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Sorry for the click-bait title, folks, but title is 100% accurate.
Around February of this year, after I had finished designing Age of Electrotech for Radiance House, I sat down to begin work on Pact Magic Unbound, Vol 3. Ever since I started Pact Magic Unbound, I had wanted one thing: to have one spirit, per constellation, per spirit level. That means 13 1st-level spirits, 13 2nd-level spirits, and so on. Completionism is VERY important to me.
Now, as I sat down to work on Volume 3, my brain-meat was working overtime and I came up with some great ideas. Like a new "constellation" that really wasn't a constellation at all, or the reintroduction of spirit alignment. Other bits were qualify of life improvements, such as saving space on spirits by breaking the Tome of Magic mold and allowing them to grant spell-like abilities to binders. But of course, as innovation kept on rolling I looked back at my old work (especially Volume 1) and signed. Pact Magic Unbound, Vol 1 was my first professional product. I've come a LONG way as a designer since then. I've gotten a LOT better. And honestly, I was sort of embarrassed of Volume 1 as though I was a teenager who had to sit and watch his mother show pictures of him as a toddler sitting naked in the bathtub to his girlfriend. Its not a good feeling.
That's when I decided to cancel Pact Magic Unbound, Vol 3.
In short, I cancelled it so I could design a better product instead.
The working name is "Pact Magic Unleashed," although that's not set in stone. Basically, I went back through all of my Vol 1 & 2 notes and fine-tuned everything. Abilities were streamlined. Alignment was added. Abilities were simplified. Balance between Pact Magic archetypes was improved. And the occultist was cleaned up so it truly is the master of pact magic.
I've been working on this clean-up project since about March now, and I'm happy to say that I've just about finished my initial draft of the product. This behemoth currently clocks in at 300 pages. It is everything from Volume 1, everything from Volume 2, and about 120 pages more, what *could* have been Volume 3. Includes are ten new archetypes for the Advanced Class Guide classes, about a dozen new binder secrets, the starless "constellation," alignments for all spirits, the inclusion of options for paladins and the game's alternate classes, and more. If we started on post production today, we could probably have this product out by December, January at the latest. But I want better for all of you.
First, Dario and I are looking to do some in-house playtesting. About the same level of quality control that we did for Age of Electrotech (which was fairly extensive thanks to my paranoia). Second, the art. While I love our Volume 1 and 2 art, most of it is almost a decade old at this point. I want new stuff. Sadly, art is VERY expensive, and with the amount of space I've budgeted into the book Dario would probably have to sell his apartment to pay for it all. So we're going to do a Kickstarter for this book, as literally dozens of people have begged me to do. Finally, Dario and I are planning on doing this as a hardcover, color-print book.
I don't have specifics so far, but here's what I can share:
1) Before we do the Kickstarter, we're going to be teaming up with a playtesting company that I know and respect to playtest the product with us. I'm hoping to get two, solid months of playtesting done through this company.
2) After the playtesting is done, I would like to run our Kickstarter. If I had my way, we would do this early 2015, but not only do I need to be comfortable, but the timing needs to work for Dario as well. I'm currently gobbling up all Kickstarter-related information that I can in order to prepare for this, because of the next part.
3) Our Kickstarter will not determine if the book gets made. Even if we fail to fund, we'll still make the book. We have the means to. Rather, the Kickstarter will determine if we can afford to have new artwork (and new legends; see below) made for our product. Whatever our minimum goal is, that'll be the amount of money that we need to commission artwork to fill all of the blank spaces that are currently in the product.
4) You'll get a good deal on the book if you "buy it" through the Kickstarter.
5) Pact Magic is supposed to be something that, once you discover, you get swept away in. I'd like to emphasize this by making our higher-value stretch goals VERY customer-interactive. A popular reward is going to be a limited "design a character for a piece of artwork" tier. So, for example, if you're someone who's played an occultist, you could increase your pledge value to the point where we'll take a character description from you and we'll put your binder in the book being awesome. Don't play an occultist? That's fine, give us a description and we'll place you at the receiving end of some occult-based pain. For example, those of you who follow me on Guidance and Everyman Gaming know that I love to sneak my kitsune cavalier into as many products as I can. If our project funds, then there will be a picture of my treasured PC reeling from the after effects of an alter age spell.
Just to throw out some random numbers that are in no way official, let's say that the the highest-level pledge that gets you a hard cover copy of the book, plus a PDF copy is $75. Then the next pledge level above that might be $100 - $125 to supply a description and have your character appear in a piece of artwork in the book. A pledge level above that would allow you to pick a description that I provide you and work with the artist and myself to design that character from start to finish. A pledge level above that might allow you to choose a spirit to have its full-page level written and included in the book. The highest-level pledge that I have planned so far will allow you to design what our iconic occultist looks like.
