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With nigh 30 base classes available in the pathfinder system, I have observed the slow waning in efficacy of the 3 core non-spellcasting classes, eclipsed by the flexibility and power of the new classes (as well as expansion of spell lists for all casting classes). The changes below are an attempt to keep the original feel of these core classes intact while provisioning additional design space to realize a wider range and stronger delivery of concept.
in a nutshell the 'problems' as i see it:
Fighter
-poor saves
-no special shtick
-skill potential lacking
-few/lackluster class features
-high system mastery required
Rogue
-no special shtick
-skill potential lacking
-few/lackluster class features (especially rogue talents)
-trouble hitting in combat
-high system mastery required
Monk
-no special shtick
-skill potential lacking
-low synergy class features
-trouble hitting in combat
-high system mastery required
my fixes:
...
feel free to steal; i did!
my campaign starts sunday. two of my PCs are using my new classes. will report here periodically.
cheers!
While I don't agree with all of your changes, I believe that you gave us a nice toolbox to mod and play with. Thanks!
I will probably steal! My only question about these classes is what is with the "additional skill per ___ level"? It makes sense for the Rogue, cause they are supposed to be skill monkeys anyway. But for the Fighter and Monk it seems like it doesn't match the flavor of the classes.
I like what you did with the Monk. Very cool. I will probably modify Path of the Moon slightly for my homebrew, and change the spell list from Cleric to Psion.
Rogue is awesome, I love the incorporation of Shadow Magics. And the Skill Execution and Tactical Edges are very nice. I can see how you replaced your Professional feature on the Fighter with that, which is nice.
I'm putting together a (partially) new group, after 10 months off. One of my pals might be playing a bravo. It's pretty exciting. How are your conversions working out?
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We have had two 8+ hour sessions, flying through 3 full scenes the first time, and dragging through only half a scene the second time (very poor and unorganized tactical decisions led to a 3-hour combat that should have been taken an hour). I promoted them to 2nd level because they are that far along the AP. We chose as a group a long time ago to do story promotion, so I am merely continuing the trend - and enjoying it. To fill the void, I am going to be using/refining Fame Points to 'replace' experience points.
The monk has chosen Bluff and Diplomacy to promote to class skills (one per level). He has utilized my Weapon FInesse rulings (finesse is a weapon quality - the feat grants DX to damage) to build a mad monk whose only low score is Strength but who still gets a solid bonus to damage. The multi-class RAW Alchemist/Barbarian still hits harder than the monk (and without feat investment), but they are both frontline characters. I altered Snake Style feats to be accessible at 2nd/5th/8th (instead of 3rd/6th/9th) but require full ranks in both Sense Motive and Acrobatics, so needless to say his defensive capabilities will soon shoot up a leap. He is interested in slowly building up his grappling (took Improved Grapple) and will probably mix up Snake with some of those UC grapple feats - my rewrite of Maneuver Training monk feature will assist him to this effect greatly (it simply adds half monk level to CMB and CMD).
The rogue has chosen Knowledge (planes) and Survival and also utilizes my Weapon Finesse house rules to add his damage rolls. He took the Deadly Range rogue talent which grants him a Sneak Attack range of 60 feet, and is enjoying the early Skill Mastery (I did end up changing the name per your suggestion Ciaran) being able to take 10 on Sleight of Hand and Stealth rolls. Again, while he isn't a full front-liner, he provides solid ranged support and sometimes dashes in for a quick skirmish to, say, protect a caster who has been closed on by a clever enemy, or the likes. He told me he intends to take advantage of my Point Blank Shot ruling (DX to damage instead of +1 if within both 30 feet and first range increment cannot combine with any ST bonus) in combination with Deadly Range which will make him indeed very deadly within 60 feet. He will likely slowly build some sort of sniper, and hopefully I haven't gone too far in enabling the viability of a full-rogue archer.
And the ranger is going to re-build as a fighter - he told me he wants a 'tank' and I get the sense he chose ranger because, among other things, it evokes 'tough guy' whereas the classic fighter doesn't so much. I think granting the fighter Endurance also plays an equally important thematic role as mechanical role. My house rule adds to it "you only need 6 hours of rest instead of 8" which is a nice little give-back after divorcing it from Diehard (who is now dating Toughness - they make a much better match).
cheers.
These are awesome, and I usually despise the same old class fix threads. well done!
That is certainly significant, considering. The avatar I mean, not the 1000th post. Gonna take some getting used to.
Me too.
Kind of agree on the skill things. Rogue's fine, sure. But fighter and monk shouldn't get an extra skill every level. That just seems like it should be a rogue-specific shtick.
