Remaking Perception?


Homebrew and House Rules


So ask most anyone and one skill that is agreed on that is most useful is Perception, with such a high priority people scour traits and classes so they can have it as a class skill and help avoid those nasty traps and ambushes.
So taking this into account, perhaps Perception should be changed so those classes pinched for Sp(Such as fighters and Clerics) can benefit as much as rogues and rangers? A middle ground for everyone.
My idea is that Perception is now +1 per level and can be modified by stats, items, feats and class abilities(Rogues still keep their trap spotting bonus) I do see it as middle ground so Fighters and Clerics can use their meager points on other things.

First draft of this of course.


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What if you made it similar to concentration? That lets everyone make the checks without spending precious skill points. The only things this changes are prerequisites(I can't think of any right off the bat), Skill Focus no longer applying, and changing Alertness.


This should probably go into the homebrew section, not general discussion.


Azten wrote:
What if you made it similar to concentration? That lets everyone make the checks without spending precious skill points. The only things this changes are prerequisites(I can't think of any right off the bat), Skill Focus no longer applying, and changing Alertness.

This.


I'll admit it's not my idea, just something I picked up from here on the forums.


I had it as a house rule once that everyone has it as a class skill. I still had players that did not invest in it.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

The idea that everyone needs Perception is pretty much a myth. Plenty of characters survive just fine without it.

That having been said, your houserule is reasonable if everyone in your group always maxes perception. Amusingly, giving it out at 1 point per level is the same as making it a class skill for no one, since the only difference for it being a class skill is the +3.

Verdant Wheel

I sort of did - not sure yet if it fixes the 'problem' of it being a 'skill tax' aka simply something most of my players feel inclined to invest in. This could be a problem of implementation on my end. And if it is, some advice would be well-timed.

I give all characters a 'passive' score for Perception equal to 10 + character level + WIS that serves as a DC for creepers trying to Stealth up on them of Sleight of Hand their stuff. I think of it as a defense score.

The skill (which I renamed Search) is for 'active' uses - "I search the area for secret doors" or "I try to locate the guy who just went invisible" and other PC-initiated actions. Furthermore, if they invest in the skill, their passive scores go up as well if 10 + skill bonus would give them a higher number.

My result? Many of my characters invest in the skill, despite having a passive Perception "for free." I'm not sure if this is because this is an old habit of theirs, if they feel that active searching is equally important as reactive perception, or because I still call for "perception checks" (even despite myself!) frequently. Probably a mix of all three really.

...

The thing is, though i like the idea of making it a sort of 4th save, skill bonuses (especially Stealth!) far outstrip saving throw bonuses; my goal (since introducing "conditional concealment" aka not assuming 360 vision) was to make Stealth more difficult in general by raising everybody's perceptive defenses, and such a change goes against this goal.

I suppose I could just eliminate it as a skill. But, then you create more work because Perception as a skill interacts with other parts of the system - feats for example - and I want to create options whereby a character is hyper attuned to his or her surroundings - which having Perception as a skill offers precisely between the +3 class skill bonus, trait and feats bonuses, racial bonuses, etc. and would otherwise lose the metrics race to Stealth. If that makes sense.

So, I feel I have to keep it as skill. Anybody else have a solution that keeps Perception competitive (with Stealth in particular) without system-overhaul nor skill-point taxation?

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I prefer the idea that Perception is an innate skill that can't be modified by skill points. Similar to initiative.

Verdant Wheel

Cyrad,
Do you use a "PAB" for each class? Or run it like concentration? If so, does the fact that it lowers the floor of Stealth viability affect your game negatively? Or do you have a mechanism to ensure that doesn't happen? What is the equivalent of a character who maxes out Perception as a class skill and has a racial bonus and takes Alertness and/or Skill Focus? Or do not such characters exist (at least in terms of sheer metrics) in your game? Do you still use WIS?

I prefer the "idea" too... it's the implementation that bothers me.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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I split up Perception into two skills: Investigate (Int) for active perception and Vigilance (Wis) for reactive perception. Similar to the 3.5 rules which made a distinction between Search and Spot (but without Listen). That helps to defuse the problem of Perception being an uber-skill. And I would argue that it makes sense for these to be skills, because both can be improved by training.

If the lack of skill points is the perceived problem, give those who are lacking more skill points and create enough opportunities where other skills prove to be useful.


That sounds pretty good, actually.

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rainzax wrote:

Cyrad,

Do you use a "PAB" for each class? Or run it like concentration? If so, does the fact that it lowers the floor of Stealth viability affect your game negatively? Or do you have a mechanism to ensure that doesn't happen? What is the equivalent of a character who maxes out Perception as a class skill and has a racial bonus and takes Alertness and/or Skill Focus? Or do not such characters exist (at least in terms of sheer metrics) in your game? Do you still use WIS?