6) One of the unlockables that Dario and I want to provide is what we're calling "celebrity legends." I'm in the process of contacting some well-known people in the Pathfinder community to take part in this stretch goal. I won't name names of the people that I've talked to (there honestly hasn't been very many), but I've gotten a few people who've implied interest that I'm REALLY excited to work with.
7) More content. This is what you've been waiting to hear about, isn't it? Currently the book sits at about 300 pages, give or take a page or five. Dario and I are willing to bring this total up to a maximum of 500 pages, meaning that there will be about 200 pages of stretch goals available, including new levels, new races, updates to class Secrets of Pact Magic systems, prestige classes, and the thing that EVERYONE has been asking me for ... Mythic Pact Magic.
I will have a LOT more to say about this in the next few months, but in the meantime, I have several things to ask of you, fans of Pact Magic Unbound.
1 — Tell people that we're coming. The more people who are looking for our Kickstarter when it happens the better.
2 — Talk about it here. Tell me what you want to see and what you don't want to see? What did other RPG Kickstarters do that you like and what did they do that you didn't like? What would make or break our Kickstarter for you?
3 — Figure out who your favorite Pathfinder RPG authors are and ask them to check out this page. I would like a diverse roster of writers to call upon for stretch goals. Better chance that I get someone you've heard of and/or like.
4 — I've been hunting down useful tips for running a successful Kickstarters. I read about it almost every day. If you find some good information, leave it here. I will probably check it out in a day or two. I've never ran a Kickstarter before and it would DESTROY me if something as cool as Pact Magic didn't get funded. I need my picture of 8-year old Kyr'shin tripping over his adult arms and armor, darn it! ;-P
I was hoping I'd be able to get a complete compiled copy of Pact Magic someday :)
I believe Scott from Little Red Goblin Games started a thread in this forum for people to post their dos and don'ts 're Kickstarter campaigns.
I quite like the campaigns that get you in for a PDF and an at-cost print copy of a book via OneBookShelf / Lightning Source. This also has the added benefit of offloading the shipping of books onto people who do it for a living. If I have heard one common complaint from KS project leaders, it's either that shipping is a logistical pain in the bum or that they underestimated the cost of shipping.
A lot
So the answer to my question from the product thread was..."yes". :P
Look forward to the Kickstarter. (By the way I think you should just go with Ultimate Pact Magic for the name)
I kind of prefer Pact Magic Unleashed, it helps it maintain its own identity.
I'll be there.
I love the idea of Hardcover, even if I go completely digital - so much easier to move the library around that way.
The only other thing I would have asked for is in V2 - the Background, traits and Favored class.
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Wow, you have no idea how much off a relief I felt after actually reading through the post.
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I'm glad to hear it, Alexander, but, honestly, Louis does enough of that click-bait thing for the both of you.
For advertising, I recommend you dump an article at tabletopgamingnews.com. It was the most effective single chunk of advertising we did for the Kickstarter, and the article went viral at other locations, to boot!
I kind of prefer Pact Magic Unleashed, it helps it maintain its own identity.
Well theres Psionics Unleashed already, but even the Psionics people went with the Ultimate branding for their big book. Anyway, it was just a suggestion and not a huge deal either way.
Sounds great, Alexander. I'll certainly be on board. Though I think, "Ultimate Pact Magic" would also sound great and fit nicely with first and other third party material.
I believe Scott from Little Red Goblin Games started a thread in this forum for people to post their dos and don'ts 're Kickstarter campaigns.
He has! I have that thread in my folder of Kickstarter reading material.
I quite like the campaigns that get you in for a PDF and an at-cost print copy of a book via OneBookShelf / Lightning Source. This also has the added benefit of offloading the shipping of books onto people who do it for a living. If I have heard one common complaint from KS project leaders, it's either that shipping is a logistical pain in the bum or that they underestimated the cost of shipping.
Tackling shipping is a priority on our list. I'm not sure if we're going to be able to do our rewards tier at-cost or not, but whatever we decide to do getting the book through Kickstarter will be a bargain.
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I'll be there.
I love the idea of Hardcover, even if I go completely digital - so much easier to move the library around that way.
The only other thing I would have asked for is in V2 - the Background, traits and Favored class.
Everything from every previous volume is in there. Nothing was cut.
I actually just finished putting in the Background Generator and character traits the other day. I *think* there's even a new trait or two baseline.
I kind of prefer Pact Magic Unleashed, it helps it maintain its own identity.Well theres Psionics Unleashed already, but even the Psionics people went with the Ultimate branding for their big book. Anyway, it was just a suggestion and not a huge deal either way.
