AOO provoking AOO

[Craig1234]

Couldn't remember if an AOO can or cannot provoke a subsequent AOO and couldn't find it in the rules.

Example: NPC moves out of a square threatened by PC provoking an AOO. PC then opts to shoot NPC with her shortbow from a distance of 5 feet (which as a normal attack would trigger an AOO from NPC). In that case, does NPC get the AOO against PC or is there no subsequent AOO triggers?

Thanks, just can't remember.

[fretgod99]

Yup. AoO can provoke AoO. For instance, if you try to trip or disarm somebody via an AoO, but you don't have the Improved feat, you still provoke.

And yes, this can conceivably lead to AoO chains.

EDIT: However, without the Snap Shot feat or a similar ability, you can't make an AoO with a bow. AoO must be melee attacks.

Combat wrote:

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack

[Craig1234]

Forgot about the bow, but presuming its melee so I can clarify further, is there any hard end to the chain or does AOO just keep going until someone doesn't trigger it?

[Bardez]

It keeps going until you run out of AoO usable (i.e.: Combat Reflexes hits your DEX bonus and you can make no more AoO).

[Kazumetsa_Raijin]

AoO's can trigger off of AoO's, depending on the circumstances of course. It'll just keep going until it cannot be triggered/fueled any further, or someone just gets tired and stops : P

[Craig1234]

thanks, that's kind of what I thought but wasn't sure enough to stand by it last night.

[Craig1234]

I just updated one of my players on the topic and he reminded me of one other question that came up last night. In general casting a spell causes an AOO; however, they were suggesting that spells with duration of "instantaneous" were so quick that they neither provoked an AOO nor could be interrupted, therefore did not need any concentration check. My thought was that the effect last for only an instant, but that the AOO and possibility of interruption came during the casting movements before the effect, and therefore did still provoke AOO and possible interruption. Everyone agreed that longer duration spells all triggered the AOO, and concentration checks if needed.

Which is correct?

[Paulicus]

It doesn't make sense to me that if you leave yourself open enough to provoke an attack from an opponent, that you still have the reflexes to take advantage of their opening left attacking your opening (batting uncanny dodge or something like it).

I'll probably run my games with the idea that you can't usually make AoOs when provoking AoOs. Then again I have a number of changes I'd make to the system.

[Nefreet]

Swift and Immediate action spells don't provoke.

Duration has nothing to do with it.

Fireball provokes just as easily as Barkskin or Summon Monster.

[Sniggevert]

Craig1234 wrote:

I just updated one of my players on the topic and he reminded me of one other question that came up last night. In general casting a spell causes an AOO; however, they were suggesting that spells with duration of "instantaneous" were so quick that they neither provoked an AOO nor could be interrupted, therefore did not need any concentration check. My thought was that the effect last for only an instant, but that the AOO and possibility of interruption came during the casting movements before the effect, and therefore did still provoke AOO and possible interruption. Everyone agreed that longer duration spells all triggered the AOO, and concentration checks if needed.

Which is correct?

Quickened spells that are cast as swift action does not provoke AOO's (or FF which is an immediate action).

Duration has nothing to do with whether there is an AOO or not...it's solely casting time.

EDIT: And ninja'd by the bird...

[thenovalord]

Paulicus wrote:

It doesn't make sense to me that if you leave yourself open enough to provoke an attack from an opponent, that you still have the reflexes to take advantage of their opening left watching your opening

Indeed. Its bonkers

[Craig1234]

OK, so regarding the spellcasting AOO, you mean if the "casting time" is swift or immediate, then there is no AOO - and that includes spells which are normally longer but have been quickened to swift. Correct?

[Suthainn]

Correct, casting time is all that matters for provoking AoO.

[claudekennilol]

Nefreet wrote:

Swift and Immediate action spells don't provoke.

Duration has nothing to do with it.

Fireball provokes just as easily as Barkskin or Summon Monster.

I know most abilities that are swift or immediate say they specifically don't provoke, but where it is it called out as a blanket rule that they don't provoke?