I think you've given the fighter, for instance, a hugeass numerical advantage over just about anything else that holds a weapon. He can essentially full-attack at +20 with 3/4 of his attacks, has a +5 bonus to weapon attack/damage, which coupled with his focus and spec feats put him pretty FAAAAR above even the barbarian, who is supposed to be all about those damage numbers and so on.
I like the concept you're going for, but you made it... well... I just feel you've made the Fighter class too niche.
For instance, Combat Expertese shouldn't be a feat you grant and improve upon. Give him a similar class feature which is similar, but mostly different from the feat and can stack with the feat if you wish it to.
Weapon Training at level 2 is win. The fighter didn't specifically -need- that one, but hey. It's not really game-breaking. You can use the martial versatility thingy on it to basically take Spec and Focus and outdamage just about any other martial class at lower levels. Keeping that in mind, you -really- don't need the fifth weapon training. I suggest moving up the 2nd training higher in levels and increasing the gap you get them at, so you round up to a nice 4 weapon trainings eventually. Alternatively, just take that 5th one away.
Edges are cool, but why does the fighter -have- to be a combat leader? Why does he -have- to have Endurance and stuff on him? You're forcing these things on the class, when they should be options available to a flexible and diverse class which can be tailored to a variety of different concepts.
Conclusion:
I'd be totally fine with
4 skill points.
A Bravery (Possibly renamed to something like Fighting Spirit) that gives something like: Reroll negative effect next round, saving throw bonuses for that reroll with a +6 ish bonus. One good save, as bravery balances this drawback out pretty well.
Edges being feats attainable through leadership-related feat chains, with Combat Expertise as a prereq.
Combat Expertise not working off of the Combat Expertise feat, but being an unnamed bonus. (Because most of the bonuses you grant with that class ability don't actually -require- combat expertise to be active. I doubt you need to take a combat-expertise-like-defensive-stance, which is something you do ONLY in combat, to apply for a feat early, flavor-wise.) Something with a different name. Perhaps you could use this class ability to decrease the attack penalty you recieve from power attack, combat expertese and similar effects. A +2 to hit when using those would be fair, I think.
Not all fighters being tough as nails, because that depends on the specific character concept you are trying to create. Don't quite agree with the Endurance bonus feat shtick. The fighter's got feats he can take that with, and in abundance. Just, maybe, make him able to sleep in medium and light armor instead and say that IF he takes endurance as a bonus feat, that increases to heavy armor as well.
Veteran of Battle. Good, I like it. Knowledge skills, no. That isn't -necesarry- for a fighter character and doesn't really depict the flavour of the class. An elf fighter can take Breadth of Knowledge and get the exact same effect, which is a racial trait, explaining that he indeed has seen it all due to his long life. But not every fighter lives long enough to "see it all". Instead, maybe, make it a sense motive bonus to determine the enemy's actions in combat and to help him resist feints and so on.
Having 4 weapon trainings. It's obvious that you'll use those two feats to take weapon spec and focus, bringing you to a +2 to hit and +3 to damage at level 2. That's treading into the barbarian's territory and just makes for a boring character addition, really. (No, really, it's painfully obvious that you created that specifically for those feats, as you even used a thing where they apply to all weapons in that weapon group.) I'm fine with it, but if you made mechanically unique ways for the fighter to fight, it would be alot more interesting than just boring numeric bonuses. Hitting harder is fine, but that's just not your job.
Suggestion: Instead of giving flat numeric bonuses, perhaps allow the fighter to make an attack and a combat maneuver in the same action a few times per day equal to your weapon training or just make it like once per round, then twice and so on. That could synergise well and simulate a very elaborate fighting style much better than rolling dice higher.
Those are my two cents and a dollar.
P.S.: Just to repeat myself 20/20/20/20 needs to go out the window. You're overdoing it. A fix isn't supposed to favour the fixed class over other classes which you are not fixing.
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Rogue
This one I like much more~.
Buuut, here's what I think:
15/15/15 BAB is nuts and really shouldn't happen. Sorry. I just can't take that one seriously no matter which class you apply it to. It's downright broken and shouldn't be there. Full attacking is an option that has its own drawbacks with different severities for different classes. Don't mess that up~.
Skill Mastery should be a talent. An option. Not all rogues are badasses under pressure. Maybe you've got that cowardly halfling rogue who just runs around screaming and is unable to pick the lock properly when the party is assaulted by monsters. Or maybe not. That's the player's choice, not something forced upon them, in my opinion.
Exploitations are awesome! Perhaps you could add that enemies suffering from those conditions lose their sneak-attack immunity against the rogue, or something? Or gain no bonus from fortification enchants? I find that as the main problem with rogues: Being unable to sneak attack certain things, making them just hide in a bush when fighting those creatures.
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Monk!
15/15/15/15... please, I'm begging you. This is not something any class needs, at all and ever.