The thing about the word ultimate, though, is that when its modifying a noun (like the word Pact Magic), it implies a certain finality. Like this is the last book on Pact Magic we're ever going to do.
This is totally NOT the last book on Pact Magic I want to do. I still want to do the Weird Bestiary, I still want to do Animism, and I still want to write up King Solomon's 72 Demons as spirits. As a result, I'm not convinced that Ultimate is the most appropriate title for the book.
You could always borrow a page from Magic: the Gathering and call it Unglued or Unhinged. :D
Seriously, though, I'll be backing this thing so hard it'll bust through to the front.
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The only thing I don't like about it is that I have to re-buy stuff I already bought. Fixes and improvements aside, it's still annoying.
Though having said that, I'll still support the kickstarter.
-Kcinlive
I kind of prefer Pact Magic Unleashed, it helps it maintain its own identity.Well theres Psionics Unleashed already, but even the Psionics people went with the Ultimate branding for their big book. Anyway, it was just a suggestion and not a huge deal either way.The thing about the word ultimate, though, is that when its modifying a noun (like the word Pact Magic), it implies a certain finality. Like this is the last book on Pact Magic we're ever going to do.
This is totally NOT the last book on Pact Magic I want to do. I still want to do the Weird Bestiary, I still want to do Animism, and I still want to write up King Solomon's 72 Demons as spirits. As a result, I'm not convinced that Ultimate is the most appropriate title for the book.
Well there's always "Advanced Binding Guide". :P
I see what your line of thought there is, but also its not like we didn't receive any more supplements with magic in them after Ultimate Magic was released. And Dreamscarred still has more psionics supplements planned, even after Ultimate Psionics. Anyway, its all just food for thought. :)
Commentary on clickbait titles aside...
I actually don't feel so bad about not getting to pick up Volume 2 yet. Count me in for the kickstarter.
Commentary on clickbait titles aside...
I actually don't feel so bad about not getting to pick up Volume 2 yet. Count me in for the kickstarter.
Yeah, I acknowledge its Click Baity, but at the same time there wasn't much else I COULD do to effectively grab attention AND explain why Volume 3 wasn't going to happen.
[Radiance House] Pact Magic Kickstarter Coming Soon! might have worked, but it seemed somewhat dismissible to me.
The only thing I don't like about it is that I have to re-buy stuff I already bought. Fixes and improvements aside, it's still annoying.
Though having said that, I'll still support the kickstarter.
-Kcinlive
Its hard to really understand how much has REALLY been fixed and improved. It is quite significant, and I wager when you have the final book in your hands (or join the Backers Playtest) you'll realize why we had to do what we did for this product to work.
Dario and I played with having an option that was similar to Psionics Augmented, but it didn't work out well. Too much is updated, too much is fixed. For starters, the Knowledge Task rules (from Volume 2) are now a core part of the spirit binding chapter. The occultist class design got some major improvements as well. Instead of functioning like arcane discoveries, binder secrets are now more like rogue talents and there are a LOT of new ones.
If we're talking about what content comprises this book, then of the 300-ish pages Volume 1 is 89 pages, Volume 2 is 100 pages, Volume 3 is 100 pages, and then there's about 40 all-new pages of material that wouldn't have been in Volume 3 if I wasn't redesigning everything for a compilation. (Volume 3 was originally going to be "Ultimate Spirits" and consist of nothing but 80-ish spirits.)
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Since I asked for a compilation like this a while ago, I will make sure to support the Kickstarter.
Concerning the legends, I prefer the summaries in PMU the the short stories in SoPM and VoPM.
New art would be a definitive plus since I was never too fond of most of the art in the pact magic books.
As for the Ultimate, Dreamscarred hasn't stopped working on psionics either (and neither has Paizo concerning magic, combat, equipment and campaigns).
And do we really need a Pact Magic archetype for the Brawler or the Swashbuckler? An Investigator dabbling in Pact Magic or a Hunter binding spirits into animals would be nice, but I don't think it's necessary to create an archetype for every Paizo class. I'd rather see some support for other 3PP classes. If you have an intersting archetype for a class, by any means include it, but don't write up a bland one just to fulfill quotas.
Concerning the legends, I prefer the summaries in PMU the the short stories in SoPM and VoPM.
That's fine, but every spirit has a summary and we have fans who like reading the fiction, so we're going to do more of that. Its fun and it breaks up the monotony of an otherwise crunch-heavy book.
New art would be a definitive plus since I was never too fond of most of the art in the pact magic books.
Its not bad art, its just recycling it over and over again feels a bit inappropriate, especially for a big project.