I prefer the "idea" too... it's the implementation that bothers me.

I've only implemented it in a non-Pathfinder RPG project. Your concerns are quite valid, and I agree changing Perception this way would require significant changes to the game.

Perception Scaling
I'm quite enamored with the idea of having Perception scale based on BAB (Perception = BAB + Wisdom Modifier). This gives an extra buff to martials, gives them more use outside of combat, and eases the skill point tax. All of the martials in my campaign are Wisdom-based and max out Perception. This paradigm of a perceptive martial worked out really well where the martials felt like big darn heroes when a surprise round happens. In one case, the gunslinger saved the magus from getting swallowed from a monster that snuck up on her. Finally, I'm not convinced of the idea of a "big dumb fighter" that's as perceptive as a rock. Awareness is so vital to fighting that I can't imagine an unperceptive skilled warrior unless they're a raging barbarian or an ogre-like monster that simply uses its monstrous size and girth as a clutch. Both those cases seem better off as racial penalties or the result of a type of class feature.

Perception-boosting Feats and Abilities
To implement the idea, I'd have to ban Skill Focus (Perception). Technically that wouldn't work anyway because Perception would no longer be a skill. Class features with a scaling Perception bonus would likely have to be changed so they work more like Gunslinger's Initiative. I'd keep Alertness. Alertness is often used to model cases where a character has a mentally bonded entity, such as a familiar. I personally used Alertness to for a multi-headed race.

Stealth
Stealth needs a fix anyway. As mentioned in a blog by Sean K. Reynolds, Stealth is broken because it assumes every creature is observing everything in their line of sight. Removing this assumption would fix Stealth and help balance out changes to Perception. In this house rule, a character no longer needs cover or concealment to use Stealth, assuming the target does not have their attention on the stealth user (because they attacked them or something like that). This also buffs rogues/assassin-like characters. Since Perception scales off of BAB, this makes assassins very effective against spellcasters, which I think is a very cool niche.


Perhaps also tweaking the DCs of trapfinding/stealth detection. If it is +1 per level+bonuses,(and thus no more +3 as a class skill) nerfing the dcs to find stuff could be a good addition.

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MannyGoblin wrote:
Perhaps also tweaking the DCs of trapfinding/stealth detection. If it is +1 per level+bonuses,(and thus no more +3 as a class skill) nerfing the dcs to find stuff could be a good addition.

That's quite true.

I always run traps differently than by the book (which doesn't explain things very well). I allow a perception check at the moment the character would stumble upon it. If they fail, the trap triggers. If they succeed, they stop short of triggering the trap. They don't know how the trap works or what it does, but this reveals there's something amiss.

Silver Crusade

I split Perception into Spot (living, movement) and Search (non-living, non-movement). Spot is a class skill for everyone. Search is a class skill for those classes that had Perception as a class skill.

So if you are searching for a trap or tossing a room, the GM rolls the PCs' Search. If you are trying to see if the party sees the Roc approaching in the distance or if they notice those branches moving from the goblin behind them, the GM rolls the PCs' Spot.

Verdant Wheel

Amanuensis wrote:
I split up Perception into two skills: Investigate (Int) for active perception and Vigilance (Wis) for reactive perception.

Amanuensis, which classes get which?

Also I'm stealing this if my players let me...

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I don't have a compiled list for all classes (not all of them are available for my homebrew campaign), but as a rule of thumb:
- all classes gain Vigilance as class skill, with the exception of a few 'otherworldly' classes (cleric, wizard)
- classes that would gain Perception as class skill gain Investigate as class skill; there are some exceptions (barbarians, for example)

Verdant Wheel

Hows this:

Spoiler:

Perception sub-skill class skill list

V = Vigilance (WIS) (aka "reactive" Perception)
I = Investigate (INT) (aka "active" Perception)

Alchemist - I
Arcanist -
Barbarian - V
Bard - V/I
Bloodrager - V
Brawler - V
Cavalier - V
Cleric -
Druid -
Fighter - V
Gunslinger - V/I
Hunter - V/I
Inquisitor - V/I
Investigator - V/I
Magus -
Monk - V/I
Ninja - V/I
Oracle -
Paladin - V
Ranger - V/I
Rogue - V/I
Samurai - V
Shaman -
Skald - V
Slayer - V/I
Sorcerer -
Summoner -
Swashbuckler - V/I
Warpriest - V
Witch -
Wizard -

Wasn't sure about the Investigator... kind of shootin from the hip there....