No need for those class skills. He's not a skill monkey.
I like the Path idea! Alot! Perhaps you could make more than just two and have each path grant a variety of different abilities to spend his ki on! The traditional monk could give the standard bonus to AC, or extra attac or extra movement speed. Then you could have other monks do different things.
I love the Moon Path thoroughly, but perhaps instead of preparing spells, the monk can prepare a number of spells and then use ki points from his ki pool (Say, ki points equal to the spell's level) to cast them spontaneously? That would give him more flavour.
Perhaps things like Diamond Soul and Abundant Step and so on could all be features granted by the monk's selected path. Hell, just make the monk have "Path Ability" every other level, instead of those, kind of like Oracle Revelations.
Maybe you could even create a path where the monk gains a limited Rage mechanic! You could do so much~.
Perhaps even Ki Strike could be optional for the monk, as he could choose to be a ki sage of sorts, who gains increased spellcasting and other lovely mobility-related abilities? A caster who can cast from a metaphoric mana pool on-the-run? It's awesuuum!
Since, well, once again. I stress the fact that classes need to adhere to a certain general concept, but how you build those classes specifically should depend on the player, not be forced onto the player by the system mechanics.
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So that's all I have. I hope it helped and I also hope people aren't going to start biting my backside for saying that classes don't need numerical bonuses. Because the opinion I've formed is that many players here just want higher rolls. (Sorry for the honesty.)
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Waiting for my Unchained book (something is wrong with my order apparently).
In the meantime I have given a lot of thought about the Fighter, which I know that are not redoing (as Monk and Rogue), claiming that Stamina Pool will 'fix' the fighter - as if his probem was combat!
I stand behind skill points, more class skills, and better defenses, for the Fighter. Plus I had an idea I am going to call Martial Prowess for how to incorporate the 'prepared feats' idea without giving those away with a two-level dip:
cheers!
I assume that Athletics is Climb & Swim? I assume that Vigilance & Warcraft are homebrew skills?
I assume that you gave 6 skill points and two good saves because the ranger gets it, but it seems high to me.
Your "1st-level bonus" should just be a 1st level class feature.
I get the idea of your Bravery, but it seems complicated. What are demoralize attempt opportunities?
Armor Mastery isn't so much modified as it is absorbed.
re: saves and skill points ...shrug... I'm no expert. The paladin is considered a pretty good class. It gets those same saves and only 2 skill points.
Martial Prowess is OK. Seems pretty good for when you know what you're getting into, but not so much on the fly.
So what the heck are these twwo new skills?
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Without spoilering too much, I have incorporated the contributions of Unchained into my homebrew rewrites of the extraordinary classes.
Monk
Mystic Monk
Kept good will saves, knocked HD down to d8 (but kept full BAB) to compensate. Fixed fast movement to work with flurry, and retained a few class features (wholeness of body, diamond body, diamond soul, quivering palm) from the original monk - as well as improving each one or keeping the 'better' version. Mitigated madness.
For those who want more 'mystic'-y (read: more ki and ki powers), i give the option to revert BAB back to 3/4 as a trade-off while simultaneously fixing the enhancement issue: check out my Mystic Path feature!
Rogue
Cunning Rogue
Pretty much tacked on some of the unchained features, got rid of finesse (Weapon Finesse already does that for all weapons in my game), and greatly accelerated the rate at which the rogue can unlock skills. Added a limited re-roll feature and a menu-option for improving the evasion feature. Didn't touch the chassis.
Should be sufficient options to bring both skills and sneak attack back to the for, as well as mimic high risk/reward gambling in terms of the mechanics: check out Cunning class feature!
Fighter
Skilled Fighter
A simple upgrade of the chassis (saves, skills) plus one new feature that gives him prepared feats at the levels other full-BAB casters gets spells: check out Martial Prowess class feature!
I am keeping the stamina system optional. As his base class is much improved, any class that wants stamina will have to buy in with the feat.
stealing and/or feedback encouraged.
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Additional musings on the monk. I wanted to fuse the classes, the "original" and the "unchained" monk, in a way that used the new monk's more modular structure to further expand on the customization the class could offer the player, without simply dumping all good saves onto full BAB onto expanded ki pool, etc. Here is what I have come up with:
Mystic Monk
HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Fortitude, Reflex
Skills: unchanged except add Diplomacy
Proficiency: Simple and Monk weapons, plus shortsword and shortbow
1- Bonus Feats, Flurry, Stunning Fist, Mystic Warrior
2- Bonus Feat, Evasion
3- Ki Pool, Ki Strike
4- Ki Power, Still Mind
5- Style Strikes, Purity of Body
6- Bonus Feat, Ki Power
7- Wholeness of Body (with personal touches)
8- Ki Power
9- Style Strike, Improved Evasion
10- Bonus Feat, Ki Power
11- Diamond Body, Improved Flurry
12- Ki Power
13- Style Strike, Tongue of the Sun and Moon
14- Bonus Feat, Ki Power
15- Quivering Palm (original)
16- Ki Power
17- Style Strike, Timeless Body
18- Bonus Feat, Ki Power
19- Flawless Mind
20- Perfect Self, Ki Power
Mystic Warrior (Ex):
A mystic monk may always use his Wisdom modifier in place of his Strength or Dexterity modifier on attack rolls made using unarmed strikes or monk weapons. At 1st level, the monk must also choose a path to follow, which determines his base statistics and alters future class features.