As for the Ultimate, Dreamscarred hasn't stopped working on psionics either (and neither has Paizo concerning magic, combat, equipment and campaigns).
Right, but Paizo hasn't done a big rules-centric book on Magic or Combats or running a Campaign since. And since Ultimate Psionics, Dreamscarred has done a book on NPCs and a Bestiary, and their next player-crunch book is set to be focused on Mythic psionics. Are they still tackling psionics? Sure. Are they still tackling the same type of player psionics? Not really.
And do we really need a Pact Magic archetype for the Brawler or the Swashbuckler?
Completionism is important to me. And honestly, I hit a brick wall with the swashbuckler, but now that its done the esoteric dilettante is one of my favorite archetypes in the book. Period.
I'd rather see some support for other 3PP classes.
We're not going to support 3PP classes in our big Pact Magic book. It feels really lame to say, "Hey! You just spent $50+ on this book, now go out and buy Ultimate Psionics!" I would rather find a way to make a book that catered specifically to fans of both psionics and pact magic, for example. I'm confident that the DSP gents and I'll think of something.
If you have an interesting archetype for a class, by any means include it, but don't write up a bland one just to fulfill quotas.
Luckily, between the closed playtest and the backer playtest, that shouldn't be a problem.
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That's fine, but every spirit has a summary and we have fans who like reading the fiction, so we're going to do more of that. Its fun and it breaks up the monotony of an otherwise crunch-heavy book.
If it's done like in Pact Magic Unleashed (only a few short stories), I'm okay with it. In the 3.5 books, I found the amount of space devoted to those stories excessive.
In my experience, books with more than 400 pages are rather unwieldly. I also prefer to read fiction in A5 or smaller.In the Ultimate Psionics kickstarter, there was the option to get a limited edition that included the Psionic Bestiary. I decided against it because the book was already huge and got the Bestiary seperately instead.
How about releasing an anthology of the stories as a PDF for all backers with a print copy as an add-on?
Right, but Paizo hasn't done a big rules-centric book on Magic or Combats or running a Campaign since. And since Ultimate Psionics, Dreamscarred has done a book on NPCs and a Bestiary, and their next player-crunch book is set to be focused on Mythic psionics. Are they still tackling psionics? Sure. Are they still tackling the same type of player psionics? Not really.
Paizo has currently several (smaller) books on ranged and melee combat anounced. Dreamscarred is working on another psionic discipline, as well as supplements for psionic classes. There's also the psionic Third Dawn setting. Do those books have the same scope as Ultimate Psionics? Certainly not, but they are still expanding their psionic rules.
esoteric dilettante
Sounds interesting. What the archetype about?
I'm confident that the DSP gents and I'll think of something.
Since I remember you telling me that it would still be too early for an 'Ultimate Pact Magic' compilation, I will be patient ...
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I'd be quite happy *not* to see any mythic material in the hardback, maybe as a high stretch goal for a separate book.
I've had quite a few people ask for the opposite. I don't think I'm going to be able to please everyone, but we'll see. Maybe Mythic Pact Magic *should* be its own book. I'll brain storm on it more while I work on the stretch goals. I would hate to feel forced to include Mythic support in this book because of a promise I had made, only to discover that the topic would be better covered by a full book.
I'd also be happy to leave out the colour aspects as well. $ 75 dollars is a lot, especially when shipping outside the US will be added on top of that. $50 with black and white illustrations would be good for me, especially as I already have volumes 1 & 2. (Perhaps a reduction is possible for those who have both volumes, perhaps by emailing you a picture of us holding those books?)
I'll take to Dario about doing a Black and White version for those who want it. Color could certainly be a premium. We're still talking about how we want to handle shipping; I've watched poor planning in regards to shipping destroy other Kickstarters, so it is an issue that I am tackling carefully.
Incidentally, now with an upgraded occultist class, I would *love* to see an archetype that lets it use medium abilities (per Purple Duck Games Legendary Classes: Covenant Magic and Legendary Classes: More Covenant Magic), especially as there is an archetype for mediums that lets them use pact magic in LC: MCM.
See my previous comments on 3PP topics. I am not opposed to doing it, but if I do, it'll be as an Everyman Gaming Occult Options PDF, not as part of the core Pact Magic compilation product. This book needs to be about Radiance House excelling as a publisher without needing to rely on the works of other 3PP.
"How about releasing an anthology of the stories as a PDF for all backers with a print copy as an add-on?"I like that idea... I wouldn't want the hardback filled with lots of fiction!