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Huh, I wrote otherworldly when I actually meant unworldly, but in this case, it doesn't make a lot of difference.

Rainzax, that list looks good. I think the nature-based classes (Druid, Shaman) should gain Vigilance as well, but aside from that, I agree.


BPB (Base Perception Bonus):

Trapfinding Classes (and others that get +.5 Level bonuses to Perception) get 1.5x Level BPB.

Other classes that have Perception as Class Skills (and some that don't but should, based on GM) get 1x Level BPB.

All other classes get 3/4x Level BPB.

Verdant Wheel

After some extensive thought, I have decided to apply the following rules-of-thumb is divvying up Investigate and Vigilance, ensuring the former is more exclusive and the latter less exclusive.

Investigate (INT)
Will be granted as a class skill to any class that gets 8 skill points (Rogue, Ninja) as well as any class that has Trapfinding or Track as a class feature (Ranger, Hunter, Inquisitor, Investigator, Slayer).

Vigilance (WIS)
Will be granted as a class skill to any class that already has Perception as a class skill, as well as any non-spellcasting class that has Full-BAB (Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai) or any hybrid class that has such a class as a parent class (Warpriest).

The final score is this:

Spoiler:

Alchemist - V
Arcanist -
Barbarian - V
Bard - V
Bloodrager - V
Brawler - V
Cavalier - V
Cleric -
Druid -
Fighter - V
Gunslinger - V
Hunter - V/I
Inquisitor - V/I
Investigator - V/I
Magus -
Monk - V
Ninja - V/I
Oracle -
Paladin -
Ranger - V/I
Rogue - V/I
Samurai - V
Shaman -
Skald - V
Slayer - V/I
Sorcerer -
Summoner -
Swashbuckler - V
Warpriest - V
Witch -
Wizard -

...

In short, as regards conversation upthread: I'm not buying the "because nature" argument, I'm blocking out 'skill classes' that don't explicitly have a class feature that reinforces the 'search' concept, and I'm choosing Warpriest over Paladin for 'power' reasons. For the record, i was this close giving both to the monk "just because" - but decided to stick with my established rules-of-thumb.

cheers.


Dot! I like this idea and was not satisfied with the way perception is used far more often than any other skill check.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Add me to the list of people looking at the idea of splitting Perception into two skills, with one being reactive and the other active. DnD 5E did this as well, I recently discovered.

Verdant Wheel

I think the division reinforces two dichotomies:

Investigate (INT) is specific and active ("I search the statue for traps")
Vigilance (WIS) is general and reactive ("I'll be keeping a lookout")

I have been waiting for these titles - both of which sound cool - to solidify the concept. Because "search" just sounds boring by comparison.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

You are correct.
I hate it when I describe an area to my players in detail and they just want to roll Perception for their characters, expecting to be told everything noteworthy. At least describe to me what you are looking for and where you are searching! Sometimes, I even had them miss out on hidden treasure because I felt they didn't deserve it without putting at least a minimum of effort into the search. Then again, a good idea ("there might be a hidden compartment in that drawer") might warrant a bonus or even allow a PC to find something they would have missed due to a bad roll.
Investigate should encourage players to come up with good ideas and to interact with their surroundings (and therefore create immersion).

One thing I'm still unsure about is how to handle monsters. The obvious solution would be to use Perception for both Investigate and Vigilance. In most situations, monsters would roll Vigilance rather than Investigate anyway, though the latter is not unthinkable, especially with smarter creatures (for example, pinpointing an invisible PC's location by searching for footprints on the dusty floor).

Grand Lodge

MannyGoblin wrote:
Perception should be changed

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Perception shuffled off to a secondary stat, similar to how Initiative is handled, but I think the biggest problem with Perception is that it's usually used incorrectly.

I go into more depth in this thread, but I'll copy/paste here for simplicity.

There are actually very few things that require the use of the perception skill. Most everything else can be handled using other skill checks.

In my experience, only rookie DMs rely on perception, and they do it for two main reasons: 1) They're not familiar with all the other skills and what they cover or 2) They fall into the age-old trap of forcing perception checks for characters to perceive anything, from inconsequential details to major plot points.

Now, I've also thought of getting rid of the perception skill, but if you follow these guidelines, I think it'll work out for you to keep it around:

1) Only use perception where it is absolutely needed: The surprise round of combat when one side ambushes another and opposed stealth checks. That's it. Everything else is handled by other skills. Why is that barkeep acting strange? Sense motive. Is that tunnel safe? Knowledge (dungeoneering). Is that a real painting or a secret door? Appraise. Want to see the bottom of that well through the murky water? Swim (seeing through water is something an experienced swimmer would be able to do).

