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So, which of these comes ahead? Here's what each one of the characters provide you over the other, compared at level 20.
BRAWLER PROS
- Doesn't require 13 Int.
- Acrobatics, Sense Motive and Perception as class skills.
- Doesn't require 13 Int.
- Unarmed Strike progression.
- Improved Unarmed Strike.
- Brawler's Flurry (hot dang).
- +4 to AC/CMD with light armor (dodge bonus).
- Knockout.
- Brawler's Strike.
- Awesome Blow.
- Close Weapon training.
MARTIAL MASTER LORE WARDEN MONSTROSITY PROS
I think the Brawler wins thematically, of course, but the Lore Warden's higher CMB, identification utilities, extra Combat Feats and free Combat Expertise are really interesting. Also, for the Lore Warden, you can pick up a masterwork Buckler for a quick and dirty boost to AC even if you are nonproficient.
On the Brawler's side, Brawler's Flurry pulls a lot of weight and it probably packs more damage and has access to a slew of interesting style feats thanks to Imp. Unarmed Strike. It can also go SADder, focusing on Wisdom and combat stats without needed to put 3 points on Int.
Welllll. They end up coming out with the same number of feats. Sort of.
Brawler's flurry equates to 3 feats (G/I TWF) and he get's Improved unarmed strike for free.
Being able to choose the 3 feats is definitely better but the fighter get's to ignore the Dex requirements like the Ranger can which is one of the ranger's best things.
Obviously getting combat expertise is important for combat maneuvers so that holds weight over Unarmed Strike, but IUS does open up grappling.
Next the Lore Warden get's an extra 2 skill points that can be added to knowledge checks but the Brawler just get's 2 extra points for whatever he wants.
Also keep in mind that the Brawler will have an easier time bypassing DR due to Brawler's Strike.
The Lore wardens damage could potentially be outweighed by Close Weapon Training but he still pulls ahead in attack.
Forgot about the two extra points!
Also, remember the Lore Warden can pick up Penetrating Strike vs. DR either as a permanent Combat Feat or as a Martial Mastery thing, and, also, the Lore Warden can use any kind of weapon.
I also forgot that the Brawler has some very nice FCB's compared to the mehish Fighter ones.
All in all, I think the Martial Master Lore Warden comes out ahead because it interacts better with items, but I still want to hear more options.
Penetrating strike isn't a huge boon in the lore wardens favor due to the fact that the brawler can pick it up as well for his close weapons.
Also. Another thing you forgot to mention. The Brawler has a good Reflex save.
Also the Brawler can get a cheap boost to his attack and damage with unarmed strikes due to the Brawling enchantment. +2 to attack and damage offsets the Lore warden's and applies to grappling.
EDIT: One thing you forgot to mention in the Lore Warden's Favor. Weapon Training which also brings up the gloves of dueling. So yes. The Lore Warden Pulls ahead. You know... Unless you want to play an unarmed character...
Penetrating strike isn't a huge boon in the lore wardens favor due to the fact that the brawler can pick it up as well for his close weapons.
Also. Another thing you forgot to mention. The Brawler has a good Reflex save.
Also the Brawler can get a cheap boost to his attack and damage with unarmed strikes due to the Brawling enchantment. +2 to attack and damage offsets the Lore warden's and applies to grappling.
True on Reflex saves. But I also forgot to add +8 save vs. Fear for Lore Wardens.
I'm not sure if Brawling qualifies here, it could be easily matched by a similar enchantment on the Lore Warden's weapon. The LW can have an enchanted Buckler and the Brawler can't though.
Ehhh. I have a hard time viewing the fear thing as a huge boost.
Anyway I agree with that, when I remembered weapon training and gloves of dueling I had already mentally checked off brawling armor as inconsequential.
You don't get a benefit from Weapon Training if we go for Martial Master though!
Oh hey would you look at that. I didn't even notice that you were comboing it with Martial Master. I should pay more attention.