An anthology is on the table as an option, but pulling all of the fiction from the book is not. Without a doubt, the fiction has been the most praised portion of the Pact Magic Unbound series by critics. (Example: Read Endzeigeist's reviews of the volumes.) Critics aside, we (Radiance House) actually have a very small minority of customers who buy our books for their fiction. Yes, they're a minority, but not one that we're willing to ostracize for an extra page of binder secrets or a prestige class or two. Plus some of the people that we're talking to about guest-writing with us are REALLY cool people that I'd be proud to list in the credits of Pact Magic Unleashed.
"This is totally NOT the last book on Pact Magic I want to do. I still want to do the Weird Bestiary, I still want to do Animism, and I still want to write up King Solomon's 72 Demons as spirits. As a result, I'm not convinced that Ultimate is the most appropriate title for the book."I like the idea of these, too! :) Just try not to take *all* my money, OK! ;)
But your money ... it is so sweet. So succulent .....
Question. Regarding what you said about looking at the spirits, does that mean that there's been a general upgrade of the abilities for some or many spirits? The hp damage done by many abilities isn't much on reading, for example, and some spirits just seem to lack oomph to me. Of course, some are meant to be of situational use, like the one that lets you travel to other planes.
Yes. There have been upgrades for a LOT of spirits. For example, all of the spirits with area attacks for Major Granted Abilities had the damage upgraded. (Area attacks are no longer restricted to d4s, for example.) I actually took Psyren's "Guide to the Occultist" and took a hard look at his opinions (as well as other opinions I've found on other forums and threads) and considered them considerably. Toned some things down that were too good while boosting spirits that were too low. Are all of the spirits perfectly equal? Heck no, and I wouldn't want them to be. But hopefully there is a good reason to consider sealing a pact with every spirit in Pact Magic Unleashed, even if you need a specialized build to utilize the spirit effectively.
That's fine, but every spirit has a summary and we have fans who like reading the fiction, so we're going to do more of that. Its fun and it breaks up the monotony of an otherwise crunch-heavy book.If it's done like in Pact Magic Unleashed (only a few short stories), I'm okay with it. In the 3.5 books, I found the amount of space devoted to those stories excessive.
From what I remember of what I've already done, every expanded legend in Pact Magic Unleashed is roughly one page long with the exception of Cornelius Button, who has two pages. Some legends will have artwork, but every legend has its own header and is kept separate from (but directly adjacent to) its associated spirit. In this way, it is easy to skip the fiction if you aren't interested, sort of like how you can easily skip the short scenes in the Pathfinder rulebooks that are found at the start of every chapter.
In my experience, books with more than 400 pages are rather unwieldly. I also prefer to read fiction in A5 or smaller.
I'm not sure if I agree with that. Pathfinder's Core Rulebook isn't unwieldily, and neither is Dreamscarred Press's Ultimate Psionics. Our book is going to be similar to Ultimate Psionics, but it will be better divided into sections. One of the things that bugged me about Ultimate Psionics was that the class options from Psionics Augmented were in a different chapter from the base classes. Think of how I laid out Chapter 3's binding rules in Volume 1 – I have optimized the formatting of this book for accessibility.
In the Ultimate Psionics kickstarter, there was the option to get a limited edition that included the Psionic Bestiary. I decided against it because the book was already huge and got the Bestiary seperately instead.
500 pages is the absolute highest that I'm willing to go. Coincidentally, it is also the largest size offered by our printer, but I'm sure THAT has nothing to do with my entirely self-imposed cap. ;-)
How about releasing an anthology of the stories as a PDF for all backers with a print copy as an add-on?
See above. We like the idea and will probably do this, but we won't be removing the fiction from the main book to make this happen. Many of the legends in this book help put Pact Magic in context of the world and allow you (as the GM) to have interesting stories to tell to your players to help make Pact Magic feel more organic to your world. This is one of the problems with, say Words of Power; the rules have absolutely no flavor references to the rest of the world.
Right, but Paizo hasn't done a big rules-centric book on Magic or Combats or running a Campaign since. And since Ultimate Psionics, Dreamscarred has done a book on NPCs and a Bestiary, and their next player-crunch book is set to be focused on Mythic psionics. Are they still tackling psionics? Sure. Are they still tackling the same type of player psionics? Not really.Paizo has currently several (smaller) books on ranged and melee combat anounced. Dreamscarred is working on another psionic discipline, as well as supplements for psionic classes. There's also the psionic Third Dawn setting. Do those books have the same scope as Ultimate Psionics? Certainly not, but they are still expanding their psionic rules.
For Paizo, those smaller books aren't part of the same product line as the Ultimates. The point of Ultimate Magic, for example, was to be the final resource on Magic in the Core Rules. There might be other great resources in other books, but no book after Ultimate Magic did quite as much for spell casting as subsequent books. Same with Ultimate Combat or Ultimate Campaign.
esoteric dilettanteSounds interesting. What the archetype about?
