or get the exact weapon you want, depending on your decision in step 2.
But wouldn't exclusive orr make you want to think you should have a hand with one or the other but not both?And = both
Inclusive or = 1st, 2nd, or both
Exclusive or = 1st, 2nd but not bothSo someone could miscontstrue "you may examine the top (□ AND bottom) card of your location deck" as saying you have to do both or not at all.
Right. If we take orr to mean exclusive or (and we forget that the rules say pick first), if it said...
Weapon or Spell: A valid hand is one with weapons >= 1 & spells = 0; weapons = 0 & spells >= 1; weapons >= 1 & spells >= 1
Weapon and Spell: A valid hand is one with weapons >= 1 & spells >= 1.
Weapon orr Spell A valid hand is one with weapons >= 1 & spells = 0; weapons = 0 & spells >= 1.
I think the Jirelle question deserves a new thread, so I'm making one.
Thanks all and sorry Hawkmoon for your head!
Right, so don't use orr probably for Seltyiel's starting hand choice or you might need a lot of mulligans ...
More seriously, it seems like everywhere that "or" appears on a card in PACG, you can assume the inclusive meaning. So Jirelle, as written, should get a random card, a weapon of her choice, or both.
If you are on a ship, you (□ or another character on the ship) may move at the end of that character's turn.
Can I change my response? Since they are in different phases you can probably do both with this power, since cards have no memory.
Just another reason they should be using "and" to be more concise.
If you are on a ship, you (□ or another character on the ship) may move at the end of that character's turn.Can I change my response? Since they are in different phases you can probably do both with this power, since cards have no memory.
Just another reason they should be using "and" to be more concise.
The other thread is here. The reason you can't do both is that Jirelle can only use the power once per step, so at the end of the turn she can only use the power once, either moving herself or letting someone else move.
I interpreted the power differently. I think the card means that the character who moves can only move at the end of THEIR turn.
What you say makes sense if Jirelle can move at the end of anyone's turn, because then both Jirelle and the other character couldn't move in the same phase.
Not sure which interpretation is correct.
Chief Technical Officer
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If you are on a ship, you (□ or another character on the ship) may move at the end of that character's turn.This one is worded kind of weird, I'm just now realizing. Pretend the power feat isn't there and you get "If you are on a ship, you may move at the end of that character's turn." Who is "that character" in this sentence?
"That character" is "you."