[Sniggevert]

claudekennilol wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Swift and Immediate action spells don't provoke.

Duration has nothing to do with it.

Fireball provokes just as easily as Barkskin or Summon Monster.

I know most abilities that are swift or immediate say they specifically don't provoke, but where it is it called out as a blanket rule that they don't provoke?

Changed Nefreet's bolding, might clarify for you.

Swift or immediate actions are not immune from provoking.

Spells with a casting time of a swift or immediate action ARE called out as not provoking.

Will add PRD quote in a moment.

EDIT:

PRD wrote:

Cast a Quickened Spell

You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

[claudekennilol]

Sniggevert wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Swift and Immediate action spells don't provoke.

Duration has nothing to do with it.

Fireball provokes just as easily as Barkskin or Summon Monster.

I know most abilities that are swift or immediate say they specifically don't provoke, but where it is it called out as a blanket rule that they don't provoke?

Changed Nefreet's bolding, might clarify for you.

I misunderstood. That clears it up, thanks.

[Talas Leviann]

Paulicus wrote:

It doesn't make sense to me that if you leave yourself open enough to provoke an attack from an opponent, that you still have the reflexes to take advantage of their opening left attacking your opening (batting uncanny dodge or something like it).

I'll probably run my games with the idea that you can't usually make AoOs when provoking AoOs. Then again I have a number of changes I'd make to the system.

As someone who has studied swordplay for 20 years and has been in multiple martial weapon battles (both professional and for fun) AOO provoking AOO makes perfect sense. While moving through a space that you could threaten with your weapon you attack me. However, the process of swinging your weapon has precursor movements that a trained eye can catch. This allows me to notice your planned attack, possibly where it is intended, and prepare myself accordingly. If that is to take the offensive and strike at an opening I know you will leave than I can take that risk.

[Horselord]

I think of AOOs provoking AOOs like a game of Magic: the Gathering...

Every action goes on the stack and when the last action is placed they all go off in reverse order.

[Kazumetsa_Raijin]

Horselord wrote:

I think of AOOs provoking AOOs like a game of Magic: the Gathering...

Every action goes on the stack and when the last action is placed they all go off in reverse order.

It always makes me think of Dragon Ball Z :D

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Bardez wrote:

It keeps going until you run out of AoO usable (i.e.: Combat Reflexes hits your DEX bonus and you can make no more AoO).

The glorious sight of two "Come and Get Me" Barbarians each with Mythic Combat Reflexes must be mentioned here.

Even better if they are both doing just enough damage to break each other's DR. You can get 50 attacks in per side real quick (under 6 seconds), with no one really taking any damage.

[shroudb]

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

Bardez wrote:

It keeps going until you run out of AoO usable (i.e.: Combat Reflexes hits your DEX bonus and you can make no more AoO).

The glorious sight of two "Come and Get Me" Barbarians each with Mythic Combat Reflexes must be mentioned here.

Even better if they are both doing just enough damage to break each other's DR. You can get 50 attacks in per side real quick (under 6 seconds), with no one really taking any damage.

i would just imagine it like those asian action movies where the two duelists look each other in the eye, have a 10minute combat in their mind, and then do 1 actual hit in the end^^.

only that in the barbarian version the two dudes are like 100kilos more than the asians and instead of calculating the movement they just scream to each other:
-COME AND GET ME BRO
-NO YOU
-NO YOU
-NO YOU
-...

[kinevon]

Horselord wrote:

I think of AOOs provoking AOOs like a game of Magic: the Gathering...

Every action goes on the stack and when the last action is placed they all go off in reverse order.

There is one AoO trigger that doesn't, quite, work like this. Greater Trip.

Gotta make a successful Trip attack, then the target provokes AoOs from everyone who threatens him...

Discussion has occurred on whether the trip target is still standing when the AoOs go off, or is prone.

There was also discussion on the tripper using his AoO from Greater Trip to trip the target again, provoking another round of attacks...