Basically, its an archetype that specializes in using its Dexterity with whatever the swashbuckler dabbles in. She gets to use Swashbuckler's Finesse with any light or one-handed weapon that she possesses Weapon Focus with (and gains Weapon Focus with one weapon for free at 1st level) as well as any granted abilities that she possesses that require melee attack rolls. As she levels up, the esoteric dilettante gets to uses these "dabbled weapons" with her swashbuckler deeds and granted abilities. Like swashbuckler training applies to all of these types of abilities.
In short, its designed to be the noble who dabbles in pact magic only because he's got nothing better to do with his time or money.
I'm confident that the DSP gents and I'll think of something.Since I remember you telling me that it would still be too early for an 'Ultimate Pact Magic' compilation, I will be patient ...
Yes. You should. Now excuse me while I take this phone call from Andreas ....
I'd be quite happy *not* to see any mythic material in the hardback, maybe as a high stretch goal for a separate book.I've had quite a few people ask for the opposite. I don't think I'm going to be able to please everyone, but we'll see. Maybe Mythic Pact Magic *should* be its own book. I'll brain storm on it more while I work on the stretch goals. I would hate to feel forced to include Mythic support in this book because of a promise I had made, only to discover that the topic would be better covered by a full book.
I would like Mythic support of Pact Magic. It doesn't have to be in this book. Hell, I don't care if it's not even a stretch goal. But at some point in the (near?)future, I'd like to see it.
-Kcinlive
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Just to chime in - I'd love to see one page legend per spirit. It's what made Radiance House Pact Magic special in the 3.X days of old. I know it's why my players took such a liking to it.
Just my 2 cents, of course!
Just to be clear, are we talking 'a one page legend per chapter' or 'a one page legend for each spirit'?
A mix of both.
Chapters One and Three will each have a short story in them. Chapter One will have the Iconic Occultist's origin story and Chapter Three will have Dario's original "Pact Magic in Action" short story, which will have better context in Pact Magic Unleashed than it did in Volume One because all of the spirits mentioned within the tale are actually in this book.
Aside from those two, all of the short stories are in Chapter Four, the Spirit chapter. Every Legend from Volumes One and Two are in Chapter Three, plus three new Legends that I personally wrote for this book (bringing the total number of Legends written by me to Four). The only exception to this are the legends of Al'kra (which was a poem) and the Worg Lord (which was five lines of text with an intro). Al'kra's poem might make it in if our goals reach high enough for us to fund a piece of artwork to go with it, though.
Aside from the ones I've mentioned, all of the new legends will either be stretch goals or social media goals. For example, "If we get a combined 500 Facebook Likes and Twitter Retweets, you unlock a new legend for the book."
We're still working on the logistics of that. After all, we need to be able to pay the authors who write for us.
I would like Mythic support of Pact Magic. It doesn't have to be in this book. Hell, I don't care if it's not even a stretch goal. But at some point in the (near?)future, I'd like to see it.
-Kcinlive
It is definitely something that we will be doing.
The current idea that I'm tossing around in my brain is actually tying the 72 Demons and Mythic Pact Magic together. That's a big, 'ole "Maybe" at this point in time, though. I need to do more research on that mythology before I can officially decide.
But mythic support for Pact Magic is something that I still want to do.
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Just to chime in - I'd love to see one page legend per spirit. It's what made Radiance House Pact Magic special in the 3.X days of old. I know it's why my players took such a liking to it.
Just my 2 cents, of course!
You've consistently been one of the most vocal advocates for the inclusion of fiction in our products, this is true.
And while its true that we weigh Endzeitgeist's opinion a little more heavily than others because of his role as a respected reviewer of 3PP material in the Pathfinder community, he's hardly the only person that I've heard from who's spoken in favor of the inclusion of fiction in our products. The short stories in Age of Electrotech, for example, have also been popular.
Thanks Alex.
No problem. I made this thread to get feedback and answer questions.
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I think it'll be fine to throw out a little bit of additional information about what you'll see in the changes from previous products to the more modern ones. Here's a bit of a teaser.
"Boost the Occultist:" One of the complaints that I have for the occultist class as someone who spends a considerable amount of time making character builds (see my Guidance blog) is that the occultist, as written in Pact Magic Unbound, Vol 1, is constantly outshined by other classes in pact magic for the first few levels of her career, until 6th level when she gets bind additional spirit, as a matter of fact. In order to help the occultist deserving of the title "master of pact magic," I made a few big changes to the class and how pact magic in general works.
1) More Spirits, Sooner: While the occultist is still limited to a maximum of four spirits, she gains the ability to bind multiple spirits sooner. Bind additional spirit is now a 4th level class feature for the occultist and is earned every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of four spirits at 16th level.