Path Sun
The monk chooses to focus on the warrior aspects of his ki. A path sun monk improves to d10 hit dice and full base attack bonus, but his saving throws remain unaltered. When selecting a bonus feat, he may ignore all requirements for style feats so long as he takes them sequentially. Upon gaining a ki pool, he enjoys an enhancement bonus to his unarmed strikes as the greater magic fang spell so long as he retains 1 or more points in his ki pool. Finally, upon gaining style strikes, he initially learns a number of them equal to his Wisdom bonus (minimum 1), in addition to those gained through advancement.
Path Moon
The monk chooses to focus on the mystic aspects of his ki. A path moon monk improves his Will saving throw to strong, but his hit dice and base attack remain unaltered. Upon gaining a ki pool, he learns an additional number of ki powers equal to his Wisdom bonus (minimum 1), and his maximum pool capacity is instead equal to his full monk level plus his Wisdom bonus. At his option, instead of choosing a style strike at the appropriate levels (5th, 9th, 13th, 17th), he may choose another ki power in it’s place.
The following ki powers may be taken by a path moon monk (only):
Inner Goddess Root (Sp)*:
Choose an Orison from the Cleric's spell list. So long as that spell doesn't have the good or evil descriptor, you may cast it as a spell-like ability so long as you retain one or more points in your ki pool. Use your full monk level as your caster level, and set the DC (if any) using your Wisdom modifier. You must have a Wisdom of at least 10 to take this ki power.
Inner Goddess Sacrum (Sp)*:
Choose a 1st-level spell from the Cleric's spell list. So long as that spell doesn't have the good or evil descriptor, you may cast it as a spell-like ability by expending 1 point from your ki pool. Use your full monk level as your caster level, and set the DC (if any) using your Wisdom modifier. You must have a Wisdom of at least 11 and know the inner goddess root power to take this ki power.
Inner Goddess Solar Plexus (Sp)*:
Choose a 2nd-level spell from the Cleric's spell list. So long as that spell doesn't have the good or evil descriptor, you may cast it as a spell-like ability by expending 2 points from your ki pool. Use your full monk level as your caster level, and set the DC (if any) using your Wisdom modifier. You must be at least a 4th level monk, have a Wisdom of at least 12, and know the inner goddess sacrum power to take this ki power.
Inner Goddess Heart (Sp)*:
Choose a 3rd-level spell from the Cleric's spell list. So long as that spell doesn't have the good or evil descriptor, you may cast it as a spell-like ability by expending 3 points from your ki pool. Use your full monk level as your caster level, and set the DC (if any) using your Wisdom modifier. You must be at least a 7th level monk, have a Wisdom of at least 13, and know the inner goddess solar plexus power to take this ki power.
Inner Goddess Throat (Sp)*:
Choose a 4th-level spell from the Cleric's spell list. So long as that spell doesn't have the good or evil descriptor, you may cast it as a spell-like ability by expending 4 points from your ki pool. Use your full monk level as your caster level, and set the DC (if any) using your Wisdom modifier. You must be at least a 10th level monk, have a Wisdom of at least 14, and know the inner goddess heart power to take this ki power.
Inner Goddess Third Eye (Sp)*:
Choose a 5th-level spell from the Cleric's spell list. So long as that spell doesn't have the good or evil descriptor, you may cast it as a spell-like ability by expending 5 points from your ki pool. Use your full monk level as your caster level, and set the DC (if any) using your Wisdom modifier. You must be at least a 13th level monk, have a Wisdom of at least 15, and know the inner goddess throat power to take this ki power.
Inner Goddess Crown (Sp)*:
Choose a 6th-level spell from the Cleric's spell list. So long as that spell doesn't have the good or evil descriptor, you may cast it as a spell-like ability by expending 6 points from your ki pool. Use your full monk level as your caster level, and set the DC (if any) using your Wisdom modifier. You must be at least a 16th level monk, have a Wisdom of at least 16, and know the inner goddess third eye power to take this ki power.
*In all cases above, the Summon Monster is replaced with the Summon Nature's Ally series.