Lot going on, need some help...


Rules Questions


Okay, I've got a Blinded (by spell) 4th level Barbarian PC attempting to grapple a 5th level Wizard (Necromancer) NPC whom has been cornered. The Wizard has a CMD of 10 and has Mage Armor, False Life, Displacement and Mirror Image all up and running. He also has the Combat Casting feat and two spells each of Ray of Enfeeblement and Vampiric Touch available to him. The Barbarian is Raging, has Superstition and has a current CMB of +12. He also has claw attacks via Lesser Beast Totem.

I'll admit that there are enough bonuses, penalties and other modifiers that I'm feeling a little overwhelmed and grappling situations have never been my strong suit.

1) If the Barbarian's goal is to defeat the Wizard by whatever means necessary (including buying time for the rest of the group to come to his aid), what are his best options and what penalties does he face in attempting to do so?

2) If the Wizard's escape depends on defeating the Barbarian as quickly as possible while his undead minions deal with the rest of the party, what would he be most likely or best suited to do?

Any advice or clarifications would be appreciated.


I would say that Mirror Image and Displacement do not have any effect on the Barb. Both are Illusions and would require him to see.

As for the rest it all depends on what actions are taken.


Well, being blinded actually helps :) Instead of dealing with displacement and mirror image you have a 50% chance (total concealment) of starting a grapple (if you know which square the wizard is in).

I'd try to grapple, then pin the wizard. If you succeed he would be unable to cast and you could just squeeze him to death.

A nice grapple chart can be found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple


Jinete wrote:

Well, being blinded actually helps :) Instead of dealing with displacement and mirror image you have a 50% chance (total concealment) of starting a grapple (if you know which square the wizard is in).

I'd try to grapple, then pin the wizard. If you succeed he would be unable to cast and you could just squeeze him to death.

A nice grapple chart can be found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple

That was kind of the thought - the Wizard moved and then Blinded him and the Barbarian immediately went to the square on his turn to attempt a grapple (weathering two provoked AoO's to do so), knowing that if he didn't the Wizard might get away from him for good.

Once he successfully starts the grapple, he doesn't have to worry about his miss chances again, does he? What penalties would he take in the grapple/trying to maintain the grapple if blinded? If pinned what options would the Wizard have at that point?


Blinded PC would lose his/her Dex and maybe a STR hit as well. So the CMB may drop some because of a possible str hit. I'm unsure on weather a 50% miss chance would apply because you do not make a roll to hit for a grapple check.

Silver Crusade

If pinned, the only option the wizard has is trying to break the grapple. Good luck with that.


Wiggz wrote:


Once he successfully starts the grapple, he doesn't have to worry about his miss chances again, does he? What penalties would he take in the grapple/trying to maintain the grapple if blinded?

Well, to quote the prd: "Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."

So by RAW I guess the 50% miss chance would apply even after the grapple has been initiated. I would rule differently, but RAW are RAW :)

Wiggz wrote:
If pinned what options would the Wizard have at that point?

Not many. Again quote: "A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell."

Since the somatic component is present in most spells, if the wizard doesn't have a still spell dimension door prepared he's basically helpless. Even then he would have to roll against a pretty high DC...


Tegnaz wrote:
Blinded PC would lose his/her Dex and maybe a STR hit as well. So the CMB may drop some because of a possible str hit. I'm unsure on weather a 50% miss chance would apply because you do not make a roll to hit for a grapple check.

But you don't have any penalties to your CMB. You only take penalties to AC and skill checks for being blinded.

BLINDED:
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.


Tegnaz wrote:
Blinded PC would lose his/her Dex and maybe a STR hit as well. So the CMB may drop some because of a possible str hit. I'm unsure on weather a 50% miss chance would apply because you do not make a roll to hit for a grapple check.

CMB relies on strength, and being blinded gives a penalty on strength based skill checks. Since grapple is a combat maneuver the CMB would stay the same. As for the 50% miss chance, see my previous post.

edit: ninja'd


Jinete wrote:
Since the somatic component is present in most spells, if the wizard doesn't have a still spell dimension door prepared he's basically helpless.