2) Better Constellation Aspects: It was clear when I made Occult Options 1 that the constellation aspect class feature was pretty terrible as written. As such, I went back and redesigned all of the constellation aspects so they were roughly as powerful as 1st-level granted abilities. Here's an example:
Hero Constellation Aspects
As you can see, these are constellation aspects that you would actually want to have without being ridiculously powerful.
3) Binder Secrets as a Core Class Feature: Binder secrets return in Pact Magic Unleashed, but instead of being pseudo-feats like arcane discoveries, they function more like witch hexes or revelations. You get a binder secret at 1st level, 2nd level, and every three occultist levels thereafter. The list of binder secrets was heavily expanded upon as well; they include two subtypes of binder secrets (ritual and alteration) for a total of five pages, six including art.
4) Reduced binding for other classes. And now for some of the downsides. Several of the archetypes were just too good given the binding progressions they got. So in Pact Magic Unleashed, all of the pact magic archetypes (except those for the occultist) improve their maximum spirit level at a slower pace than the occultist; they improve their maximum spirit by 1 at 4th level and every three levels thereafter, to a maximum of 6th level spirits at 16th level. This means that 7th, 8th, and 9th level spirits are currently reserved for occultists. This is a change that is totally up for iteration during the various incarnations of our playtest, but I think that it is a positive change that helps the occultist shine.
And while we're talking about maximum spirit level changes, the other big one is that maximum spirit level is now tied to class level rather than binder level. This means that if you choose to multiclass around a lot, your binder level will stack between classes and improve the potency of your spirits, but your maximum spirit level won't go up and you'll be stuck binding lower-level spirits.
You're welcome to discuss this information here and I will definitely consider all comments made, but please do it civically and recognize that good design isn't always a Democracy. Have a nice day! ;D
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If the short stories make up less than 10% of the book, I'm fine with it. The fiction didn't stop me from buying the PF APs, either.
Concerning Mythic rules, including them in the book would have the benefit that each spirit could contain the necessary mythic rules in its writeup, setting the baseline. It would probably mostly be stuff like 'spend mythic power while using this abilities to do this'.
I'm not currently using mythic rules but it shouldn't be that intrusive.
Is backward compatibility with Tome of Magic still an issue? In that case I'd avoid using the 72 spirits since many of those are included in that book.
And with the number of spirits this book is going to include, is 'spirits known' a thing now or does any occultist know how to bind any spirit?
If the short stories make up less than 10% of the book, I'm fine with it. The fiction didn't stop me from buying the PF APs, either.
There's maybe a dozen pages of legends of 300 pages of game rules and setting information. Make of that what you will.
Concerning Mythic rules, including them in the book would have the benefit that each spirit could contain the necessary mythic rules in its writeup, setting the baseline. It would probably mostly be stuff like 'spend mythic power while using this abilities to do this'.
I'm not currently using mythic rules but it shouldn't be that intrusive.
We have a very strict "one page per spirit" rule when it comes to spirit game mechanics. We've only broken that rule in Volume 2, and MANY of the rule breakers have been simplified in the update. Off of the top of my head, only Cornelius Button, the Nivea Nieces, Circe's Runes, and Ma'zad and Aza'Mi have more than one page devoted to their game mechanics. PS. Rasputin and Doomed Salu'im are on that list too. There might be another one or two, but it is VERY uncommon.
Is backward compatibility with Tome of Magic still an issue? In that case I'd avoid using the 72 spirits since many of those are included in that book.
The thing is that we can't use those spirit names as they pertain to their implementation in Dungeons and Dragons. For example, we couldn't have a spirit who was a jester or whatever. But anything from real-world Goetia is fair game. Solomon's Keys were published in the early 1900s, so they're well past the point of copyright infringement and safely in the realm of public domain. As a matter of fact, the point that Solomon's Keys are in the public domain is the major reason we could do a Pact Magic book and not get sued by Wizards of the Coast at all. As long as we don't infringe on Wizards' IP, we're fine.
And with the number of spirits this book is going to include, is 'spirits known' a thing now or does any occultist know how to bind any spirit?
Sort of. The Knowledge Tasks system from Volume 2 is the base standard of how you learn to seal pacts with new spirits. You begin play having completed the Knowledge Tasks of one 1st-level spirit, as it is that spirit's information that lead you down towards discovering the secrets of pact magic in the first place. So its not table or a codified number per level that you know; its as many as you've discovered using the rules. The GM can even reward you with the knowledge using gnostic tomes, key roleplaying encounters, and so on.
