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Ahoy, fellow Pathfinders!
An interesting discussion came up in my PFS lodge a couple weeks ago that I'd like to follow up on here. One of our GMs was reviewing the swarm subtype and noticed that it seems as if, as-written, swarms can't change their shape—that they're always a 10-ft square. Now, this goes against the way I've always seen swarms played, but in the discussion I was persuaded that he had it right.
Which strikes me as odd, since it seems pretty clear to me that swarms are intended to be able to change shape. If it's correct (a) that they're supposed to be able to reshape but (b) that, as-written, they cannot, then this seems worth an FAQ or errata to clarify.
(In the meantime, unless I'm persuaded otherwise, I'll be running my PFS swarms as unshapeable, since I'm persuaded that's rules-as-written and since I believe in erring on the side of the generous rules interpretation in organized play.)
But maybe I'm just missing something! Curious to hear your thoughts.
<Swarm subtype>, relevant text in bold.
A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature. A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent's space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
In our discussion, several folks were leaning on that last line in an attempt to establish that all swarms are shapeable. Argument: The text mentions "a large swarm", this must refer to size-Large, all typical swarms are at least size-Large. Therefore all typical swarms must be completely shapeable.
But the argument doesn't quite work, because the "large" here does not refer to size-Large. Rather (1), as its position shows, it refers to the "larger swarms represented by multiples of single swarms" in the previous sentence. And (2) this is confirmed by the fact that "large" is not capitalized, since it is convention to capitalize creature size labels (as is shown at the start of the same paragraph with Tiny and Diminuitive). So (2a) if the line *were* just a poorly-placed rule intended to cover all swarms, it would have to read: "The area occupied by a Large swarm ..."
Thoughts?
:-)
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For Large size swarms I agree that they can't arbitrarily take up any 4 squares they want, and I think this is intentional (otherwise they would be more dangerous).
Please note that they can still occupy areas already occupied by other creatures or objects and any large creature can still squeeze into a 5' wide hallway.
Yep! Considerably more dangerous.
My question comes from the fact that I've always seen swarms played as completely shapeable—any 4 squares you want as long as they're contiguous. And when swarms show up in published adventures the tactics text sometimes seems to assume that they're shapeable. And in the Bestiary pawn box, you don't have a Large-size swarm but four small-sized icons ... which seems to suggest shapeable.
So maybe all of these indicators are incorrect and swarms aren't supposed to be shapeable, but it took me by surprise!
In 3.5, swarms were explicitly shapeable.
Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.
That text is not present in Pathfinder swarm rules. As most of the PF rules are a straight adaptation of 3.5, I'd be forced to conclude that was an intentional removal. I'm not sure why - probably because it makes it easier to run them? I've always done it the 3.5 way, but as far as I can tell it's not RAW.
For Large size swarms I agree that they can't arbitrarily take up any 4 squares they want, and I think this is intentional (otherwise they would be more dangerous).
Please note that they can still occupy areas already occupied by other creatures or objects and any large creature can still squeeze into a 5' wide hallway.
Yep! Considerably more dangerous.
My question comes from the fact that I've always seen swarms played as completely shapeable—any 4 squares you want as long as they're contiguous. And when swarms show up in published adventures the tactics text sometimes seems to assume that they're shapeable. And in the Bestiary pawn box, you don't have a Large-size swarm but four small-sized icons ... which seems to suggest shapeable.
So maybe all of these indicators are incorrect and swarms aren't supposed to be shapeable, but it took me by surprise!
All of the swarm minis produced by Wizkids were small sized. Beyond that, I'll be interested to see what comes of this conversation.
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In 3.5, swarms were explicitly shapeable.
Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.That text is not present in Pathfinder swarm rules. As most of the PF rules are a straight adaptation of 3.5, I'd be forced to conclude that was an intentional removal. I'm not sure why - probably because it makes it easier to run them? I've always done it the 3.5 way, but as far as I can tell it's not RAW.
Good to know. Thanks!
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I have been following the malleable way of playing swarms (based on other people not by 3.5itis) ... that said, pawns and minis being small is likely due to their needing to share space with other minis and may or may not be due to intent.
Now I am not as sure which is right... ah well, I'm used to that. :-)
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The fact that Pathfinder Pawns for swarms usually consist of four individual Small-sized pawns tends to indicate the shapable option.
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I also ran into this recently. I had always run then shapeable, but upon reviewing the swarm rules, that appears to be another holdover from my 3.5 assumptions. In pathfinder swarms must take up 10' blocks. The reason the minis are smaller is because 3.5. The malleable part only refers to larger swarms, which take up multiple 10' blocks. The minimum size is still 10x10.
It makes swarms a little less dangerous, which I think is a good thing. Automatic damage and save vs status effects every round to the entire party, plus most swarms being immune to 3/4 of the players is nasty. Having them nobody able to spread out means the PCs will have a chance to minimize that.
Also what makes a swarm is being a roiling mass of critters in one big heap, being able to spread out in weird configurations seems counter to the idea of being a swarm. I can understand the argument for intelligent swarms to spread out to attack more targets, but the majority of swarms are mindless.
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It is indeed a holdover assumption.
But when I see it happen in PFS (and I do, a LOT), I just shrug.* Swarms, imo, SHOULD be allowed to form their shape. If someone wants to argue that's a house rule and it's not allowable in PFS, the comeback is a PFS GM is not only allowed but expected to make judgement calls about what is and what is not RAI. And the GM's decision is final. Don't like it? There's a whole forum right here where people will love to hear you complain :)
*= For the record, in PFS I run them as 2 x 2 squares. I just don't see the need to "correct" GMs who don't.
Interesting. If a swarm can't be shaped, technically it might actually have to squeeze during movement. That aspect seems a bit silly, but I guess it could be imagined as a "traffic jam" in the swarm.
I've seen a number of large-sized swarm minis. I don't know if they're new/old/Wizards/Paizo though.
I've always played them as shapeable. The only time they've really been a problem in my groups is when the are fire-resistant (one module threw a fire-immune ooze swarm at 1st-2nd level character o_0), and rarely if they fly. The nice thing about swarms is they'll usually leave you alone if you run, so they're not always a necessary fight.
As to why they might not spread out, it would make sense that numerous mindless (or nearly so) organisms that are living so closely together as to be considered one creature would hold close to each other, and the natural outcome of such behavior would be an approximately round colony. Kind of like how water forms in spherical droplets from surface tension.
A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.
How can it do that if it has to stay in a 10x10 square?
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The conflict between "This is the Rules" and "This is how I've seen them played" is easily explained by the old 3.5 rules. My spouse commented that even James Jacobs ran them as shapeable at PaizoCon.
Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that would not be particularly dangerous in small groups, but can be terrible foes when gathered in sufficient numbers. For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. It makes saving throws as a single creature.
Many different creatures can mass as swarms; bat swarms, centipede swarms, hellwasp swarms, locust swarms, rat swarms, and spider swarms are described here. The swarm’s type varies with the nature of the component creature (most are animals or vermin), but all swarms have the swarm subtype.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous.
COMBAT
In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity.
Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.
The "COMBAT" section that contains the line saying a swarm is shapeable is still mostly present, with additional information, but that line is removed.
Also good to note that the Troop subtype does have language making it completely shapeable.
I have them not reshapable. So my mini is an X shape that sits on the interior lines of the 10 x 10 square.
So... their kinda like Swarmstikas?