2) In cases where you want to use perception for other stuff, just increase the difficulty. For example, you might allow players to roll survival or perception to spot an eagle's nest in a nearby tree, but the perception roll is 5 DC higher. Make sure your players know you're using this system, though, or they'll think you're still allowing perception checks on lots of different things.

3) Never require perception checks for stuff that is either completely unimportant or absolutely necessary to keep the story moving. If a player really wants to know what kind of wood the inn is made out of, don't call for a perception check; just say some random type of wood and move on. Likewise, if the plot of your adventure hinges on the party locating a villain's lair behind a waterfall, don't make them roll perception. Have them follow clues or, better yet, have them encounter the villain just outside (doing some ritual or maybe just taking a piss) and chase him back into his lair for the kill.

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If you split the skill into two, I'd prefer Search and Notice.

This could tie into a trap rework, as well. I tend to run traps differently where PCs automatically get a Perception check to notice a trap right before they trigger it. Instead, they could get a Notice check whereas actively looking for traps uses Search.


One thing I've wanted to try doing is actually modelling perception after AC. It would essentially be the character's Base Perception, 10+ Wis Mod+ Racial Bonus+ Etc.

One could use feats to increase their perception, but their base perception would always be the same. As the GM you could use this to determine what they would notice without either having to roll dice thus avoiding suspicion from your players. Players can still have the search skill to actively look for something.

The problem is that it doesn't play or scale too nicely with stealth. Unfortunately skills scale in such a different way than saves, AC, or even BAB.


I do a passive perception score for my players. It's been a real help. Pretty much just 10 + their perception score, with classes that have trapfinding getting a bonus. It gives me a good feel for what they'd be able to find when they aren't ransacking a place. I've taken to being very strict about timing, so they've started to want to spend hours on end having the characters search every little inch, because their buffs will run out or more monsters will hear them. Of course, the Investigator with d8 inspiration that's free on everything just about auto-succeeds anyways...

I really like the idea of Investigate and Vigilance. There was a period where this party was trying to make themselves appear more intimidating, so they'd remake scenes of battles to look like more had happened. I let the Investigator roll opposed perception, basically, to cover up or change the "scene of the crime," like that feat in Eberrom. Pretty fun. I hope they do something with it in Unchained.


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Amanuensis wrote:

You are correct.

I hate it when I describe an area to my players in detail and they just want to roll Perception for their characters, expecting to be told everything noteworthy. At least describe to me what you are looking for and where you are searching!

Your players cannot go into detail because they aren't there. They can't tell what is or is not suspicious. They can't see where there isn't dust that there should be or where there's dirt that there shouldn't be or where the paint texture changes or any of the sundry cues that real people get in real rooms. Your descriptions aren't detailed enough. If they were detailed enough no one would be able to hold them in mind well enough to act on them. And searching a room would be a four hour session all on its own. That's the whole point of the perception skill.

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I agree that it isn't always easy to find the right spot between giving not enough information (meaning the PCs have no clue where to start looking) and giving too much information (meaning that the clues are too obvious or too complex to process). And I admit that I don't know in advance which clues might stir the players interest and which ones will be ignored. And sometimes, the whole process takes more time than I would like.

Still, I wouldn't feel comfortable in a game where an automatic Perception roll replaces meaningful interaction between the PCs and their environment. And I do expect my players to use their imagination, especially with the incentive of treasure or useful information to be gained.

However, I do understand if other people prefer to run it differently.

Verdant Wheel

I use passive Perception scores. It's like taking 10 at all times. 10 + HD + WIS + racial/feat bonuses. This requires no action on behalf of the PC and is used to see if they notice stuff without being prompted, or when they are being ambushed.

Vigilance heavily invested in will bump this up to 10 + total Vigilance bonus if higher. Further, PCs can roll their Vigilance skill to Stand Guard - basically going on "active duty" during their shift on an overnight rest - taking the better of the passive (10+) or their active (d20+) as their check against which a midnight stalker would have to roll Stealth. I find this fair because there are lots of ways to get a bonus to Stealth, and it is a popular skill. This is my alternative to the 360 degree vision phenomenon inherent in the core Stealth rules.

Investigate will always involve a specific intent. Searching an area for a thing. I am also going to let it be used to Recall Details, scaling this DC per elapsed day (+2 perhaps?). This will allow me to highlight a detail after-the-fact, and essentially builds on the INT-check to remember stuff. If the character has ranks in a specific skill, I will let them recall details related to that skill.

In short, I am cutting "Perception" into three pieces - one "free" defense score and two skills.

Also, for those posters ready to pounce, no, I am not doing this to prevent the PCs from accessing the plot. Thanks in advance.

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