Can I make a suggestion? If you have a table that summarises the spirits' abilities, please list them by constellation (and level within each constellation), so that people who like a particular constellation can more easily identify spirits they want to bind. (That would be in addition to the table that lists bind DCs, page numbers etc.)
I don't think that this is likely. Currently, the table that lists all of the occult spirits in the book is five pages long, and listing the spirits by level fits Pathfinder's established style and is a bit more useful. I wouldn't want to have ten pages of tables that effectively give the same information.
I will keep this in mind, however, as it is a useful tool considering the number of archetypes that are restricted to a specific constellation. Maybe I can fit something in there.
If I could make a suggestion/request here...
For the love of whatever you consider holy, please put a goal into the Kickstarter to allow for Hero Lab support. I don't care if it's an add on or what, but I really think it'd help get people using the content. I love Pact Magic, but my group has a general policy of only using stuff in Hero Lab because it just saves so much time for the other GM and myself. We occasionally allow small things in, but whole classes are a bit much to manage without that support.
Add me as another vote for the Mythic material to be its own separate book.
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If I could make a suggestion/request here...
For the love of whatever you consider holy, please put a goal into the Kickstarter to allow for Hero Lab support. I don't care if it's an add on or what, but I really think it'd help get people using the content. I love Pact Magic, but my group has a general policy of only using stuff in Hero Lab because it just saves so much time for the other GM and myself. We occasionally allow small things in, but whole classes are a bit much to manage without that support.
In that case, I would like PCGen support, too.
If I could make a suggestion/request here...
For the love of whatever you consider holy, please put a goal into the Kickstarter to allow for Hero Lab support. I don't care if it's an add on or what, but I really think it'd help get people using the content. I love Pact Magic, but my group has a general policy of only using stuff in Hero Lab because it just saves so much time for the other GM and myself. We occasionally allow small things in, but whole classes are a bit much to manage without that support.
Further to this, I know you've said before that you don't personally have the skills to setup Hero Lab files. But with a Kickstarter, you could budget getting someone to do that in as part of the cost of the project, or at the least as a stretch goal.
If I could make a suggestion/request here...
For the love of whatever you consider holy, please put a goal into the Kickstarter to allow for Hero Lab support. I don't care if it's an add on or what, but I really think it'd help get people using the content. I love Pact Magic, but my group has a general policy of only using stuff in Hero Lab because it just saves so much time for the other GM and myself. We occasionally allow small things in, but whole classes are a bit much to manage without that support.
That's actually something I want to do, but I'll need to find A) someone who can do it and B) someone who wants a reasonable amount of money to do it.
I'll add it to my list of things to look for, and it'll be a stretch goal almost certainly.
If I could make a suggestion/request here...
For the love of whatever you consider holy, please put a goal into the Kickstarter to allow for Hero Lab support. I don't care if it's an add on or what, but I really think it'd help get people using the content. I love Pact Magic, but my group has a general policy of only using stuff in Hero Lab because it just saves so much time for the other GM and myself. We occasionally allow small things in, but whole classes are a bit much to manage without that support.
That's actually something I want to do, but I'll need to find A) someone who can do it and B) someone who wants a reasonable amount of money to do it.
I'll add it to my list of things to look for, and it'll be a stretch goal almost certainly.
In that case, I would like PCGen support, too.
Same.
Since you two have consistently been advocates for PCGen / HeroLab support, if you know of someone who does this sort of coding for the community, why don't you shoot them a message and send them here? Help me out a bit. ;-)
If I could make a suggestion/request here...
For the love of whatever you consider holy, please put a goal into the Kickstarter to allow for Hero Lab support. I don't care if it's an add on or what, but I really think it'd help get people using the content. I love Pact Magic, but my group has a general policy of only using stuff in Hero Lab because it just saves so much time for the other GM and myself. We occasionally allow small things in, but whole classes are a bit much to manage without that support.
That's actually something I want to do, but I'll need to find A) someone who can do it and B) someone who wants a reasonable amount of money to do it.
I'll add it to my list of things to look for, and it'll be a stretch goal almost certainly.
In that case, I would like PCGen support, too.Same.
Since you two have consistently been advocates for PCGen / HeroLab support, if you know of someone who does this sort of coding for the community, why don't you shoot them a message and send them here? Help me out a bit. ;-)
Unfortunately I don't know anyone who codes for Hero Lab. But I know that projects like Deep Magic and Ultimate Psionics have Hero Lab support, so Jeremy from DSP or Wolfgang Baur might be able to point you in the right direction.
I would hit up our new forums groups.pcgen.org or our yahoo group To find a PCGen data monkey.
Course I'm also going to post there also. :)
Also Talk to Steve Russell of Rite Publishing on running a good kickstarter campaign
Paul Grosse
PR Silverback
PCGen Project.