EDIT: Wow it was even in the title...
In that case. The Brawler can also get an Amulet of Mighty Fists(The expensive route) or enchant a close weapon and maintain his scaling damage with it.(Heheheheh tekko kagi here I come)
But if the Brawler goes the Amulet route the Enhancement bonus from the amulet stack with brawling because it's an untyped bonus.
You mean feats only good enough if you can grab them for one time uses?
What would be the list of situationally useful but not that useful to spend a feat slot feats?
Blindfight. If you're a Lore Warden Martial Master, don't take the Maneuver feats, just get Combat Expertise and Power Attack. Use Martial Flexibility to get maneuvers as needed.
Battle Cry(Needs 13 Charisma BAB+5)
There's more but thats all I've got right now.
I'll wait on secret Wizard for that. He actually posted a pretty good list in another thread.
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Martial Flexibility is very good, and both Martial Master Lore Warden and Brawler get it (those are the two things we are comparing right now).
Possible Martial Flexibility packages, assuming Combat Expertise, Dodge, Combat Reflexes and Weapon Focus, Improved Unarmed Attack for Brawlers, as base feats:
- Blindfight, Moonlight Stalker, Shadow Strike for fighting in the dark. Combines well with Nightmare Fist for Fetchling and Tiefling Brawlers. Shadow Strike is there for crits.
- Dazzling Display, Awe-Inspiring Smash, Intimidating Prowess for arena combat. If you have Dazzling Display, replace with Performance Weapon Mastery.
- Improved Grapple, Chokehold, Rapid Grapple for shutting up casters.
- Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Teleport Tactician for killing casters.
- Improved Trip, Improved Drag, Riptide Attack to keep enemies next to your party if you are facing a using a Trip weapon on Attacks of Opportunity. Works for Lore Warden.
- Stand Still, Steady Engagement, Improved Trip/Disarm to keep an enemy at bay while disarming or throwing them prone. Works better for Lore Warden. Pin Down is a good option if you think the enemy may Withdraw.
- Kobold Style, Kobold Groundling and Kobold Flood, if you are Small and have Improved Grapple and Trip (which I recommend for the Brawler), works best with Greater Grapple too. Throw a Medium or Large opponent and ride their faces with a Small character. It's awesome.
- Stunning Fist, Mantis Style, Mantis Wisdom, if you are a Brawler, for Stunning Fist with added DC that can grant more conditions, plus an additional use. I think Mantis Wisdom is not that necessary but I'm unsure how the Brawler interacts with it.
- Mobility, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance - dodge 'em arrows!
- Strike Back, Reach Defense, Sidestep - if the enemy plans to keep their distance, it ain't helping them.
- Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, extremely good for Brawler when Tripping dudes.
- IMPROVED TRIP, TWO-HANDED THROWER, QUICK DRAW AWESOME BUT IMPRACTICAL BUT THROWING DWARVEN GREATAXES THAT TRIP AT FULL BAB FOR A LORE WARDEN IS WORTHY OF ALL CAPS.
Against specific enemy types:
UNDEAD - Sun Striker is awesome if you are going Dervish Dance with the Lore Warden. Torch Bearer bears a mention against Skeletons.
DEMONS - Demon Hunter, notch.
DRAGONS - IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE, IMPROVED GRAPPLE AND SNOUTGRIP, NO DRAGON'S BREATH PLOX.
FLYERS - Wingclipper is stellar, more so for the Lore Warden with its 16-20/3x auto-confirmed Falcata crits.
WITCHES AND HAGS - Witchbreaker?
NONCOMBAT USE OF COMBAT FEATS? ITS TRUE!
Equipment Trick IS A COMBAT FEAT. This is an awesome cheat that can grant you great bonuses like a +10 to Escape Artist (Slip Away Rope Trick), or prevent fall damage (Grab Purchase Heavy Blade Scabbard Trick).
Dedicated Adversary is nice for Brawlers.