Dimension door is verbal only. Unrelated, but Teleport is also verbal only. Of course, the concentration DC is still really high.


voideternal wrote:
Jinete wrote:
Since the somatic component is present in most spells, if the wizard doesn't have a still spell dimension door prepared he's basically helpless.
Dimension door is verbal only. Unrelated, but Teleport is also verbal only. Of course, the concentration DC is still really high.

So it is. Must remember to check my statements before i post :)

Still, if I was the OP I'd go for the grapple check. It seems like the best option.


I misread thank you for the correction.


Tegnaz wrote:
Blinded PC would lose his/her Dex and maybe a STR hit as well. So the CMB may drop some because of a possible str hit. I'm unsure on weather a 50% miss chance would apply because you do not make a roll to hit for a grapple check.

Yeah, it does. A Grapple check is still an attack roll. After the grapple is initiated, though, there is no more miss chance, so grappling the wizard is a solid strategy.


Also, disregard the dimension door thing, a level 5 wizard can't cast it anyway...


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Yeah, it does. A Grapple check is still an attack roll. After the grapple is initiated, though, there is no more miss chance, so grappling the wizard is a solid strategy.

Why is that? I can't find a rule that states that miss chance doesn't apply once the grapple is initiated.


Wiggz wrote:

Okay, I've got a Blinded (by spell) 4th level Barbarian PC attempting to grapple a 5th level Wizard (Necromancer) NPC whom has been cornered. The Wizard has a CMD of 10 and has Mage Armor, False Life, Displacement and Mirror Image all up and running. He also has the Combat Casting feat and two spells each of Ray of Enfeeblement and Vampiric Touch available to him. The Barbarian is Raging, has Superstition and has a current CMB of +12. He also has claw attacks via Lesser Beast Totem.

I'll admit that there are enough bonuses, penalties and other modifiers that I'm feeling a little overwhelmed and grappling situations have never been my strong suit.

1) If the Barbarian's goal is to defeat the Wizard by whatever means necessary (including buying time for the rest of the group to come to his aid), what are his best options and what penalties does he face in attempting to do so?

2) If the Wizard's escape depends on defeating the Barbarian as quickly as possible while his undead minions deal with the rest of the party, what would he be most likely or best suited to do?

Any advice or clarifications would be appreciated.

Identifying the correct square to attack requires a DC 20 Perception Check, unless the Wizard is using Stealth, then it is Stealth+20. Some smart things for the Wizard to do use Stealth and put some distance between him and the Barbarian. He might cast Grease on himself.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Identifying the correct square to attack requires a DC 20 Perception Check, unless the Wizard is using Stealth, then it is Stealth+20. Some smart things for the Wizard to do use Stealth and put some distance between him and the Barbarian. He might cast Grease on himself.

I appreciate the comments thus far. For brevity's sake, let's assume that the Wizard moved and then cast Blindness and then the PC responded on his turn by moving and attempting to grapple the Wizard in the square he had been in at the end of his turn. 50% miss chance but he succeeds and then successfully initiates a Grapple.

The Displacement and Mirror Image have no effect on anything at this point.

I assume the Blindness no longer has an effect on the grapple has been initiated.

The spellcaster can attempt to cast a spell, which he does so successfully, using Vampiric Touch on the Barbarian.

The Barbarian then successfully pins the Wizard.

The Wizard can effectively do nothing after that unless he has Stilled spells prepared or a spell lacking a Somatic component.

Sound right?


The Barbarian should have to make a DC Acrobatics check for moving his full speed while Blinded over smooth ground to avoid falling.

Blindness still has some effect after the grapple is initiated, a penalty or something. I forget. But no more Miss Chance.

In both cases, the Wizard needs to make a casting defensively check vs the Barbarian's GMD.

But, yeah, I think you pretty much got it covered.

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